More like since its inception. Have people forgot that before the US invaded Vietnam and Korea, they invaded everything west of the colonies? That they played a major role in the genocide of hundreds of nations? And that when they were beginning to wrap up that process, they started exporting it to other land masses?e_dog wrote:Fuck the US military! for the past sixty years they've been a force for global oppression, at least.
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Well, I was engaged in a debate. I can't deal with the cult of niceness in our culture. Here we are talking about a genocidal military force, and people are worried about me being cordial. Biting our tongues isn't going to end it.doreen peri wrote: eyelids.... imo comments like "prove it" sound argumentative.
The comment was, basically, saying that it's human nature to revere people who commit atrocities (having first set out that there is some connection between our hired killers and warriors in other cultures, no matter what their role really was), and the general impact of statements like that is to diffuse any resistance to atrocities. The US military is committing atrocities, and it needs to be stopped. No amount of LovingKindness™ is going to change the fact that thousands of Iraqis are going to be killed because we're too busy deciding how (not even whether) to have discourse about the fucking matter.
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So you can name an exception. So could I. But exceptions prove the rule.stilltrucking wrote:I suppose I was thinking about people like Pat Tillman. He sure did not need the money.
I'm not passing judgement. I'm recognizing the fact that they're doing things that are wrong. I'm not saying they're evil. It was you who brought up "bad apples".I appologize if I sound condenscending. But I was so sure about somethings when I was you age. But I guess I am not as sure of things as I used to be. I just can't pass judgement on every soldier in the military. Some of them are just young and don't know better. Some if them are just not as smart as you.
And frankly, "don't know better" or "not as smart" doesn't justify their actions. Most of them do know better. Most of them are intelligent. They're doing things that are wrong, and should be prevented from doing so.
I think a lot of what you were saying was directed, if not towards me, for me to see. It's a song and dance we've done before. You're older, you know better now that nothing's right or wrong and I'll grow old and cynical too, at which point I'll be able to comfortably accept atrocities in the knowledge that they're not here.I was really arguing with Cecil eyelid.
did not mean to hijack your post
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In my experience, and that of every veteran I know, the primary motivation of most soldiers in the US military is personal gain. Yes, there are other motivations, even for those who hope to gain, and probably a lot of them who don't believe in the atrocities they're committing trick themselves into believing they're doing something right—if we talk about atrocities, we can't commit them.jimboloco wrote:these guys are not mercenaries by nature
they are fueled by a number of motivations
but are not as calloussed as you would believe
I'm not depriving anyone of anything. Most soldiers join for college money. That's not my fucking fault.to deprive a person of their basic integrity is the ultimate in dehumanization, and that is what i get from your attitude about the suckers who are inside the us military today
Because it's a fucking traumatic experience? Going to war, or simply being subjugated to a rigid hierarchy in a violent institution, is traumatic.why is there anyone who comes out of the military distraught, if we only go in so serve our own best interests
That doesn't excuse them from responsibility for their actions.afterall there are plenty of those types yes
but they do so by rationalizing thhe military mission and therefore suppress the dissent
within
I don't know what you're talking about. I don't think they should do anything, with the exception that they should quit committing horrific acts of violence against strangers in foreign lands (and against domestic partners and youth at home).but there are some who debate, dissent, disagree after being involved in the war(s), who come home angry, commit siucide, harm others, become anti-war protesters,
better that they should all be "well adjusted" and go golfing?
Well, why don't you start up this magical force of unicorns and gummi bears? It certainly doesn't exist in the US military. I'm not even anti-military, I should point out. I'm not even against the use of force to accomplish certain goals. What I'm against is an empire and its selfish subjects running around the world shedding innocent blood, endlessly for centuries.while i can appreciate an anti-military sentiment, i have to distinguish for myself between an abuse of power and what is potentially acheiveable, a critical usage of military force for peacekeeping, de-escalation, and in cooperation with an intenational community
So what you're saying is that not only should the US military personnel have pride in what they're doing, but they should continue to be mercenaries for the unjust causes they serve?besides, how are you gonna entice a kid to sign up, even in the best of times, with the best of executives, without incentives to pride, honor, duty to country, and educational incentives,
afterall this is what it should be about
Um. Maybe you missed the part where I oppose what they're doing.maybe you should join up and find out about the complexity of those who have served
I have looked very deeply. I'd encourage you to actually read and comprehend what I write before you come in assuming I said the opposite of what I'd said.i would encourage you to look more deeply
Here we go again. I know you feel like you're more wise in your post-modern refusal to take a strong stand against something you feel is very, very wrong; on the other hand, I have atrocities to stop.stilltrucking wrote: As one old zombie to another
I am trying to remember what it was like to be twenty again.
I was very sure of everything.
Sometimes I think eyelid would make a great president. I am so tired of that wishy washy wimp we got now.
How was what I said "dehumanising"? I'm just recognizing the primary motivation for most US soldiers (and here's a hint: it's more or less the same as the primary motivation for most US civilians), and recognizing the horrific reality of the actions they commit, regardless of motivation. They should be stopped. Earlier you mentioned Shambhala, and compassion. I don't see what's illuminating about making excuses for mass murderers. I don't see what's compassionate about allowing them to continue to do horrible things while recognizing their complex emotional conditions. I don't think it does anyone in the US military any good to do anything other than recognize their role as hired killers for a genocidal empire, and to do everything in our power to remove them from that role.jimboloco wrote:i appreciate your injection into the original question
it opened up and challenged
i just don't like ny kind of dehumanising prospect
it's bad enuf allready
And for that matter, there is the little matter of nearly a million random brown people who've died at their hands in the last few years, and the millions who've died over the last decade and a half. What about compassion for them, and illumination on the subject of their complex emotions about being subjected to unyielding trauma and untold horror, completely unhindered by the population from which it sprang—while we quietly, meekly debate the feelings of the poor murderers.
Our victims don't have time for us to work out the difference between good-and-evil and right-and-wrong. While you folks are busy accusing me of condemning people and stripping them of their humanity, those people are doing things that are unquestionably wrong, and actually removing people's humanity by murdering them.