Lies and Damned Lies

[XPress]

any organism will seek reward and avoid pain

That's my view also, we learn (not necessarily from an individual, but from experience) to lie, when we are young.

It's one of the reasons I see a liar as a coward, as he's more concerned with avoiding the "pain" than with his responsabilities, and his "role" in "society".

He's weak.

I think there was a comment earlier in the thread about liars hating liars, I don't know if they do or not, but it would make sense, they must be aware of their actions, and their weakness, and I'd think in many cases that must eat them up inside, so I would imagine them as often being self-loathing.

Not that they get any sympathy from me, as it's their choice, they were weak, they were cowardly, they chose to decieve, for personal comfort, rather than acting for the greater good, so if it does eat them up inside they deserve it.

Pain is over rated, as a child we fear it, but as we grow older most of us begin to realize that "pain" is as often a warning sign, as much as anything else.

I think that's why some of these people can over come a lot of "pain", you know, the "mind over matter" stuff, because it often doesn't hurt as much as we think, it's just there to tell us "Hey, stick that hand any nearer the fire and it's going to get burnt off"

As a child we're learning, we're finding out where our thresholds are, so we're often afraid of the "pain", and this, in many cares might lead a child to lie, but an adult should know better, he should know the consequences of his actions, and therefore shouldn't be afraid to take his "pain" when he has too, for the greater good of everyone else.

[Doreen Peri]

Sure, we learn to lie to avoid pain.

But we teach ourselves to do it. As I said, at 2 years old it is obvious to even a brain that young that if we get in trouble, our parents disapprove and punish us and that's painful.

So, we ourselves as children teach ourselves the easy way out of the inevitable pain .... we tell a little fib with the hopes that our parents won't know we are lying so they won't punish us so we don't feel the pain of their disapproval.

AND... we ALSO learn that when we get caught lying, we made it even worse for ourselves because our parents are even MORE angry with us.

Why is that? Because parents do NOT teach their children to lie. They teach their children to tell the truth.

Truth is honorable. Lies are cheap and ugly.

Also, it is true that we also learn from example which is why parents shouldn't lie to their kids. I don't lie to mine.

But learning to lie doesn't come from that. It is our brains as children logically coming to the conclusion that if we tell a little fib, we may be able to save ourselves from pain.

Bottom line is, this is a rather silly debate.

Here's the truth.

Everybody has lied and I would venture to guess that everybody first lied as a child. Lying is the hard way to go and it is detrimental to our character.

To tell the truth is the honorable and EASIEST way to live. We can't respect each other or ourselves when lies are involved.

Truth is one of the most important ways to approach life.

........

But still, if you asked me today, "How are you doing?" I'm going to answer, "Doing fine, thank you."

[Lightning Rod]

how can you say that our parent's don't teach us to lie? In the early behavior experiments by Skinner, the experimenter is in the role of the parent. He delivers either reward or punishment depending on the behavior of the child/rat.

in the laboratory, when the desired behavior is displayed (like telling the truth or following the maze successfully) there is a reward. When the wrong behavior is displayed, there is a shock or some punishment. What is rewarded is repeated, what is punished is not. Classic operant conditioning.

Outside the laboratory, oftentimes the undesired behavior is rewarded. Rewarded, thus repeated.

You can call a lie any color you want. A white lie or a little lie or a convenient lie or a polite lie, But a lie is a lie. It's when someone says something that they know is untrue.

Honesty is a good goal. So is practicing what we preach.

when somebody asks me how I'm doing, I'm apt to say 'lousy, what's it to ya?'' It's a much better conversation starter.

[stilltrucking]

How can I say I learned to lie on my own? Pretty darned easy. Here let me say it again.

I learned myself to lie. My parents had to teach me to respect the truth. I lied about everything when I was a kid. I was the lying-ist son of bitch in the world.


They say Skinner became a lot more interested in what was going on inside his head after he had a stroke.

The times have changed Clay. Psychology is not what it was in your voodoo college years. They got machines that can light up your brain and tell you what you are thinking and where you are thinking it. Consciousness is no longer a black box. I am exaggerating but not much. Hard to keep up with the latest scientific mythology these days.

As for Skinner and his scientific method...

"Every couple of thousand years a little genie comes along and pisses on the pillars of science" ---My First Two Thousand Years by The Wandering Jew.

If you had a young child who asked you about pot, asked if you had ever smoked it. Would you lie to them? For their own good?

[Lightning Rod]

If you had a young child who asked you about pot, asked if you had ever smoked it. Would you lie to them? For their own good?

Absolutely not. Not if it was my child. Lies for someone's 'own good' is the most patronizing notion I can imagine. Any child of mine that becomes curious about drugs gets education, not deception. What am I missing here? How you teach a child to be truthful by lying to them?

[stilltrucking]

So if Deputy Dan came to your kid's school and gave a lecture on 'Just Say no to drugs" and your child came home with a million questions about drugs you would answer truthfully. You would tell them that pot is a harmless recreational drug but hard on your lungs. It seems like a lot of pressure to put on a kid.

But I am not a parent, never have been. So what do I know?

Have you ever lied to your children about anything?

[stilltrucking]

that was a bullshit question clay
sorry
everybody lies to their kids at sometime or another.

[Lightning Rod]

speak of bullshit questions, here is the classic logic problem about lies and the truth:

There are two kinds of people on a mysterious island. There are so-called Honestants who speak always the truth, and the others are Swindlecants who always lie.
Three fellows (A, B and C) are having a quarrel at the market. A gringo goes by and asks the A fellow: "Are you an Honestant or a Swindlecant?" The answer is incomprehensible so the gringo asks B: "What did A say?" B answers: "A said that he is a Swindlecant." And to that says the fellow C: "Do not believe B, he is lying!"

Who is a Swindlecant, B or C or both?

[Doreen Peri]

I like to tell my daughter the truth.... that there's no pot smoking in my house.

....

I've never been good at logic problems like that, I can honestly say, so I'm not going to even attempt an answer.

[Lightning Rod]

there's no pot smoking in my house either
am I an Honestant or a Swindlecant?

this discussion raises the question:
if someone mouths untruths because they are deluded, does that constitute a lie?
is someone who is expressing a delusion a liar?

I'm a bit more charitable with this type of lie. You have to feel a little bit sorry for someone who lies without even realizing it. It indicates either ignorance, stupidity or self-deceit.

It's sort of like the difference between first and second degree murder. One is deliberate with pre-meditation, and the other is due to ignorance or insanity, drinking or rage of the moment or accident. The results are the same of course. In the case of murder, a life is ended. In the case of a lie, trust is ended.

[mtmynd]

Billy Bigg was standing in the check out line of the store when a woman got in line behind him. He turned around to nod a hello and was taken by surprise at what he saw - the woman was holding a baby and Billy had never in his life seen an uglier baby... I mean he was almost speechless.

The woman acknowledged his 'hello' nod but was curious why his smile turned sour all of a sudden. "What's the matter mister?"

"Uhh... are you the mother of this baby? "

"I sure am!" the woman proudly replied. "Why do you ask?"

"I have to tell, m'am, that this baby is the ugliest baby I have ever set eyes on, beyond any doubt, and I've seen one heck of a lot of babies in my life.." his voice tapering off.

"You son-of-a-bitch! Fuck you, asshole! Who in the hell do you think you are talking about my baby like that? You should be ashamed of yourself... " the woman was understandably angered and her anger was upsetting everyone in the store.

"But m'am, I only telling you the truth... that is the ugliest baby I have ever seen" Billy told her looking right into her eyes..."and I'm not gonna to lie to you about something like that."

"FUCK you! Why didn't you just keep your fucking mouth shut? Who the hell wants your goddamn opinion? I certainly don't want to hear shit like that. Fuck your honesty! It hurts..." the woman wiping tears from her eyes with the back of her hand.

Billy feels a shake of his shoulder and looks behind him. "Mister, you need to leave the store. Just leave your merchandise right where it is... we don't want your business. Thank you..."

Billy Bigg saw most everyone in the store staring at him, glaring at him, looks to kill that he could feel all over like some kinda voodoo doll. He made his exit while mumbling... "but I'm an honest guy.."

Poor Billy Bigg thought he was an honest guy, but he failed to understand that those vile comments he got from that mother were more honest than his comments which could have been prevented is only he had kept his mouth shut. No lie.

[Lightning Rod]

this fable demonstrates the essence of dishonesty, it's Aesop on lala drugs.

Billy Bigg WAS being honest. Being honest doesn't necessarily mean that the baby was ugly, it was just Billy's honest opinion. Truth Nigger doesn't get too many christmas cards.

All babies are cute to their mothers just like all lies are cherished by their inventors.
I think all babies are ugly, they look like little albert einsteins for the first couple of days.

(and the manager was stupid for missing the sale. These are hard times)

and keeping your mouth shut can be the most exquisite lie, the lie of omission

[XPress]

Poor Billy Bigg thought he was an honest guy, but he failed to understand that those vile comments he got from that mother were more honest than his comments which could have been prevented is only he had kept his mouth shut.

There's a huge difference between diplomacy, and a lie.

Had Billy kept his mouth shut, he wouldn't have been lying.

It wasn't his honesty that hurt the women, it was a lack of tact.

Now, had he lied, and told the mother that the baby was beautiful, like I'm sure a lot of other people might have done, and she'd entered it into a 52 state, live and direct, television extravaganza, broadcast to an audience of 250 million world wide, on the basis of those comments, and then they'd brought her baby on stage, and there was an audible gasp, as people gazed upon the ugliest baby ever born, and told her such, the pain of that truth, in front of that global audience, would have been a lot harder to bear, than had Billy been honest, in the first place.

Little white lies, are just about acceptable, I guess, depending on context, and diplomacy, or keeping your mouth shut, is acceptable, depending on context, but a straight out deciet is never acceptable.

[XPress]

You have to feel a little bit sorry for someone who lies without even realizing it. It indicates either ignorance, stupidity or self-deceit.

I'm going to put on my Mr. DevilsAdvocate hat here...

Is ignorance a defense?

& are the really ignorant?

Did they have an opportunity to discover the truth?

Were they capable of doing so?

Didn't they try?

Did they suspect they might be wrong?

If they had an opportunity to discover the truth, if they were capable of discovering the truth, if they didn't try to find the truth, and/or they suspected they might be wrong, then ignorance is no defense.

Only the truly mentally impaired are ignorant of the truth, everyone else doesn't have that defense.

I can accept the accidental lie "I'll be there at 7pm" and then the car breaks down, and they arrive at 8pm.

To me that wasn't a lie, they had no way of knowing the car would break down, so what they told me wasn't the truth, but it was an accident.

But the "ignorant lie"?

All to often that's really just the lazy, arrogant lie.

It's a "well, I don't know for certain, and I can't be assed finding out, so if it's wrong, it's wrong, but I have contempt for you anyway, so it doesn't matter if I sold you a bunch of grade A manure" sort of lie.

[mtmynd]

...

but a straight out deciet [sic] is never acceptable.

arguably, that's what the word 'lie' means... deceit. all other so-called lies fit into the category of bullshit.