The Creationist Museum in Louisville, KY

[mtmynd]

Hi, mousey-one. Another fulfilling reply from your heart that took time to fully digest. There is one thing that begs for an answer -

You wrote: "...so am I to understand that you don't 'as such' believe in an omnipotent being who is originator of 'we'?"

Other than believing things on a mundane level (2+2=4, or "Cec', I'm going to the store. I'll be back in awhile."... or the Sun is the center of our solar system... things, these are things I can easily believe in. I know them.

But we speak of God(s), when we speak of an 'omnipotent Being' or 'the words of God' I am unable to do the strict belief thing. This is due to many levels of consciousness that I have explored and there are levels that transcend our current belief systems.

One cannot truly believe without having experienced what is believed. The experience that makes belief a fact must occur before one believes. Religions ask us and some demand that we believe in God (Allah, Dios, etc) without ever asking us to experience this God. Religions use God as a weapon that will harm us and send the non-believer to the fires of a Hell. Christianity demands of it's followers that Jesus is the Lord God incarnate. Islam demands of it's followers to 'believe' all that it's imams say regarding Mohammed's teachings. In either case it's a do-or-die in misery affair.

I am unable to live my own life according to these principles. I do not believe that Jesus or even Mohammed intended for their words to frighten but rather to enlighten. Fortunately there are a few (amongst millions) that have been enlightened by their words... but not by the religions that have been built in the names of Jesus or Mohammed.

Eastern religions have been around far longer than Christianity and Islam. I, for the most part, appreciate the attitude behind the words. One is not required to be anything other than themselves. It is through this Self that one finds the same enlightenment that Buddha experienced, one finds the same 'Christ' within that Jesus experienced, and one finds the same 'divine experience' that Mohammed found upon a rock.

This level of transcendence, by the very name, is an experience that is possible for all, but is not transcendent until the experience becomes personal.

One must keep in mind when speaking of religions, that Buddha was not a Buddhist, Jesus was not a Christian nor was Mohammed Islamic. The religions conceived in their names are but shadows of the people they purport to speak for... sometimes good, other times they cast an evilness... the duality of yin/yang. But these names I have referred to (and thousands that came both before and after them), became enlightened... the transcension of duality where all becomes One... a level of consciousness that offers liberation from the duality that encompasses our daily lives. This is true bliss. It does not speak, it does not demand, it only gives and asks nothing in return. The experience has no gender, has no form but only what may be called a 'spirit-ness' that brings one closer to godliness.

I would be a fool to ask you to believe these words I have written. It would refute what I had stated earlier about belief. But I will ask that when you feel what we call 'love' do you connect that with a religion? Do you feel like a Christian or Jewish or Islamic when you see beauty? hear beautiful music? read comforting words? Or do you feel a connection to something much larger than your ego?

One should never believe until they know that which they believe personally.

[Enough, eh? Time's moving toward sleep, again]

Thx, mousey-one, for the conversation!

Cecil

[stilltrucking]

Have you any right to complain when you made a choice and stolidly stuck to it knowing there would be possible consequence? We reap our just rewards yes? No?

I don't have much interest in theology anymore.

I was merely giving what might be loosely defined as my "Christian Testimony"

Like I said Jesus is just all right with me.

Or as George Fox said

"There is one, even Jesus Christ, that can speak to thy condition":

I am talking about the Christ within. Not the Christ without. Not the Christ of George W Bush. But my own personal chocolate Jesus

Funny thing about Walter Kaufmann after he converted to Judaism he found out that he was born a Jew. All four of his grand parents were Jews but his Parents converted.

This Jew thing for me is not about religion. Quakers and Jews have never been big on proselytizing. Being a Jew is a racial thing for me Mousey1, as far as I know it depends on your mother's mitochondrial DNA. That little bit of precious germ plasm passed down from mother to daughter in an unbroken chain that has been traced back to seven women who lived in Europe thousands of years ago (that is for Ashkenazi Jews.)

But I am as ignorant about Judaism as I am about Quakerism so this could all be wrong.

According to legend Jesus had a Jewish mama. It don't matter who the father is, it is matrilineal, which I find strange because the religion is so patriarchal.

Mousey1 I love you
and the purest form of love I have learned is between a sister and a brother.

Hang on to your faith,
and light a candle for me after I am dead if you are worried about my immortal soul.

This is bad mousey1
I got to save my eyes, hell of a headache yesterday from spending too much time staring at this screen.

Sorry about this mess I would try to clean it up later.

I been reading The Careful Writer, I think it will help me more than the bible right now.

I won't delete this one mousey1

I deleted the one to your art log because I was thinking about the time you said I pander to women. And I thought you would think I was pandering to you.

But you also said I think too much.

[stilltrucking]

lordy lordy
that was a swamp of a post
but I can't do anybetter right now
I cut and pasted it so much it lost all coherence
dont even try to make sense of it.

but I am not going to delete it.

mousey1 if I had been raised among Jews it would not be an issue so mcuh with me.

But I was raised in the black ghetto next to Little Italy. Being a Jew was just something to fight about.

But I suppose that is why I like Spinoza so much even though I can't hardly understand him. He was an outcast among Jews, a pariah. I am a jew with out jews mousey to quote philip roth.

A Jew without Jews, without Judaism, without Zionism, without Jewishness, without a temple or an army or even a pistol, a Jew clearly without a home, just the object itself, like a glass or an apple.
Philip Roth

Zlatko thinks I glory in it. I do not. It is an accident of birth and nothing else.

But when you get to talking about the Christ Jesus it is hard not to talk about Jews.

Not judaism but the people is their a difference?

[stilltrucking]

I liked your reply Cecil.

I know you were not talking to me but I liked it.

This level of transcendence, by the very name, is an experience that is possible for all, but is not transcendent until the experience becomes personal.

You know i have only had one dream about Jesus and he appeared as a Afro-American. He never said he was Jesus in the dream but when I woke up I thought that who my dream was about.

He was a very cool dude, somebody I would like to hang out with maybe share a bottle of Mango wine with him.


Or maybe it was Osiris.

For in that sleep of death what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil

[stilltrucking]

But in going through those pearly gates do we really want to see ol' Hitler staring us in the 'face', swapping stories of how he was just horribly misunderstood and if only he'd known better sooner well things would've been different? If he's up there, or in there, or over there, wherever 'Heaven' may be, I'm not entirely certain my goodwill would be too forthcoming, that I would be all warm and fuzzy with forgiving. (Go ahead, call me harsh, I'll bear you no grudge. )

Mousey1 I am not sure how to say this, I mean I don't now how formal logic works. But I have a problem with your "We" in that statement. I wish you had said "I" NO WE mousey1. That is a "YOU" statement. That is what you say. I don't go there. H*tler is dead. I am more concerned about his legacy here in this best of all possible worlds than I am about his punishment in some other world. Did you know that not one Jew was killed in the WTC? They were all warned not to show up for work that day. Did you know that the guy who owned the WTC building 7 was a jew? Did you know that FDR was a Jew? Who killed Alan Berg I wonder? Surely it was not H*tler.




I been thinking about winky's lately.


Proverbs 10:10

KJV: He that winketh with the eye causeth sorrow: but a prating fool shall fall.



BBE: He who makes signs with his eyes is a cause of trouble, but he who makes a man see his errors is a cause of peace.

As Long as I am quoting scripture I like this bit too. It is from Rabbi's blog

Can you imagine booing in church? How about blowing a raspberry in your synagogue or mosque?

Imagine this: You are sitting in synagogue on a Saturday morning during the Torah reading. Imagine further that you actually understand what is being read, and, because you do, you hear the reader chanting, “When God brings you to the Land to possess it, He will thrust away many nations from before you…and you will smite them—you shall utterly destroy them… break apart their altars; smash their pillars; hack down their sacred trees; and burn their carved images” (Deuteronomy 7:1-5). And imagine that you realize that this is divinely sanctioned genocide, and that you are opposed to such genocide. So you boo the Bible. Out loud. Out loud loudly...

Or imagine you are in church and the reading is from the New Testament and Jesus is damning the fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season. Or he is threatening his opponents with eternal damnation. Or St. Paul is ranting about keeping women silent and in their place. And you boo. What is the worst that could happen? OK, eternal damnation, but what is the second worse?

Or imagine you are in a mosque and the Koran or imam is calling for the killing of the nonbeliever, or the fellow Muslim who believes a bit differently than the imam does. And you boo. What is the worse that could happen? OK, don’t think about that. Just boo.

http://rabbirami.blogspot.com/2007/04/booing-bible.html

I will leave it up to you to punish H*tler Mousey1.

I owe you mousey1, I owe you my truth at least. I have not arguement with you.

Keep the faith mousey1.

But I never met a fig tree I did not love.
I liked Cecil's reply a lot. I wish I had said it as well.

[stilltrucking]

I really want to delete these posts mousey.

I don't know what H*tler has ever done to you personaly Mousey but I am first generation american born to Jewish refugees. I was born in 1940. H*tler was alive during my life time. I remember the war I think. My grandmother and grandfather never heard from thier relatives in Poland again.

Walter Kauffman is just ok with me.

I do not believe that anybody will suffer after death nor do I wish it.

So I am going to say to you I will burn in hell with h*tler if what you say is true. If I have any complaints you will never know. Just "be well, do good work and keep in touch."-- garrison kiellor

My grandmother would never speak H*tler's name. She would only say "him" and than she would spit.

[mousey1]

stillt, delete your comments if you wish, but only if you don't stand by them, otherwise leave them be. You sweat too much the little stuff. I suppose I do too though. Don't worry about your comments, I take no offense in them and even if I do, so what.

anyway...

First off, let me assure you that none of my following comments are defensive or argumentative in nature or intent. We are engaging in friendly discussion here. No rancor felt or intended.

Please don't fret my use of 'we', it is not a sign that I'm all awash in 'group think'. I think for me and me alone. I included others and was a 'we' only momentarily because I was painting a little scenario where I deduced, and only 'deduced' mind, that others might be a little nonplussed by seeing Hitler there. 'Tis all. Group think is for the Borg...and I ain't one of those...yet!

As for my choice of Hitler as the bad guy in this scenario, I merely chose someone that most all have heard of. I could've said Clifford Olsen, I could've said Jeffrey Dahlmer, I could've said, I could've said and on and on it goes... I have no more or less against Hitler than anyone else, certainly there are many who have more against him than I, but that goes without saying, or so I thought. No, I got no personal vendetta or agenda here.

Yes, Hitler's dead, that's the point, that was the point of what I was saying. After death do you think it's okay dandy in the afterlife, if there is an afterlife, to hobnob around with those who showed in life that they were, by most people's standards quite evil? That's my point. I don't want to hang out with the dude, now or ever. It seems to me he still would give off vibes that I would want no part of. Given all that I know now I can't see that feeling changing, but maybe it will.

Let me rephrase my question. Given the possibility that Heaven does exist somewhere would it bother you to know that, 'Hitler' (or fill in the blank with some other equally bad bad ass) is there, his 'robes' as white as snow? Clean slate, all forgiven. Would it still feel like heaven? A chance to commune together and chatter and rehash past transgressions and perhaps laugh at what silly, impetuous humans each of us were?

I believe in forgiveness for all and sundry, no exceptions, but what if in their heart of hearts, in the very deepest center of their being, they never felt remorse, not the slightest bit of contrition? Forgive them anyway?

God knows each and every one of us and what we are capable of. I doubt he will misjudge any of us. As far as you, stillt, I doubt your misdeeds are unforgiveable. If you feel that you are in the same boat as Hitler, well, I don't really know what to say, except perhaps simply that I think you're being harder on yourself than you need to be.

And also, bear in mind that my notion of hell is not literal flames licking at my literal ass. I think of hell as more a state of 'being' where your wants are unquenchable, where there will be much 'weeping and gnashing of teeth'. Of course I don't know for certain. I just know that I prefer to go to a state of being called 'Heaven'.

I'm not vindictive and hateful. Everyone is deserving of their just rewards, whatever they may be. Fucking up, stumbling through life a victim of horrible circumstance that you really had no choice in and not being able to rise above is not grounds, in my book, to sentence to a further hell past this one in which they now live. God is wise enough to know the difference I would think.

Well, I'm beginning to blather and repeat myself.

I'm just sharing some of my thoughts. Discussing and bandying about here.

I consider myself to be a Christian, but I'm not what you'd call above reproach...I fuck up plenty. I sin, I lust, I want, I need, I desire, I do plenty that many would call 'sin', I leave it up to 'God' and my own conscience to decide. No one's perfect, no not one, each of us shall see at day of reckoning just how short of 'the mark' we fall. I think 'God' will cut us more slack than we realize, than we give 'him' credit for...and 'he's' not above lending a helping hand either. One can play the blame game, the labelling and name game or just get on with the livin' as best they can.

We all have hard rows to hoe...some much harder than others, is it silly nonsense to think that one final day they will find real ease? I shall always trust in that, it is one thing that helps to keep me sane.

[stilltrucking]

Mousey1 I been thinking alot about thinking lately. Thinking about what I am thinking when I am posting to S8. I been thinking about my emotions.

I hate the feeling when I think I am wining a debate or aruguement.

I would hope that this is not an arguement or a debate. But a conversation.

If it is a comfort to you that is good enough for me.

What do I care where you put H*tler. You punish the hell out of him if it makes you feel better. I leave his punnishment to you.

I don't loose no sleep over him.



I hope I am done now.

[mousey1]

mt, thank you. I don't think our thinking is as far apart as perhaps it seems. My mind is open (most of the time), at least I think so. I can quite nicely accept what it is you're saying. You have not, however, touched on the existence of real evil, where does that come in? Is it just part of the whole, with as much right and need to be as any 'thing'?

People live in their 'human' skins and exist as if that's all there is. 'God', the Bible, something within us, tells us there's more, much more to this than what we are now. So then, the loss of 'life' is not the be all and end all and so our fears, any anger we feel at all about worldly injustices are perhaps for naught, perhaps only for the 'experience', and for me, at least, what an experience it is! If one can just put aside the heavy-hearted notions that constantly assail and replace them with a splendid hope... Very hard to do I know when one looks around at the state of the world we live in. And yet, one must always hope...

As far as this

One should never believe until they know that which they believe personally.

A lofty ideal. I suppose 'tis true. Hope and faith are my belief and in that I strive to constantly "believe personally". I believe certain things to be true, certain things sight unseen, perhaps I might even say that my beliefs are in flux, in a state of moving to and fro depending on my mood, my strength, my sense of clarity. Hard to wrap and tie and bow my believes as tidily as your sentence inflects. But what you mean is probably correct.

[stilltrucking]

we must have been posting at the same time
I did not see your posts until after I was done with mine.

[mousey1]

stillt, I see the kindness behind your words and I appreciate it.

I'll always be as happy as I can be and I wish the same for you.

Being happy must be worked at. Not all the time, but some times.

and yes, apparently we're posting at the same time.

[stilltrucking]

I deleted the bit about wanting you to be a happy little mouse

I guess you saw it.

Thanks mousey

You are wonderful

[mousey1]

Thank you. Being called wonderful is not something I'll balk at...
though of course I can be as shrill as a twopenny whistle in a gale-storm wind!

[mtmynd]

ahh, mousey-one, my friend... you seem to enjoy picking my mind, as empty as i try to keep it.

you wrote: "you have not, however, touched on the existence of real evil, where does that come in? is it just part of the whole, with as much right and need to be as any 'thing'? "

real evil as opposed to fake evil?

would you not agree that evil (real or not) is within our own minds? does evil exist anywhere but here on this planet? did evil exist before we humans arrived as homo sapiens to over-populate our world?

of course this does not answer your question so let me write on -

we humans can certainly do extraordinarily frightening acts... enough so that the word 'evil' could be used. our world that we have created is filled with such acts. however, our human-ness will always be divided as to the judgments of such acts. 9/11 shocked the world... pure evil, devilish, hellish... the words were tossed about by millions and millions of people worldwide. but there were also those that cheered the act... supported it... saw it as the proverbial rock that took down the giant.

many other acts appear as 'pure evil.' serial killers easily fall into that group. if anyone supported their behavior, they too might be put away. but rather than describing the acts serial killers have done ('pure evil'), i think it's imperative to see their evil as the result of a twisted mind... the reasons vary but at the core is a mind out of control. these types of individuals are not afflicted by God, but rather a terrible dis-ease, one that eats away at logic, reason, understanding and compassion. the psychological/sociological reasons may vary but as humans we still have a great deal to learn about ourselves (know thyself). even tho we expect more of ourselves, it is obvious that we are currently unable to accomplish that given our humanity is still evolving.

humanity thrives on depictions of our evil minds as it does the opposite - extreme goodness. these qualities are inherent in humans. we love scary stories as we love stories of compassion and goodness. i attribute this to the duality (yin/yang) that sustains (our) life, mind, purpose. it is only when we 'step off the wheel of life' and become one with that which is no longer dualistic do we find not only the evaporation of (our) 'evil' but the notions of what we judge as being 'good.'

so, mousey-one, that wraps up this edition of 'the meanderings of an empty mind.' thank your for you questions and comments. i do appreciate our conversations, truly!

cecil