Lies and Damned Lies

Post by **Lightning Rod** » March 11th, 2009, 9:41 pm

children have an instinctive sense for the truth
only later do we learn to lie

a lie is a deal breaker, like adultery or domestic violence
especially with a child
once you lie to a child
you have lost trust forever

and I'm a child, a poet
once someone lies to me deliberately
they have trouble getting me to return their phone calls
I've got better time to waste

Post by **Doreen Peri** » March 11th, 2009, 9:48 pm

and when your child lies to you, then it's really tough

of course they start lying at 2 years old

"Did you wash your hands for dinner?"

"yes mommy" (mud all over their hands)

It actually starts right about the time they learn to speak.

before 2.

Post by **stilltrucking** » March 11th, 2009, 9:48 pm

children have an instinctive sense for the truth

Sounds good,

I stuck a fork in an electrical outlet when I was pretty young. Screamed like hell, when the the adults came running to see what happened I knew i was in trouble so I said "A snake bit me." Standing next to my uncle in the hospital I peed myself, the nurse asked me who left the puddle I pointed to my uncle.

Hey you a father what the do I know about kids, I was just a liar from the git go, from the time I learned to speak. I

I am very interested in the father of lies. Nietzsche say the church fathers not above lying to save their flocks. THinking about mnaz in sunday school. Seems like we tell children lies to protect them.

But the lies that pollute us most are the lies we tell ourselves.

The most common lie is that which one lies to himself; lying to others is relatively an exception.
Friedrich Nietzsche

Post by **Doreen Peri** » March 11th, 2009, 9:49 pm

then later it's, "Did you do your homework?"

"yes mom"

and "Do you have any change left from the $20 I gave you this morning?"

"No, not really. Maybe a dollar."

LOL

Post by **Lightning Rod** » March 11th, 2009, 9:50 pm

children learn to lie
they aren't born with the talent
wonder where they learn it from?

Post by **stilltrucking** » March 11th, 2009, 9:56 pm

wonder where they learn it from?

Good question.

I think I learned on my own.

No body had to teach me.

It just came naturally.

Post by **Doreen Peri** » March 11th, 2009, 10:00 pm

Children learn to lie because they have brains. And at a year-and-a-half when they learn how to talk, they realize that if they say "NO" to "Did you wash your hands for dinner?" and tell the truth, they will get a spanking or otherwise punished.

So their brain tells them if they tell a little fib, maybe mommy and daddy won't find out and they can avoid the punishment.

That's how they learn to lie. They figure it out.

At 2 years old they're really too young to figure out when other people are lying. All they know is that stuff they say can get them in trouble. So, in order to stop getting in trouble, they have to do one of two things.... either the right thing and obey their parents and wash their hands after playing in the mud pile before dinner or lie and say they did.

*shrug*

Psychology 101.

Post by **Doreen Peri** » March 11th, 2009, 10:02 pm

I think I learned on my own.

No body had to teach me.

It just came naturally.

We were posting at the same time, truckin. Exactly. We all learn on our own. VERY early.

Not saying I'm a proponent of lying. I hate lying. But nobody teaches us how to do it.

See my post above.

Post by **Lightning Rod** » March 11th, 2009, 10:06 pm

my point exactly, doreen

it's a basic principle of operant conditioning

any organism will seek reward and avoid pain

read B.F. Skinner

we teach our children to lie, not only by the lies in our own lives, but because they are trying to avoid pain

the pain avoidance is natural
the techniques used to avoid the pain are learned

Post by **Lightning Rod** » March 11th, 2009, 10:11 pm

maybe children don't quite understand the consequences of their lies
adults should, that's part of being an adult

Post by **stilltrucking** » March 11th, 2009, 10:11 pm

the techniques used to avoid the pain are learned

So you are saying we have to learn to lie?

Sorry not being coy

learned from who?

I think it is instinctive

I think we to learn how to tell the truth

We have to learn to take responsibility for our words

I thought that was what you were saying.

I don't like skinner Clay

not my cup of tea

some prejudice on my part maybe vanity

Post by **Lightning Rod** » March 11th, 2009, 10:15 pm

no! it's not instinctive to lie
it's instinctive to avoid pain
we LEARN to lie as a means of avoiding pain

where do we learn it?
we learn it from our parents
we learn it from our friends
we learn it from the world

one of the earliest lessons that the world teaches us is
that expressing our instinctive natural honesty will cause pain....often

Post by **stilltrucking** » March 11th, 2009, 10:22 pm

It has been over forty years since I have read Beyond Freedom and Dignity.

I was very impressed at the time.

I did a quick google and it seems that he is having a revival.

I guess I do not want to move beyond freedom and dignity anymore

Good thread

I got to go now.

Post by **Lightning Rod** » March 11th, 2009, 10:23 pm

truck, I was averse to Skinner at first
I went to school in a hotbed of behaveiorlists at Denton
and being the contrarian that I am I was resistant
then I realized that psychology was voodoo
but the closest thing to science about psychology was called behavioralism
you can show actual results, it's provable and it works
I don't wanna get all Clockwork Orange on you here, but read Beyond Freedom and Dignity by Skinner.

Post by **Lightning Rod** » March 11th, 2009, 10:24 pm

damn, how did you get that post in there before mine?.....haha

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Lies and Damned Lies

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