Ethical Treatment of Your Employer -- Question
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abcrystcats
- Posts: 619
- Joined: August 20th, 2004, 9:37 pm
OH and Knip, I forgot to say:
THIS part makes so much sense to me! And I've been in those situations too. It's amazing what good leadership can do to raise my desire to work. You see so LITTLE of it, though. That's the trouble.true leadership means getting X + 1 amount of work because the worker WANTS to give X + 1 amount of work
SO, it's ok for leadership to get X+! for X dollars as long as leadership is good at extracting that?
and knowing i'm so eager to fight cant make letting me in any easier.
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whimsicaldeb
- Posts: 882
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I've been meandering through "Eureka Alerts" and found an article that "fits here" and is most interesting. Before you get to see it, I have a quick "2cents worth" to add ...re:Salary/Hourly Wage:
Having worked for both ~ my vote: hourly wage wins.
When I worked for salary I got a 'fancy title' and extra work to go along with the salary. I received the same amount of money each month no matter how many (or little) hours I actually ended up putting in, each month. Consider how much OT the job actually required, and when I calculated it out .. I saw exactly how much I was wasn't making and that was motivation enough for me to go back to an hourly wage position and I've never been sorry since. It's easier for an employer to take monetary advantage of a salaried employee, over an hourly one.
Remember... no one can "use you" without your permission. If you're being used, or feeling used in/about anything - you need to see where and how you've allowed it (not just how they're doing it) and then take actions to stop it. And 2nd; if you wait for someone else to do it for you, you’ll always be disappointed.
Now unto the article ... (it's a goodie! should get the conversation going even more!)
New Study Examines How Role Models Influence Ethical Behavior
01-06-06
By Peg Herring, 541-737-9180
Source: Greg Perry, 541-737-1413
CORVALLIS, Ore. - As the United States continues to grapple with ethical scandals in government and business, researchers at Oregon State University and Texas A&M University are examining the ethical behavior of college students - particularly students' behavior in negotiations.
"Negotiation is defined as the attempt to find an acceptable solution to a conflict between two or more parties," said Greg Perry, an agricultural economist in OSU's College of Agricultural Sciences. "By that definition, everyone is involved in negotiations every day, at work, with family, or in their communities."
Perry and colleague Clair Nixon from Texas A&M University surveyed more than 1,600 undergraduates in Texas, Oregon and Michigan to learn what influence different role models have on the ethical attitudes of college students in negotiation situations.
They found that students whose role models included clergy, Boy Scout leaders, friends and college advisers exhibited less willingness to adopt questionably ethical behavior in negotiation situations. Those whose role models were journalists and coaches tended to be more accepting of questionable ethical behavior.
The authors of the study found college students a particularly interesting target audience.
"They are a fairly homogeneous population, most between 18 and 22 years old, and all going through an important transitional phase in life," said Nixon, the PricewaterhouseCoopers Accounting Excellence Professor at Texas A&M. "Their ethical attitudes are shaped but still open to change. They are facing negotiations for the first time with roommates, landlords, managers, even school officials."
Perry and Nixon asked students to rate the appropriateness of 16 different tactics used in negotiations. Some were traditional competitive bargaining tactics, such as pretending you are in no hurry to reach an agreement or asking for more than what you'll settle for. Other tactics included misrepresenting information, making false promises, and attacking an opponent's network.
The researchers also asked the students to rate the importance of 16 types of role models, from parents and grandparents to employers, coaches and journalists. They found that for most students, role models can be highly influential in conveying ethical standards, in both good and bad ways.
"For example, 96 percent of the respondents named parents as role models, but parents' effect for good or bad seems to vary a great deal," Nixon said.
However, friends - the second most commonly identified role model after parents - seemed to help raise most students' ethical standards.
"Journalists as role models seem to elicit more questionable ethical attitudes in students," said Perry, who heads OSU's Department of Agricultural and Resource Economics. "Coaches generally also seem to have a negative effect on the ethical attitudes of their charges."
"Categories of positive ethical role models include college advisers, clergy, and Boy Scout leaders," Perry said.
In addition, he said, religious individuals seem to be less willing to use unethical methods in negotiating and competitive bargaining.
The researchers tested four major philosophical theories used to explain ethical behavior. Although the theories are complex, they can be described roughly as: 1) "the ends justify the means"; 2) rules-based decision-making; 3) community-based standards; and 4) conscience-based decision-making.
The researchers found that students with strong end-means and community-based ethical philosophies exhibited strong tendencies toward less than ethical behavior. Individuals with strong rule-based ethical philosophy, high levels of religiosity, and those with a cooperative attitude in negotiations tended to adopt higher ethical standards in negotiations.
The complete study, "The Influence of Role Models on Negotiation Ethics of College Students," by Perry and Nixon, has just been published in the latest issue of the Journal of Business Ethics.
Note to editors: PricewaterhouseCoopers is one word.
About the OSU College of Agricultural Sciences: The college contributes in many ways to the economic and environmental sustainability of Oregon and the Pacific Northwest. Its faculty are leaders in agriculture and food systems, natural resources management, life sciences and rural economic development research.
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc ... ethics.htm
----end article
Having worked for both ~ my vote: hourly wage wins.
When I worked for salary I got a 'fancy title' and extra work to go along with the salary. I received the same amount of money each month no matter how many (or little) hours I actually ended up putting in, each month. Consider how much OT the job actually required, and when I calculated it out .. I saw exactly how much I was wasn't making and that was motivation enough for me to go back to an hourly wage position and I've never been sorry since. It's easier for an employer to take monetary advantage of a salaried employee, over an hourly one.
Remember... no one can "use you" without your permission. If you're being used, or feeling used in/about anything - you need to see where and how you've allowed it (not just how they're doing it) and then take actions to stop it. And 2nd; if you wait for someone else to do it for you, you’ll always be disappointed.
Now unto the article ... (it's a goodie! should get the conversation going even more!)
New Study Examines How Role Models Influence Ethical Behavior
01-06-06
By Peg Herring, 541-737-9180
Source: Greg Perry, 541-737-1413
CORVALLIS, Ore. - As the United States continues to grapple with ethical scandals in government and business, researchers at Oregon State University and Texas A&M University are examining the ethical behavior of college students - particularly students' behavior in negotiations.
"Negotiation is defined as the attempt to find an acceptable solution to a conflict between two or more parties," said Greg Perry, an agricultural economist in OSU's College of Agricultural Sciences. "By that definition, everyone is involved in negotiations every day, at work, with family, or in their communities."
Perry and colleague Clair Nixon from Texas A&M University surveyed more than 1,600 undergraduates in Texas, Oregon and Michigan to learn what influence different role models have on the ethical attitudes of college students in negotiation situations.
They found that students whose role models included clergy, Boy Scout leaders, friends and college advisers exhibited less willingness to adopt questionably ethical behavior in negotiation situations. Those whose role models were journalists and coaches tended to be more accepting of questionable ethical behavior.
The authors of the study found college students a particularly interesting target audience.
"They are a fairly homogeneous population, most between 18 and 22 years old, and all going through an important transitional phase in life," said Nixon, the PricewaterhouseCoopers Accounting Excellence Professor at Texas A&M. "Their ethical attitudes are shaped but still open to change. They are facing negotiations for the first time with roommates, landlords, managers, even school officials."
Perry and Nixon asked students to rate the appropriateness of 16 different tactics used in negotiations. Some were traditional competitive bargaining tactics, such as pretending you are in no hurry to reach an agreement or asking for more than what you'll settle for. Other tactics included misrepresenting information, making false promises, and attacking an opponent's network.
The researchers also asked the students to rate the importance of 16 types of role models, from parents and grandparents to employers, coaches and journalists. They found that for most students, role models can be highly influential in conveying ethical standards, in both good and bad ways.
"For example, 96 percent of the respondents named parents as role models, but parents' effect for good or bad seems to vary a great deal," Nixon said.
However, friends - the second most commonly identified role model after parents - seemed to help raise most students' ethical standards.
"Journalists as role models seem to elicit more questionable ethical attitudes in students," said Perry, who heads OSU's Department of Agricultural and Resource Economics. "Coaches generally also seem to have a negative effect on the ethical attitudes of their charges."
"Categories of positive ethical role models include college advisers, clergy, and Boy Scout leaders," Perry said.
In addition, he said, religious individuals seem to be less willing to use unethical methods in negotiating and competitive bargaining.
The researchers tested four major philosophical theories used to explain ethical behavior. Although the theories are complex, they can be described roughly as: 1) "the ends justify the means"; 2) rules-based decision-making; 3) community-based standards; and 4) conscience-based decision-making.
The researchers found that students with strong end-means and community-based ethical philosophies exhibited strong tendencies toward less than ethical behavior. Individuals with strong rule-based ethical philosophy, high levels of religiosity, and those with a cooperative attitude in negotiations tended to adopt higher ethical standards in negotiations.
The complete study, "The Influence of Role Models on Negotiation Ethics of College Students," by Perry and Nixon, has just been published in the latest issue of the Journal of Business Ethics.
Note to editors: PricewaterhouseCoopers is one word.
About the OSU College of Agricultural Sciences: The college contributes in many ways to the economic and environmental sustainability of Oregon and the Pacific Northwest. Its faculty are leaders in agriculture and food systems, natural resources management, life sciences and rural economic development research.
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc ... ethics.htm
----end article
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abcrystcats
- Posts: 619
- Joined: August 20th, 2004, 9:37 pm
Now THIS:
The community does not necessarily dictate morality. Any large group can use their majority influence to change what they call a moral action, but in my opinion, a majority ruling that a behavior is moral, does not make it moral. It might mean, instead, that a whole bunch of people are doing the wrong thing and calling it right.
I see the other one a lot, too -- the end justifies the means. The underground animal rights sector is a good example of this. If I can secretly open the back of a cattle truck and let all the cows headed to slaughter out into temporary or permanent freedom, a lot of people feel that's justified. I've saved animals lives and cost the meat industry a lot of money. But that's breaking the law, interfering with someone else's property rights, and creating unnecessary risk for others (roaming cows. MOO).
This war in Iraq is a good example of end-justifies-means behavior too. If our END is freedom for the Iraqis (the most noble proposed goal, here) doesn't that justify an unprovoked attack, and LYING to the American people about the reasons?
I am not sure what they mean by rule-based ethics, but I think that means that if there's a law that says "do not do this" it means its wrong. That might get you to some place close to morality, but you need a fully-functioning rational brain to go the whole way.
Same for religiosity. Fear of God or hope of eternity goes a long way, but you're still reliant on rule-based (Bible, Koran) ethics to get you through.
Conscience ( which I take to mean something close to "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you") works best for me.
*Never mind the RULE that says my job ends at 8:00 PM, if I've noticed something important left undone at 7:59 and it will take me three minutes to handle it, I'll do it.
I would want someone else to do that for me, so why not?
*Never mind the RULE that says you're only allowed four animals per household. If I can save animal lives by giving them temporary shelter in my home, over those limits, I'll do it. Provided you're not creating a health risk or a nuisance to others, it's good.
I would want someone to incur a little risk if my life was at stake, so why not?
Just a couple examples of where, IMO, conscience works better than rule-based ethics.
And, firsty yes, if someone can inspire me to WANT to work far harder than I ordinarily do, because they make me believe that I am working for something much bigger than my own self-interest (a paycheck) then they CERTAINLY should get it.
I've been in jobs like that. This just isn't it.
is an interesting statement, and it is one I agree with wholeheartedly.The researchers found that students with strong end-means and community-based ethical philosophies exhibited strong tendencies toward less than ethical behavior. Individuals with strong rule-based ethical philosophy, high levels of religiosity, and those with a cooperative attitude in negotiations tended to adopt higher ethical standards in negotiations.
The community does not necessarily dictate morality. Any large group can use their majority influence to change what they call a moral action, but in my opinion, a majority ruling that a behavior is moral, does not make it moral. It might mean, instead, that a whole bunch of people are doing the wrong thing and calling it right.
I see the other one a lot, too -- the end justifies the means. The underground animal rights sector is a good example of this. If I can secretly open the back of a cattle truck and let all the cows headed to slaughter out into temporary or permanent freedom, a lot of people feel that's justified. I've saved animals lives and cost the meat industry a lot of money. But that's breaking the law, interfering with someone else's property rights, and creating unnecessary risk for others (roaming cows. MOO).
This war in Iraq is a good example of end-justifies-means behavior too. If our END is freedom for the Iraqis (the most noble proposed goal, here) doesn't that justify an unprovoked attack, and LYING to the American people about the reasons?
I am not sure what they mean by rule-based ethics, but I think that means that if there's a law that says "do not do this" it means its wrong. That might get you to some place close to morality, but you need a fully-functioning rational brain to go the whole way.
Same for religiosity. Fear of God or hope of eternity goes a long way, but you're still reliant on rule-based (Bible, Koran) ethics to get you through.
Conscience ( which I take to mean something close to "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you") works best for me.
*Never mind the RULE that says my job ends at 8:00 PM, if I've noticed something important left undone at 7:59 and it will take me three minutes to handle it, I'll do it.
I would want someone else to do that for me, so why not?
*Never mind the RULE that says you're only allowed four animals per household. If I can save animal lives by giving them temporary shelter in my home, over those limits, I'll do it. Provided you're not creating a health risk or a nuisance to others, it's good.
I would want someone to incur a little risk if my life was at stake, so why not?
Just a couple examples of where, IMO, conscience works better than rule-based ethics.
And, firsty yes, if someone can inspire me to WANT to work far harder than I ordinarily do, because they make me believe that I am working for something much bigger than my own self-interest (a paycheck) then they CERTAINLY should get it.
I've been in jobs like that. This just isn't it.
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whimsicaldeb
- Posts: 882
- Joined: November 3rd, 2004, 4:53 pm
- Location: Northern California, USA
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I am not sure what they mean by rule-based ethics, but I think that means that if there's a law that says "do not do this" it means its wrong. That might get you to some place close to morality, but you need a fully-functioning rational brain to go the whole way. -- abcrystcats
Amen to that one!
... if I only had a brain!" - Scarecrow, from The Wizard of Oz
great posting abcrystcats; I agree with all you’ve said.
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Marksman45
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abcrystcats
- Posts: 619
- Joined: August 20th, 2004, 9:37 pm
then baby you're getting ripped off.And, firsty yes, if someone can inspire me to WANT to work far harder than I ordinarily do, because they make me believe that I am working for something much bigger than my own self-interest (a paycheck) then they CERTAINLY should get it.
if only we could get our employers to give us more money by giving them upbeat speeches about groceries and oil prices. fuckers.
and knowing i'm so eager to fight cant make letting me in any easier.
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hester_prynne
Sometimes I look around at the people where i work who are making big bucks and it gets to me. They seem to spend alot of time chatting about their most recent qvc purchases....basking in their peter principled dead end spots....
But then when i'm on the floor and doing my job and I know that what I'm doing is helping a frail or disabled elder transition off the planet peacefully and comfortably then I'm totally satisfied and content, even though the pay scales are unjust and unfair and all that.....
Perhaps i'm a fool to see richness beyond the fucking money, I dunno....
I don't care either.
Floatin my own boat I guess....
H
But then when i'm on the floor and doing my job and I know that what I'm doing is helping a frail or disabled elder transition off the planet peacefully and comfortably then I'm totally satisfied and content, even though the pay scales are unjust and unfair and all that.....
Perhaps i'm a fool to see richness beyond the fucking money, I dunno....
I don't care either.
Floatin my own boat I guess....
H
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Lightning Rod
- Posts: 5211
- Joined: August 15th, 2004, 6:57 pm
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hest,hester prynne wrote:Sometimes I look around at the people where i work who are making big bucks and it gets to me. They seem to spend alot of time chatting about their most recent qvc purchases....basking in their peter principled dead end spots....
But then when i'm on the floor and doing my job and I know that what I'm doing is helping a frail or disabled elder transition off the planet peacefully and comfortably then I'm totally satisfied and content, even though the pay scales are unjust and unfair and all that.....
Perhaps i'm a fool to see richness beyond the fucking money, I dunno....
I don't care either.
Floatin my own boat I guess....
H
I have long had this secret desire to go into hospices and play an alto flute for the residents as they are dying. Is that charity or necrophilia? I don't know, but I have that urge.
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