Studio8 - Uniting the Arts

NOTE from Doreen Peri- I moved this discussion from a poem thread in Creative Writing.....If I could add a post to the beginning of the thread to explain, I would, but I don't know how to do it, do I'm adding a comment to the beginning of LR's post to explain... Maybe we can have a discussion about the usefulness of poetic forms here... thanks - Doreen Peri...

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doreen peri wrote:Cool poem. Nice job.

I'm not familiar with the hybridanelle form.

Trying to find a pattern to it.

Can you describe the form so I can figure it out?

Thanks much!

(did a google search but still can't find a definition of the structure)

I think it's related to the mongrelelle and the bastardelle
I use the form quite a lot

haha... no it;s a real form like a villanelle.

I found it.

http://allpoetry.com/column/show/1086828

Now I just have to figure it out. Well I don't HAVE to but I might want to. I call the forms "poetry puzzles" and as you know, I'm a big fan of puzzles. It's a good mind exercise.

doreen peri wrote:haha... no it;s a real form like a villanelle.

I found it.

http://allpoetry.com/column/show/1086828

Now I just have to figure it out. Well I don't HAVE to but I might want to. I call the forms "poetry puzzles" and as you know, I'm a big fan of puzzles. It's a good mind exercise.

poetry by the numbers is almost as interesting as painting by the numbers

what makes this a good poem is not that it conforms to an arbitrary pattern
it's good because it says something
it communicates a feeling

I'm not against form, doreen
I play the blues, that's one four five
I play chords that start with 1-3-5
I like 5/4 time
but 17/19 time is a bit absurd

what makes this a good poem is not that it conforms to an arbitrary pattern
it's good because it says something

Right. I agree. To a degree.

See? And you thought you'd get an argument from me?

But the forms are also very useful to the craft. It's good for you. And you know a poem is more than what it says. The phrasing, the rhythms, the meter, the techniques used in the language, all are important parts of the craft. The forms are exercises of those skills.

One of the most important things about poetry to me is how it sounds, how the verbiage works. Sometimes it doesn't matter what the message is, what it "means." The music of it is more important.

And the forms are musical structures.

......
EDIT-

You edited your post as I was posting. You added something about music as I was writing about music.

What I was replying to was only what I quoted. that's all you had up there when I replied.

Jinx.

doreen peri wrote:

what makes this a good poem is not that it conforms to an arbitrary pattern
it's good because it says something

Right. I agree. To a degree.

See? And you thought you'd get an argument from me?

But the forms are also very useful to the craft. It's good for you. And you know a poem is more than what it says. The phrasing, the rhythms, the meter, the techniques used in the language, all are important parts of the craft. The forms are exercises of those skills.

One of the most important things about poetry to me is how it sounds, how the verbiage works. Sometimes it doesn't matter what the message is, what it "means." The music of it is more important.

And the forms are musical structures.

......
EDIT-

You edited your post as I was posting. You added something about music as I was writing about music.

What I was replying to was only what I quoted. that's all you had up there when I replied.

Jinx.

you two crack me up ...it will take me the rest of the evening to get it all back where its supposed to be...

OK. I'll split the conversation about poetic forms into another thread. Didn't mean to hijack the thread, mingo. It's a valid topic, tho.

Lightning Rod -

Well you can scoff all you want at poetic forms. But they have been viable poetic devices for centuries. Had GinnyKay not mentioned the form, you wouldn't have even known there was one! Sonnets and villanelles and haiku and other structures play major roles in the world of poetry and are well respected by most everyone who studies poetry. You don't have to write the forms yourself in order to appreciate them. It certainly isn't anything like painting by numbers, though I imagine painting by numbers could also teach a person studying painting a lot about color, contrast, light, shading, balance, design, etc., the fundamental tools of the craft for painting. It's vital to study the tools to any craft you pursue. Studying sonnets, villanelle, and other formats, is a very good exercise of skills of the craft.

I like that! Now I want to study it so I can try it myself.

Our respective approaches to poetry are different, doreen. I think that form follows function and you think function is incidental to form.

Of course the perfect poem is one that marries both profound meaning and clever structure.

I learned most of the major poetic forms and structures when I was in high school and college. Luckily I managed to forget them, but these structures still insinuate themselves into my work. They are influences.

I don't think that a lecture is in order here about attention to craft. You know very well how diligently I work on my craft. But at some point there is a dividing line between art and craft. Art is elevated craft. Art is craft made sublime. Forms don't say anything. Forms are the envelope. You can lick it perfectly and place the stamp in just the right place, but the message inside is what ultimately counts. When you get the message, you throw the envelope away.

I wasn't lecturing you.

I was talking to you.

doreen peri wrote:I wasn't lecturing you.

I was talking to you.

you are still fighting with the envelope

get to the message

I think the subject is:

form over function?
or
function over form?
fact or artifact?
art or artifact?

I'm not fighting with anything or anyone, including you.
No matter how often you quote me, this will be true.
You can fight with whoever you want, except for me.
This is my poem for the day. Tweedle dee dee.

Form creates itself for me.
I mean, i'll have a line dancing in my head, to a certain spontaneous beat and go from there.
Then later I might find out it had a notated form that I have never heard of. .
I wonder, when was the first poetic form created? Why? How? What were the circumstances for naming a form in the first place? Part of analysis maybe? Intellectual overdissections?
I mean, I'm fine with form, but I don't ever really start out a poem with a form in mind.
Is this something I as a wannabee writer should do?????
H

hester_prynne wrote:Form creates itself for me.
I mean, i'll have a line dancing in my head, to a certain spontaneous beat and go from there.
Then later I might find out it had a notated form that I have never heard of. .
I wonder, when was the first poetic form created? Why? How? What were the circumstances for naming a form in the first place? Part of analysis maybe? Intellectual overdissections?
I mean, I'm fine with form, but I don't ever really start out a poem with a form in mind.
Is this something I as a wannabee writer should do?????
H

This is exactly my point, hest.
form follows function

I guess it's all about vocabulary
idioms are forms
and limericks
the blues
ballad forms
riffs, licks

these are all just tools to say something
but first you need something to say

the republerick is a gut forme.

so is the irs tax rebate form.


poetic form its noetic form.


the form of Poetry is form(less)ness.