death penalty

[Doreen Peri]

StillT - as I said before, the truck image had nothing whatsoever to do with you... you just keep on truckin', man! You're alright by me! I don't think you're aiming to run anybody over with your rig. It was just an illustration..... as far as the Jam goes, today's supposed to be the last day but it will be a Miracle if people stop posting! LOL! What a long great trip it's been! I wish I had had more time to participate... I don't know if I'm going to be able to lock the darn gig up and throw away the key. It would be like the death penalty! *smile* But I probably will lock it in the morning, just to let you know, so jam on through the night, ok?

Judih, you're the greatest! You were inspired... and rightly so! It's been beautiful! Thank you! How's your boy doing?

Laurie - I've been trying to be clear about my position on this because to me, it's pretty much black & white. I NEVER believe the death penalty is justified. No matter what. Yes, the DNA evidence which is now state-of-the-art and admissable has saved quite a few and this is much better. But imagine how many people states have put to death in error prior to this? It's appalling to me to think about it. I have another topic in mind which would be a companion to this one... I'll probably post it tonight. As far as spending life in prison, sure, it probably isn't a picnic, but people get institutionalized and that becomes their world. Many repeat offenders repeat on purpose because they WANT to get caught and go back. Despite the poor conditions in some US prisons, it's a life where they don't have to make any decisions, really. They are told when to eat, when to sleep, when to work, etc. It's actually an *easier* life than out here. That's why they want to go back.

[ellipsis]

my stance:

i think that death is a pretty pathetic punishment. "here, let me teach you the right way to be by killing you. there you go. good human." uh huh.

if the overall sentiment is that killing is wrong, that killers are wrong, then killing to exemplify that killing is wrong is pretty shoddy. however, i'm not totally against killing one in order to prevent multiple deaths. lesser of two evils, and such.

i mean, once the prosecutor puts one killer to death, then who's going to put the prosecutor, also a killer, to death for killing? and so forth...

yes, i danced around that subject by giving arguments that reflect how dizzying the entire death sentence argument is. i actually have a few opinions, but i don't think they'll fit in here. they're part of other tangents that will only sway the subject of this thread.

[abcrystcats]

Despite the poor conditions in some US prisons, it's a life where they don't have to make any decisions, really. They are told when to eat, when to sleep, when to work, etc. It's actually an *easier* life than out here. That's why they want to go back.

Yes, that's interesting. I read a short story about exactly that, not too long ago.

The death penalty is a less-than-ideal solution to a problem, and I am out of arguments. I wonder what Kari has to say about all this? You have convinced me, and I wonder if she, also, is convinced?

[stilltrucking]

theory and practice
the risk of taking one innocent life voids the death penalty for me
but there is a difference between right and wrong and justice
it seems a pity that a cold blooded thrill killer should be freed to kill again. and that has happened

I got no anwers, we seem to be going around in circles about the execptions to the rule.

[stilltrucking]

StillT - as I said before, the truck image had nothing whatsoever to do with you

the difference between cowboys and truckdrivers,
cowboys have the bull shit on the outside of their boots

somebody blew the whistle on that case I mentioned in texas, they got two years to figure out how to keep him locked up.

my remark about the feeding tubes makes me nauseous, it is hard to go down a twisted dark path to pursue an intelectual arguement, I imagined the guy totaly paralized and the warden saying no we were are not going to kill you but you are going to lay there and rot for as long as we can keep you alive.
my little excursion into marat sade which I have never read but scares the bahjeezus out of me. just how sadistic can I be, I don't want to go there but what the hell this is all about writing, but let somebody else write it, there is a good market for that stuff.

[Doreen Peri]

The death penalty is a less-than-ideal solution to a problem, and I am out of arguments. I wonder what Kari has to say about all this? You have convinced me, and I wonder if she, also, is convinced?

I *did*???? really?.... damn, girl, you don't KNOW how happy this makes me..... I convinced you??? I love ME! LOL! I'm sooo happy I could say something that made sense. I'm not too good with prose. I used to write a lot of stories and prose stuff but I forgot how to do it and my vocabulary is a little weak at the moment because I've been writing in a ridiculous language for a while now... computer code! html. It's the new universal language but that's another thread. Thank you, Cat, for that. I feel like my thoughts have been acknowledged which is sometimes a struggle for me, or has been in the past. Ghosts. Or something. This is one of my life's works. If I can see the death penalty eliminated before they burn me at the stake (which is my request), I will have succeeded because you should only burn a body after it's dead on its own accord. I have other issues I work for. But this one is a big one. I'm glad the gloriousOne brought it here. I regret not having had enough time to participate in a similar discussion on AC. Thank you for your message, btw. I will get back to you soon with the name of the scholar.

ellipses! --- How great to see you here! ... missed you..... yeah, I totally agree with you..... exactly.. well said! ...

stillT- do you know what I love about your posts? Sure you do. You're wide open like hittin' the damn highway at 4am, trying to get there early enough to have a coupla hours to yourself. Yer a truckdriver, dude, hittin the internetstupidhighway with, pedal to the medal....... gotta love it! ... and not only that? I can't figure out intellectual arguments either or the difference between theory and practice, voids and deaths of right and wrong, when it comes to justice.... and I'm still trucking..... too

[stilltrucking]

an old word jammer from an eastern town
a cock eyed swayer that is over the hill

jammed out
a good feeling at the end of a long haul
kind of like when you have done a good days work and you know your sleep will be sweet

sweet dreams sis

[abcrystcats]

Well, Doreen, you know how I feel about people interfering with the life processes of other creatures. It's a BIG deal to me. A very big deal. If we can keep these people (however nuts they are) locked up for good, then that is, by far, a better solution than killing them. I still think they ought to be able to do away with themselves. What you do with your own life should be your decision, to the greatest extent possible.

I sometimes forget that we are dealing with ideals on this website. We are thinking about the way the world OUGHT to be. How it IS ... that's another, far more complicated and horrifying story. Killing, killing, killing. It's all around us. I would give my life to make it stop.

Gandhi fasted every time the killing started, and since he was revered and loved all over the world, his fasts had an effect. God, how I wish there was a person like him alive today.

************************

Yes, I DO want to know the name of the scholar, or the website, or whatever, that convinced you that Jesus never lived. Yes, I have heard this theory before, and I think it's time that I look into it, although I don't think I'll ever believe it. It seems to me that this is someone's shortcut to dealing with the whole problem presented by Jesus and all his Pauline replications. I think that if we believe Jesus never lived, then we have to dismiss most of history, as well. There is ample evidence for his existence, 2000 years ago.

I often ask my dad this question about his genealogy research. "But how do you KNOW?" We had numerous leads to sort through for two of our immediate ancestors. Often, there is no proof, but ample CIRCUMSTANTIAL evidence linking certain events together. Sometimes you just have to go with your gut. All of the proof for Jesus is circumstantial, but you have to compare it to other evidence for other historical figures living at about that same time. There is more proof for the existence of Jesus than there is for the existence of Cleopatra, as I said.

So, let me know ...

It is snowing here in Colorado. I have been a little disappointed by the lack of snow this winter. It falls, then burns off. I need to move to colder climes ...

[stilltrucking]

I don't loose a lot of sleep worrying whether Jesus ever lived,

all this talk about abortion these days, I don't want to go into the details but let me say I was so wraped up in my own pleasure, I tripped out and lay there inside her whille my erection faded away, as a result the rubber slipped off, and she got pregnant, she was not a woman to make such a decision lightly, she had two children that needed her more and no money no insurance, it was just something she felt she could not deal with, and I think she had an absolute right to make that decision, but it is hard for an intelligent woman, not just smart but a woman of spirit and mind. a beautiful woman. so she suffered through an abortion because she had a boy friend who was a total fuck up. My point is that it weighed heavey on her, and when I said, "You know I love you but Jesus loves you best" I was only quoting the lyrics from a song. But Jesus helped her deal with the mess I had created in her life. What fucking difference does it make if He existed or not. Why don't we ask these questions about Buddha or any other cosmic heroes?

[stilltrucking]

I can answer my own question, we don't have Buddhists on the radio and tv twenty four hours a day tring to cram it down our throats. Are there Buddhist tel-evangelists.

am I getting off the subject, I ramble a lot, but we have all these people saying abortion is murder I suppose there is some relationship

how many abortions are too many, I knew another woman in california she had six abortions and she was barely 30, not trying to judge but that seems a lot.
More than whether Jesus ever walked this earth, I think about Mary and her Y chromosome, I think men are an evolutionary experiment by women, and we could go the way of T Rex

[Dave The Dov]

Thank God I live in a state where the DP has never been enacted because it was wrong all the way.
_________________
Honda CT70 Trail

[abcrystcats]

Stilltrucking, abortion is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible. Child abandonment and infant exposure are not mentioned in the Bible either. Anywhere. I asked this question on Arcanum, where there are lots of fundies. They had to admit there is no specific Biblical injunction (except "thou shalt not kill") even remotely related to abortion. It is purely a political issue that the so-called "Christians" have taken up.

I have completely separated my perception of Jesus from my knowledge of Christians in this country. The two have nothing whatsoever in common.

We were discussing the death penalty on Arcanum. One of the most viciously pro-death penalty people contributing to the thread acccidentally happened to mention that she was a Christian. About a dozen people responded by quoting Bible verses against killing and judging anyone -- even criminals. The most touching was the reminder that Jesus assured the two criminals crucified alongside him that they would be with him in Heaven, that day. I do not like to generalize about a group, but most fundie Christians do NOT base their lives or their political views on the words of Jesus. Disassociate the two in your mind. Forever.

Jesus does not deserve to be lumped in with that group of rabble. His words should be considered separately and carefully. I find that Jesus is the BEST defense against today's fundamentalist Christians. Quote him directly from the Bible and the room goes silent. His words are relevant today. And powerful. That is why it is important to me that we do not just dismiss him. If Christians truly followed the words of Jesus, we would not be in Iraq.

BTW, the more you study Jesus, the more you realize he was a Jew. This "Christianity" would have horrified him, I am sure.

[STUPID BOB]

Stilltrucking, abortion is not mentioned anywhere in the Bible. Child abandonment and infant exposure are not mentioned in the Bible either. Anywhere. I asked this question on Arcanum, where there are lots of fundies. They had to admit there is no specific Biblical injunction (except "thou shalt not kill") even remotely related to abortion. It is purely a political issue that the so-called "Christians" have taken up.

Uh, what about the little tyke Moses?

There is also a deep divide in the Xtian sects about the word "kill" as opposed to the word "murder" - there are two schools (I simplify) of translation at work here.

[abcrystcats]

The Moses story is as close as it gets. And that would seem to imply that child abandonment is a good idea in certain circumstances.

I am aware of the way this killing vs. murdering thing can be looked at. But I do not think Jesus would be splitting hairs, do you? Christians would do well to follow their own advice in these issues, and ask: "What Would Jesus Do?"

[STUPID BOB]

The Moses story is as close as it gets. And that would seem to imply that child abandonment is a good idea in certain circumstances.

I am aware of the way this killing vs. murdering thing can be looked at. But I do not think Jesus would be splitting hairs, do you? Christians would do well to follow their own advice in these issues, and ask: "What Would Jesus Do?"

Was it a good idea to ship him off? Is it ever, really? According to the story, that little ferry ride ultimately killed thousands.

The translation fight over those two words is NOT about what Jesus said. It is about what God said. Xtians killed on command from their God, even in JC's time. All killers kill on command from their own God. Mmmm - now that's very interesting . . . (puffs cig and falls off tryke)