Would You Want the Mosque In Your Backyard?

[Lightning Rod]

http://www.thepoetseye.wordpress.com
Jerusalem In New York City or The Mother, May I Mosque

Yes, you can, but don't. This is the majority consensus that I hear emerging from the ruckus over whether or not to 'allow' the construction of a mosque in the vicinity of Ground Zero. The President has reminded us, as his role requires, that one of our national principles is Freedom of Religion. Whether or not the builders of the mosque have a right to do it is not in question. What appears to be in question is whether or not they SHOULD do it.

It's a good thing that we have Freedom of Religion because America has more gods than Ancient Rome. The Poet's Eye has seen people worship everything from Buddhas to Bankbooks. We have cults that lift dead spirits and ones that raise rattlesnakes and roll in exaltation. Some worship Science and accept the pronouncement of its priests. I knew a sculptor one time who worshipped auto parts and made his alter from the grille of a 1959 Edsel. Praying before it was like staring into the empty eye of an obsolete god. Absolutum Obsoletum Mani Padme Ommm. In America there is open commerce in competing deities. Our idol makers are not idle. We churn out gods and demi-gods and all manner of minor saints at a prodigious rate. A young Roman girl might have worshipped and aspired to the qualities of Diana in the same way that our daughters pray with our pocketbooks to Hannah Montana. We can worship Sunday Morning TV Evangelists or Self-Help Con-Men or the Devil Himself if we want to, in America.

But just because most Americans are in favor of the ideal of Freedom of Religion doesn't mean that certain religions aren't held in higher common esteem than others while some are outright scorned, mocked and widely disapproved of. We have a whole subculture who believe that they are vampires. Nobody is particularly intent on denying them their delusion but they aren't taken too seriously either. Religious discrimination comes along with religion itself. And in 2010 I would not like to be a Muslim in America.

Yes, you can, but don't. The conflict intoned in this sentence reflects a basic conflict in our American psyche. 'Yes, you can, but don't,' says that all of our freedoms have limits. The Freedom of Speech doesn't mean that you can say anything that you want anytime and anyplace that you want. Most people of reason recognize that even though we are guaranteed the Freedom of Speech, there are responsibilities that go along with it such as at least a nominal adherence to the truth and if we cry fire in a crowded theater, there had better be a real fire, etc. We restrict the Freedom of Religion in that we don't allow human or animal sacrifices and other practices that violate civil or criminal law. Smoking pot is part of my religion but in Texas I can still be arrested for it. So, we understand that there are no absolute rights.

The question is not whether or not anyone is 'allowed' to build a mosque on private property observing local codes and ordinances. They are explicitly allowed to do this. The debate is over whether or not it is appropriate or in good taste to build it in that particular location. Not whether they Can but whether they Should. Thus it becomes a matter of taste and discretion rather than one of rights and laws. We should be glad that in America we place such matters in the hands of Miss Manners rather than the military. The community and the culture will settle this debate. If it were up to me, we would donate a space in the Ground Zero Memorial proper for a mosque or other Muslim remembrance. We shouldn't worry about an Islamic rec center two blocks away providing some community meeting rooms and putting up pool tables for the kids. I'm sure that there are crack houses in that radius. That it is a debate at all is only a function of the emotions involved and the symbolic values that various people have assigned to the same piece of real estate. It can't help but remind me of the seemingly eternal conflict over Jerusalem itself.

I'm an incurable idealist, I guess. I thought for a moment that we lived in a world that was at least slightly evolved beyond the Middle Ages when there were religious wars. Yes, it is pure idealism because the only place I've ever seen true religious tolerance was in books. Religious intolerance and oppression and persecution are far from unknown in our history. Any Scientologist or Wiccan or just a garden variety Mormon can tell you of religious intolerance in our land of Freedom of Religion. Our society has sterner ways than laws to express intolerance. This is why I worry for my Muslim friends.

It was already hot this morning when I took my walk to the tobacco shop. The shop is operated by a group of Pakistani immigrants. I go there because it is a good distance for my daily walk and because they sell cheap exotic cigarette brands. Today I paused in the air-conditioning and talked with the counter man. He had been in this country for a decade, he said, and his children were all in college. We talked about how hot it was here and how wet it was in Pakistan. Small talk. He was very open and jovial until I mentioned the subject of the Ground Zero mosque. Then a funny veil dropped over his eyes. I don't know him that well, we've never mentioned religion in our brief conversations but as soon as the subject came up I could tell he was talking to himself silently, 'should I treat this guy like a customer or a neighbor? Is he a member of the Nazis or the Christian Purity League or something? Is he going to come and put a brick through the window if I give him the wrong answer?' This is what he was thinking. He acted like a Jew furtively trying to hide his yellow star in pre-war Germany. Another customer walked in and I courteously dropped the subject but it told me that even in Dallas, Texas in a casual conversation with an unthreatening long-haired old hippie, this Muslim gentleman was feeling enough of a social strain to be guarded in his speech. He was well enough acclimated to American life to know that the Freedom of Speech can be superseded by the wisdom of keeping one's mouth shut.

As the Ground Zero Memorial and surrounding buildings take shape there will be many civic and religious and commercial spaces. There will be shrines to finance and trade and all the religions and sects of money will have their little nooks in the sanctuary mall of Ground Zero. You will be able to buy curios and quasi-religious artifacts and post-cards, bow down in art museums and take high-fat sacraments from Fast Food Inc. It will be a religious whorehouse anyway, why not have a mosque too? It couldn't offend me any more than many of the other things that have been done in the name of 911.

The President phrased it with his usual precision. It is certainly legal for the mosque to be built close to Ground Zero but that is a separate question from if it is Wise to build it there. I'm one of my generation's loudest proponents of Freedom of Speech. I've tested its limits in every amusing way that I could imagine. But I know better than to walk into a Harry Hines biker bar at midnight and start talking about people's mamas. It would do nothing to promote human understanding and would be an extreme example of ignoring local rules and customs. Violence would be predictable. The Poet's Eye hopes never to see sectarian strife erupt in the streets of New York City, but given the tension surrounding our distinctly anti-Muslim National attitude it wouldn't be a complete surprise if the recreation gets a little rough at the Recreation Center.


"I defend to the death your right to say it, but I wish you wouldn't say That."---Lrod

[Doreen Peri]

The President phrased it with his usual precision. It is certainly legal for the mosque to be built close to Ground Zero but that is a separate question from if it is Wise to build it there. I'm one of my generation's loudest proponents of Freedom of Speech. I've tested its limits in every amusing way that I could imagine. But I know better than to walk into a Harry Hines biker bar at midnight and start talking about people's mamas. It would do nothing to promote human understanding and would be an extreme example of ignoring local rules and customs. Violence would be predictable. The Poet's Eye hopes never to see sectarian strife erupt in the streets of New York City, but given the tension surrounding our distinctly anti-Muslim National attitude it wouldn't be a complete surprise if the recreation gets a little rough at the Recreation Center.

You're a smart guy. I agree... Not a wise thing to do to build it there... even though they legally can.

I sure hope there is no violence over this.

[mtmynd]

If the billionaire Republican mayor of NYC sees nothing wrong with building a Mosque 2 blocks from ground zero, on public property fairly purchased for that purpose, I personally would leave it at that - a New York deal that most American's certainly have a right to bitch and holler about but shouldn't deny the Freedom of Religion to any religion that abides by the laws of a city, state and country in which a religion is practiced.

To deny any religion that freedom is to twist the meaning of Constitutional freedom to fit the pulse of a minority simply to prevent what may happen rather than defend that Freedom from those who would deny it.

[mnaz]

true. cec. that's pretty much as I see it.

I'm personally not all that confortable with mosques anywhere. or rabid christian "evangelical" megachurches either, for that matter. but we're either going to have property rights and freedom of religion here, or we're not, and the former is preferable to the latter, it would seem.

[Doreen Peri]

The problem is the attitude of some ignorant, bigoted American people. Many ignorant people think the entire religious faith of Islam attacked the US on 911.

Of course we know that's not the case but there are MANY stupid people in this country.

Freedom to worship however people want to worship is a basic right in the US constitution. Islam is a beautiful loving and spiritual faith. They have the right to build a mosque wherever they want to.

I just think that because of all the hoopla over it with so many ignorant people being so clearly bigoted, they'd be wiser to chose another location.

Eventually, I believe the human race will evolve to the point where people accept other people for who they are, without prejudice, without misjudgment. However, I don't think it's happening any time soon.

Just saying.... they shouldn't be told NOT to build it there... legally, they should be able to build their mosque wherever they want if they can get the permits, have the funding, whatever they need.

But, I agree with Obama. It's a matter of what's the wise thing to do and with the bigotry by ignorant people in this country, I don't think those who are planning on building the mosque have chosen the right location. It's like asking for violence so I don't think it's a very smart idea.

"Yes, you can, but don't" .... Well, true enough that our freedoms do have limitations however they should NOT be told NOT to build it there. If they want to build it there, that's their right... as it should be. I just think it would be a stupid decision because it may incite violence from the ignorant bigoted people in this country.

Just my 2¢.

[Doreen Peri]

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." - George Carlin

[Arcadia]

well..., I have no backyard, only windows!...now, talking seriously, I guess that to plant some trees and put some benches could have been a better idea...

[mtmynd]

Dor' : "I don't think those who are planning on building the mosque have chosen the right location. It's like asking for violence so I don't think it's a very smart idea."

I heard today that 3 out of 5 New Yorkers are not offended by the building of this mosque in question... which is 60% of the folks living there. But yet the rest of our country apparently believes otherwise and are making a big deal out of it. Would these people who protest be silenced if the mosque were to move, say 3 blocks away... maybe 4 or 5 blocks away. How far should the mosque be moved away and still be in Manhattan before these few loud voices are silenced? And should we ALL be threatened by what these foolish folks think, say or do? Is that showing any strength and conviction towards what our country has given us, i.e. freedom of religion?

You speak violence, my friend? In this country violence is a way of life. We are the most heavily armed citizens in the world. We are the most drugged citizens in the world. We probably rank quite high in the alcohol abuse category. Put these things together and we have violence coming out of our American pores turning to blood regardless of nationality, religious beliefs, race or any other differences we may have. If violence erupts over the location of a mosque, so be it. There are enough who support our constitutional rights, IMHO.

[mnaz]

another thing: having a mosque "in your back yard" isn't necessarily the burning issue here. I actually had one "in my back yard" for years near the home I grew up in. And there are many neighborhood mosques around the U.S., as I understand it. No, the issue here is the sensitive location of this particular proposed mosque. I realize the thread title is probably a play on the old "not in my back yard" expression, but still.

[Doreen Peri]

What a shame that the US is such a violent nation. What a crying shame that so many people are armed. It brings tears to my eyes.

I believe in non-violence. I am a pacifist.

At any rate, below is what I posted about the topic at Arcanum. I hoping this more clearly states my stance. I really feel this way straight from the depths of my heart and there's nothing anybody can say to persuade me to think otherwise.

I think my post on AC says it better .... here's what I posted:

• Freedom to worship and freedom to believe whatever we want to believe is one of the basic rights of the US Constitution.
  
  The Islam faith is a beautiful religion! Those who want to build a mosque wherever they want to built it as long as they have the proper permits, etc., should be able to build it wherever they want.
  
  But many Americans, unfortunately, are ignorant regarding the faith of Islam and also have judged the religion as evil, completely in error and based solely on the radical criminal behavior of just a few men on 911. It is a real shame that some people think so negatively about an entire religious faith. It's very sad.
  
  That said, out of sensitivity for the lost lives and because there are people who are so opposed to it, I don't think it's a wise decision for those who want to build the mosque to choose that particular site.
  
  I fear building it there could further aggravate emotions and that violence could erupt.
  
  They should NOT be told, legally, that they are not allowed to build their mosque there. However, in my opinion it would not be a wise decision at this time to build the mosque at that particular location..... because of the potential repercussions by those who are.... how shall I say it?..... judgmental and ignorant.

[mtmynd]

Dor: "I don't think it's a wise decision for those who want to build the mosque to choose that particular site."

Sorry, Doreen, but that sentence again,begs the question, "how far should the mosque be built from ground zero before fear is diminished and the argument is abated?"

I know my own opinion on this will not change the mood of the country on this overly sensitive subject, but I do know if the other religions in this country do not stand up and defend the building of a mosque anywhere in Manhattan for fear of offending someone in the country, then the doors to Freedom of Religion are marked. Whose next to be prohibited from building their place of worship in NYC or any other place in the country out of fear of their opponents? Will Jewish synagogues be prohibited in Birmingham, Alabama, because the fundamentalist Christians fear Jews?

[Doreen Peri]

No need to be sorry about anything, Cecil. Why are you sorry?

I don't have an answer to your question.

I also don't want to debate, Cecil. I just feel that it's not a wise decision to build it there at this particular time.

Again, they can build it wherever they want... all religions have the right to worship wherever they want in the US. It's IMPORTANT! It's a huge part of our constitutional rights, freedom of religion.

The Islam faith is a beautiful religion.

How far away? I don't know. Because there is such turmoil over the issue.... it would seem to me that those who selected the site would reconsider that particular location by using their human wisdom, knowing that some ignorant people may react violently.

I agree with what President Obama said.

I really don't have anything else to say about it. This is my feeling as a PERSON.. a human being... If I knew someone from my neighborhood had committed a murder and as a result people didn't like ME... they were angry at ME even though it wasn't ME who was the murderer, I wouldn't go into their neighborhood and put myself in danger because I knew they unjustly hated me. I didn't do it but I'm smart enough to know that if they're connecting me to it, I'm staying away from them because they are blaming me unjustly. It's just smart and wise not to get up in someone's face when they're pissed off at you even if they're WAY WRONG to BE pissed off at you.

And that's it for me. Can't do debate because my energy is still not back. Still recovering. I shouldn't be on the net so much right now. What a dummy I am. Need no stress and I get so emotionally involved with issues like this I'm a real idiot. Sighhh...

Thanks for listening to my opinion and I respect yours. Just can't do any debating. Love ya!

[mnaz]

ban religion!

[Doreen Peri]

ban religion!

Hah! Now there's an idea! That would solve a lot of problems and might even create world peace.
.
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[mtmynd]

we would be far better off banning fear and stupidity.