Community

[WIREMAN]

....in all seriouseness in order to be a community of creative minds, there has to be a common ground. In the peresozo fiasco there was really little intelligent give and take about what amounted to a huge problem. To tell you the truth it dug into more than my creative being like an invisible cyber thorn, it ate at others as well.
.....What we need in order to survive these troubled waters are bridges between us that allow communication as a dynamic and creative energy, I honestly feel there were no bridges in this case and I for one felt cut off. Lightning yes perhaps your beliefs are sound, we all do need a lil shit in our lives, hell my life's full of it all I gotta do is look out my front door here in the hood, and add in the construction world, yeah I get my share. What I'm saying is that we are all living at different levels and with hounds barking at our heels from the past and present. I really feel that when a situation arises in this community that is bothering, and I will not say hurting cause tis is all just words in space, in the phsical sense. I really feel the next time a bad situation arises and "BOTHERS" members of this awesome community, I think we should all band together intelligently, right in the instant that it happens, and discuss the problem, that's plain and simple how this wired man feels, it's all to important not to have a dialogue, an intelligent and compassionate dialogue.

[judih]

community.
yes, yet look what happens. Someone says something and one finds it outrageous and reacts in kind.
Someone else finds it humourous and reacts in kind.
Someone else finds it worthy of no response and says nothing.

Some complain in private
some try to work it out in private

community is made of many and we all have our ways of dealing.

When the community as a whole objects to something, that's the time things unavoidably come to a head.
In this case, things peaked when SooZen spoke her mind.

There's always a situation - and i think every one will be dealt with in it's own way. The thing is why suffer?

The offender needs to know that causing suffering is anti-social behaviour. Perhaps it's only a single offense, not the entire being who caused it.

But if a single offense clones into many, then the community as a whole feels the pain.

What to do? Talk to the offender. If the host/ess doesn't want the job, then someone else could be delegated to do it.

But the line of 'acceptable' group dynamics needs to be felt.
You and i felt differently - we each had our own tolerance level.
That's cool.

But yes, we need to speak aloud and respectfully. Self-governing community is no easy feat. It takes a lot of self-awareness and love for the society as a whole.

judih

[sooZen]

Do we hear an Amen? Hah!

You guys rock!

Love and hopefully some sweet Peace in this world,
SooZen

[Lightning Rod]

I know it's no secret that it pained me greatly to ban perezpso
I didn't want to ban him because I think any society needs it's deviants, it's antagonists.
Sure, they are troublesome and insulting and abrasive at times, but we need them.
Why? Because they are the ones that make us examine our values and beliefs.

The idea of community is one that is very important to me. I try to promote a sense of community everywhere I go. There are many levels of community--families, tribes, companies, cities, states, nations, parties, religions, humanity.

But this is a web community. It is something new. We are inventing it. Some of us have met one another face to face and others have not but feel a kinship through our words. We are here because we want to be.

This is why I try to keep the door open to all. It's because you can't have a dialogue without everyone being able to speak, even if what they say is unpleasant to your ear. It upsets me when I have to banish someone because when you banish the bad, you also have to banish the good that is within them.

There is something that appeals to me about letting the community decide who should stay or go, but there is also something that worries me about that idea. Although I have democratic prejudices, I don't think democracy is always the smartest way to run things. You can pool ignorance as easily as you can pool wisdom. Just look at what the majority chose in the last presidential election.

Let's talk about it, Mark.

And judih, I vote for you to be our monarch. Better one person with wisdom and compassion than the mob.

[sooZen]

Lrod, I agree with a good deal of what you say but you also cannot stand by while someone is beating someone who doesn't like whips. Now if they are enjoying it, that's a whole 'nother matter. There have to be some controls or the community disolves and becomes something akin to chaos.

I have no problem with the "rebel" or "outlaw" mentality...I am on the fringes of society myself and I rail against what I perceive as wrong with the world frequently....BUT...I don't think you should kick someone that is down and that should not be tolerated. Let the rebels say what they want, I am all for that but I will speak up, and not be silent anymore when I see any creature on this planet being abused.

And I vote for judih too...she is perfect for the job but would anyone want such a job? Being the sheriff puts one right in the line of fire.

Opps...I need to get to work or someone around here is gonna...well, he needs me to help out clean Bernie's stuff out. I will certainly check back later to see how this is gonna all play out. I love a good story...I hope it has a happy ending and if not, I hope a new chapter.

Peace,
SooZ

[Doreen Peri]

Mark

Do you have any idea how much time this has taken? Do you have any clue how many emails were exchanged? How many pms were exchanged? How many threads were posted? How many discussions took place both on the boards and privately member-to-member, members emailing me, members pm'ing LR and me?

HOURS.... many many many hours have been spent on community communication about how to handle the posts of someone who added negativity, but at the same time, ALSO added some *excellent*, YES, EXCELLENT essays, social commentary, artistic discussions and ideas about life.

I think we already did EXACTLY what you're asking for.

I feel like I've lost several months from my life over this issue.

We tried to please everyone. That's just not possible.

Judih's statement above is quite accurate. People handle things differently. Some will laugh at insults, some will ignore them, some will enjoy the banter about them.

As for me? I'm exhausted from it and though I'm very glad LR finally put his foot down because, as I have told you, we are a management team and his opinion differed than mine and therefore, I could not act alone...... although I am glad that this situation has been resolved for now ........ I really must tell you that I will miss some of the content that mr. perezoso added to this site, as I know some others will.

We worked long and hard to try to keep everyone happy.

In the future, if another difficult situation arises in this community, I hope we will continue to do exactly what we did in this situation. Talk about it, just as we did. Openly in public. And to each other privately. Because, as you said, community is worth that much.

We did well.

I'm just sorry there is absolutely no way to keep every human being happy on this site. I'm sorry you were uncomfortable and I'm sorry others were uncomfortable and I'm sorry I keep apologizing because I did the best I could do.

Thank you for being here and for your input.

-----------

Judih.... your idea about appointing people to help out by talking to someone who's posts are being questioned or bothering people is a good idea.

If I were to select anyone to help this community out in this way, you would be one person I would select. Why? Because you have a soft, kind, open, understanding, and diplomatic voice. You are rational and do not tend to get emotional about topics or situations.

If you'd like to help in this manner, please email me and we can talk about how we can set something like this up.

Thank you!

[mousey1]

Community. Nice word.

What's the aim here at studioeight, community or Utopia?

Community can mean diversity or it can mean like-mindedness. Community of literary folk? I say you better expect some hot bloodedness. To expect nicey nicey is walking with your head in the clouds.

Writer's are strong-minded, with strong opinions. Passionate I would say, and with tempers, yes. That's why a flameboard is necessary. For people to enter a flameboard and ask members to be nice there is absurd. They've got something to say, there not there to be nice. Peace is nice sure, but hello, let's be realistic.

I'll quote Roger Rosenblatt here, because I'm inclined to agree with him on this, and although it is a generalization it makes a point:

Writers are: "a bad lot on the whole - petty, nasty, bilious, suffused with envy and riddled with fear." And I will add not boring, not boring at all, in fact, bloody interesting.

I suspect if you had the likes of Kerouac, Bukowski, Ginsberg, Hemingway, both Dylans, Twain, Frost, whoever else pops to mind, frequenting this board -- the fur would fly on a regular basis. Which of us would not sit there and gleefully rub our hands together. And I guarantee it wouldn't all be literary gems -- if your nemesis get's down and dirty there's a good chance you will too.

Bottom line is the site owner wants this to be a happy, serene place, it is her right. She is no doubt a very open-minded person, very liberal (if I may use that term) in her ways. I wouldn't criticize her for a second. She felt she needed to protect others from barbs, in fact people whined, and yes I said whined, at her..... shame on them.

We all have individual voice. We are who we are. Someone was asked to conform, to change their voice and style, their very being. Other's are allowed to carry on, do their dirt behind the scenes. I don't like the smell of all this.....don't like it at all.

There is, of course, behavior that can absolutely not be condoned, but from my bird's eye I saw none of that here. I saw a fellow member contributing, adding much to the flavour and texture of this place, insults aside, and I for one will miss that. Oh I'm sure he'll be back, but still, in my probably not worth a nickle opinion, it's censureship as well as censorship.

You all make good points. Lrod I tend to agree with you on this.

Doreen, caught in the middle, when in my opinion she needn't be.
A sweeter lady there never was.

[Lightning Rod]

you nailed it, mousey

[WIREMAN]

no mousey missed it LRod......utopia is not what this man is talking about, I'm talking simply about being real, cuttin' out the cowardly hiding behind a persona and being real, what that has to do with a utopian vision, well someone's starting to go astray and not reading the writing, it's not confusing, just be real.
Doreen, don't for a second think I don't know what's going on, I practically lived here for 5 months, what I am sincerely saying is we should discuss these things when they arise and deal with them as adults, we wewre all init and it affected all of our creative psychies.
Mousey you need to read the simple words I was stating and not write your own take on it, I'm a man who has worked as an ironworker all his life and lives in the hood in one of the worst neighborhoods in the world, definitly not looking for utopia, be careful when you write your own scenario to what someone says in sincerity, your probably gonna be wrong.

[Doreen Peri]

For the record, we don't want to ever ban anyone.

I agree, mousey1, with your assessment about passionate artists and writers! So true! And there's nothing more enlightening than a heated debate!

Are we looking for Utopia here? No way! This site is about LIFE and the exploration of ideas between open-minded individuals, who are, YES, passionate artists and writers.

Quelling people's voices is *not* a good idea and I don't believe in doing that one bit! But you are also right when you say that there is "behavior that can absolutely not be condoned" and if you missed it, you missed it, but many witnessed it. It wasn't a matter of *protecting* community members. It was a matter of being intolerant to abuse and not wanting to host or broadcast verbal abuse. I don't tolerate abuse in my personal life and I do not want to tolerate it on this website.

LR and I are a team. Our opinions differ in many ways. But I think the balance of our teamwork is a good one.

We are not about to have a website with rules, regulations, a police force, and censorship of ideas. Never!

I, too, will miss the ideas, essays, philosophy and debate posted by Mr. P.

Just to let you all know, he has been invited back to register under a new name if he can refrain from verbal abuse, which will not be tolerated.

This has taken way too much of my time. I'm going to write some poetry now or go play the piano.

Thank you, mousey1, for posting your open-minded opinions and for being here. We treasure your input. And thanks much for your kind words about me and your accurate assessment about how difficult the situation was for me.

[WIREMAN]

if you invite him back, well now that's about the goofiest thing I've heard in a long time, ya just got rid of whoever it was last night. This is starting to get ridiculous, i'm outta here..............

[Doreen Peri]

Doreen, don't for a second think I don't know what's going on, I practically lived here for 5 months, what I am sincerely saying is we should discuss these things when they arise and deal with them as adults, we wewre all init and it affected all of our creative psychies.

We did discuss these things as adults, Mark. For months. Both publically and privately.

Mousey you need to read the simple words I was stating and not write your own take on it,

Now, hold on here one minute, Mark!

mousey1's take on anything and everything is VERY welcome here! You cannot tell a person not to reply to your post with his or her opinion! Why are you saying that? We WANT her opinion!

If you didn't want other people's opinions, why are you posting a thread to ask for the community to talk about it? That's exactly what you asked for! And thank you for asking for people's opinions.

And thank YOU, mousey1, for offering yours! Your opinions are gratefully appreciated!

I'm a man who has worked as an ironworker all his life and lives in the hood in one of the worst neighborhoods in the world, definitly not looking for utopia, be careful when you write your own scenario to what someone says in sincerity, your probably gonna be wrong.

It is understandable, Mark, that you don't want to experience any unnecessary conflict in your life. I understand your life isn't easy and the neighborhood you live in is rough. But the internet is about LIFE and you cannot totally avoid everything you want to avoid in life, no matter where you go. ..... unless you become "the boy in the bubble" and hide from life.

And I'd like to address your first statement...

I'm talking simply about being real, cuttin' out the cowardly hiding behind a persona and being real

I don't think I've ever in my life met anyone who was more "real" than Mr. P. He is a wide-open individual who speaks his mind, no matter how harshly, doesn't hide behind anything at all, to the point of being honestly anti-social sometimes, telling people what he thinks of them, etc. This is the internet. All of our identities are known only through text. To call it cowardly and claim someone is hiding behind anonymity would be to call ALL of us cowards. Because we are all anonymous here.

[WIREMAN]

Good Bye Doreen.............

[Doreen Peri]

if you invite him back, well now that's about the goofiest thing I've heard in a long time, ya just got rid of whoever it was last night. This is starting to get ridiculous, i'm outta here..............

Mark, Everyone is welcome here as long as they don't verbally abuse each other. His IP# remains banned so he can't sign on with any other name unless he agrees to discontinue the insults.

[Doreen Peri]

Good Bye Doreen.............

Good Bye Mark.

Peace and Love to you.