Comparing Middle East situation to Native American situation

[Atehequa]

hi. i find myself shaken after the war. It's quiet here now, but i'm not quite back to base line.

Just a comment. Right now there is no place called Palestine. So the title is midleading.
Hopefully that will change one day. But when it says that 'judih' started the thread - then the title isn't something appropriate.

How about "Can we compare mid-east situation to Native American situation?"

When the oppressors of another people are doing studies on how many calories it takes to keep those subjugated barley alive it is no different than what the white Americans did to Indians confined on reservations. Slighted food rations of wormy flour and rancid beef as to keep reservation people much too weak so as not to even think about struggling against oppressors.

No place called Palestine ? In my possession there are old maps that say otherwise.

How can we compare the Middle East situation to the plight of American Indians?

Instead of land on which to settle now America continues manifest destiny to control oil rich nations. If the reason for going to war against Iraq was to dispose a brutal dictator, then why didn't America do something about the genocide in Darfur going on around the same time ? In reality Saddam Hussein nationalized petroleum production in Iraq which pissed off Shell-Exxon-Mobile, the big oil giants part of the ruling elite who really call the shots here in America.

[Doreen Peri]

Atehequa -

If you'd like to suggest another title for the thread which everyone can agree upon, that would be fine! I take it you don't think the new title is appropriate. Am I correct?

On my old maps, there's a place called Palestine, too. And there SHOULD be a place called Palestine now. Where is it? And why don't the Palestinians have a home?

There ARE "Palestinians". They are spoken of every day in the news. Yes, this is about the oppressed and those who have lost their homes.

We can't just say they don't exist. They obviously do!

You're certainly not on my shit list. I have no qualms at all with this topic. I think it's a terrific topic and a very important one! If anybody else has a problem with it, then that's their problem.

I hope the conversation continues.

...........

Judih,

Perhaps another title will work better so everyone involved in the conversation agrees on a title.

..........

Please post your new title suggestions here. I'm trying my best to be as diplomatic as possible so that we can carry on this important and interesting topic with a title that works well for this thread which was split from the other thread.

[panta rhei]

how about "human conflicts over home and soul - in general and in particular" as title?

this would cover up almost every direction this thread may take us...

......

as for the middle east conflict: i keep hearing people saying that this was a fight about god. but it isn't - this conflict is not about god. it is about identity and territory. for some of those involved, religion is a part of their identity - for others, it isn't.

for most of those involved, it has become simply a matter of survival and of being self-determined and safe.

the conflict about identity and territory, the struggle to be safe and authentic and in control about one's own life: all this is nurtured by emotions and human qualities and flaws on both sides (frustration, pride, arrogance, fear, hope, bias, stubbornness, sensitivities, vision, self-righteousness, aspirations,...) and by the needs of those involved (home; identity; safety and security; self-determination; perspectives)....

it's actually as simple as the human race....

[Steve Plonk]

I hate to wade into the quagmire discussion about comparing the Amerindian situation with the Palestinian Israeli situation. There is no direct analogy...
I think it is like comparing apples to oranges.

[panta rhei]

exactly, steve - they may be both fruits, but are quite different in origin, substance and handling...

[Doreen Peri]

I hate to wade into the quagmire discussion about comparing the Amerindian situation with the Palestinian Israeli situation. There is no direct analogy...
I think it is like comparing apples to oranges.

I totally disagree.

The Native Americans used to have a homeland. Some people came along and took over their land, kicking them off their land. Now the people who took over their land own the land that used to be their home.

The Palestinians used to have a homeland. Some people came along and took over their land, kicking them off their land. Now the people who took over their land own the land that used to be their home.

Apples to apples. Very similar.

In the case of the Native Americans, they were "given" reservations to live on which are supposed to be "nations" unto themselves but they're not. They're governed by the US government and they are living in poverty. It's pitiful and ugly what was done to the Native Americans.

In the case of the Palestinians, they currently have nowhere to go. They have no place to call home.

[panta rhei]

The Palestinians used to have a homeland. Some people came along and took over their land, kicking them off their land. Now the people who took over their land own the land that used to be their home.

no, doreen. it's two siblings who both claim the house of their parents their place to be. it wasn't "some people coming along". it was some people returning.

think of two brothers, one stayed in his parents' house (for some reasons), the other one went away (for some reasons), then returned (for some reasons). if they both want to live in this house together again, then there are a lot of things they need to work out, for they both have their own ideas about it, their own pride, memories, fears, aspirations, stubbornesses, needs. it ain't easy, and they are still struggling... terribly struggling.

i wish them peace. and a way to find to live together.

maybe they're too involved, too entangled, too affected to ever make it.

but maybe their children will. which is their chance and their challenge!

[Doreen Peri]

The Palestinians used to have a homeland. Some people came along and took over their land, kicking them off their land. Now the people who took over their land own the land that used to be their home.

no, doreen. it's two siblings who both claim the house of their parents their place to be. it wasn't "some people coming along". it was some people returning.

think of two brothers, one stayed in his parents' house (for some reasons), the other one went away (for some reasons), then returned (for some reasons). if they both want to live in this house together again, then there are a lot of things they need to work out, for they both have their own ideas about it, their own pride, memories, fears, aspirations, stubbornesses, needs. it ain't easy, and they are still struggling... terribly struggling.

i wish them peace. and a way to find to live together.

maybe they're too involved, too entangled, too affected to ever make it.

but maybe their children will. which is their chance and their challenge!

OK, well if they're siblings and they ADMIT that the Palestinians are their brothers and sisters and that the land is also their home, then why don't they share? I mean, come on?

We learn how to share when we're in kindergarten.

One brother doesn't just kick out another brother from their home and say, "This home now belongs to me and if you try to come back into it, I'm going to kill you."

That's adolescent and cruel.

Yes, they need to work it out. How long can this go on? Until the whole world gets involved and everybody blows each other up by taking sides? It's stupid!

That's what the Christians believe. They believe that all of this was predicted in the Bible and it's the beginning of the "end times" when the Jews reclaimed their homeland. Or something like that. They think it will lead to the Apocolypse (sorry can't spell that) and yanno what? They may be right because if they believe it, they may just carry it through.

For some reason which I've never been able to understand, no matter what Israel does, the US sides with them. Why? Why does the US think Israel can do no wrong?

What's wrong with this picture?

A LOT is wrong with it. The US is one of the most powerful nations in the world. This fighting has been going on for decades. It could all escalate into a huge world war!

At any rate, my phrasing perhaps was not exactly "correct" but it's TRUE that some people (the brothers, the Israeli brothers) have taken over the land of their brothers (the Palestinians) and it's TRUE that there used to be a place that was called PALESTINE.

Where is it? And why does it now belong to Israel?

It's wrong. The whole thing is wrong. People need to learn to live with each other in PEACE and nobody has the right to kick anybody off of their land, even if it is "SHARED HOMELAND".

It's just all wrong, that's all.

[panta rhei]

sometimes, there is no consensus about how the sharing could work and then things may get difficult and out of hand. sometimes, one says "ok, let's share this way", and the other one says " no way - i'll only share that way", and, yes, that's an experience we make in kindergarten already.

what you are saying is that israel doesn't want to share. this is not true. both sides cannot find a consensus about how to share, that's what's happening. and then of course there are persons on both sides that do not want to share at all, yes, this is true as well, and this is where the sibling analogy begins to fail, because it is not about two individuals here, but about a heterogeneous and varied bunch of people. so even if both sides agreed about a way to share, it would just need one single individual to throw a bomb, a grenade, a wrong word... and all the consensus would be doomed again by the uproar of human emotions.

as for your other questions, check out the history. there's lots of info about it. it is not a linear story - it is quite complex and entangled.

and if you want a good guys/bad guys scheme, here it is: those who honestly try to find a solution that could be acceptable for both sides. and those who don't.

[Doreen Peri]

I have no idea why they aren't sharing. All my life, I've heard the history and news reports and haven't been able to keep up and follow it. It all sounds crazy to me. I don't know who's to blame.

You know me better than to be the type of person to blame a whole group of people I don't even know! That would be stupid.

All I know is this:

The Palestinians have no home. The deserve to have a home. They HAD homes on land they occupied which they thought was their homeland and it was even called Palestine... they're true home... and now they don't have those homes any more. Why isn't it called Palestine any more?

People getting killed over this is stupid. The fact that it's been going on for decades is stupid.

The Israelis also deserve to have a home. If this is also their homeland, then they all need to share the land together.

Why can't they all come to an agreement?

I've given up portions of my home (rooms in my house and even the couch for months) to those who need a place to stay and let them call my home their home for periods of time.

I share my home with others. I even feed them a lot of the times.

They help me, too. They either pay rent when they can or help do work around the house that needs to be done.

We share in the work and the costs of living here.

If I can do it, they can do it.

[panta rhei]

sometimes, temporarily sleeping on another's couch is not enough.

sometimes, you feel you should have your own house instead.

[Doreen Peri]

sometimes, temporarily sleeping on another's couch is not enough.

sometimes, you feel you should have your own house instead.

Yes, of course! I understand. That's what I was saying from the beginning. The Palestinians need their own land, their own home. The Israelis also need their own land and their own home.

The problem comes from the fact that there USED to be a place called Palestine and now there's not. Why? It was taken away from them.

The Israeli's claim it's THEIR land and that's why they say they took it, right?

Well, people need to share. We're back to square one. If they can't resolve whose land it actually belongs to, then the least they can do is look at an older map. On the older map, it clearly says "Palestine." According to ancient writings, Palestine has been around for a very long time!

So, both groups need to resolve this by learning to live together, each with their OWN home.

I only used the analogy of sharing my home because it was an easy analogy about sharing a home and working together to make compromises so that everybody has a place to stay. I make compromises. Doesn't everyone? And trade agreements.

Anyway.... we've come full circle.

The Palestinians deserve to have their OWN land which they had for a long time. And the Israelis deserve to have their OWN land.

They need to figure it out or someone needs to help them figure it out before they blow each other up to smithereens and the whole world goes to war over the stupid thing.

Believe me.. I have respect for ALL people. I know several people who live in Israel (one being Judih who I love like a sister!) and I know other people (not in person but online) who are displaced Palestineans. I care about them, too.

I just can't understand anybody saying that the Israelis deserve ALL the land when Palestine has disappeared off the face of the globe.

[Arcadia]

hola panta, it´s good to read you!. You are peace impersonificated so I appreciate a lot your words ...

maybe they're too involved, too entangled, too affected to ever make it.

but maybe their children will. which is their chance and their challenge!

accurate thought, sad that when the deaths & injuries continue the new generations are already part of the recurrent patron, and most of the time they are the most affected, by the way ... but who knows?
And I agree that it´s a complex situation but now Israel (inside and outside Israel) is now in the more powerful (somehow -for intrincated, paradoxical and long historic? causes- ) side, that I guess implies a plus of responsability, generosity and grandeza. Oh, well ... maybe it sounds too exigente! It´s quite probable (even tough the eternal education metaphor doesn´t suits me well at all) each region, pueblo, country or whatever have to de-learn and learn different things for differents reasons ... that makes all of as equal ...

human conflicts over home and soul - in general and in particular" as title? well, it´s a more poetic title!

doreen: all the questions you made I made them somehow also myself, love your way to be direct, gracias for writing them!

Atehequa: do you smoke?

judih: we are not perfect but we are enough real, hugs & peace to you, amiga!

[tarbaby]

One common thread between the plight of the Palestinians and the Native Americans is colonialism.

In fact all over the middle east trouble spots are former European colonies, Iraq, Syria, ect.

That guy from Iran was right so much of it is a European problem
Who gives a shit about Balfour anyway.
that's just history
bunk

Arcadia wrote:

Atehequa: do you smoke?

just my opinion
I think he smokes but he never inhales

Atehequa
lets not play the victim card lets not get into a p*ssing contest.
I am here in this stolen land because my family was considered vermin in Europe, I am the refuse of that teeming shore, I am first generation american born here, the land was stolen before I got here. All I can do now is be aware of those hidden history/truths you spoke of
infriendship
jt

For what it is worth I think you are wrong Panta, perhaps in a more rational country like yours it has nothing to do with God. But it has everything to do with God here in the United Snakes™. We are joined at the hip to Israel because of the power of the evangelical lobby. Israel is the birth place of the Lord and Savior, it is the Holy land. IF we want that mighty God of the Hebrews on our side we must support Israel.

And what is amazing to me the most vociferous supporters of Israel in the united states are antisemitic. But I can't blame Israel for pandering to them, it is a matter of survival. I fear for the Israel's future, maybe I am an athiest at heart and I don't believe in that mighty smitey G d of my mothers and fathers before me, I know Israel is well armed, but they all seem like doomsday weapons to me.
Masada Masada Masada
shall not fall again



And for all American Jews who feel the call to emigrate to Israel
I would sing them a couple of verses of
"I never promised you a rose garden"

judih I guess if there is no such place as Palestine then it most be Utopia.
If we are going to start comparing apples to oranges how come Liberia is not an issue anymore. I mean all those people who emigrated there, nobody questions it anymore. I would still drive through hell on sunday just to see you another day in nir oz


but what can I do except do what ever comes to me to do the best I can, I worry that Israel is counting on the U.S.A. too much
we are not a reliable government to make treaties we have turned our backs on so many people.

Interestingly enough, these six men also share a belief that a Palestinian state should have been a priority, linked to a kind of disdain for Israeli politicians for not doing more to make it happen.

some bad ass old men in this video
nobody I would want to fuck with
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/mo ... 2404.story

[Atehequa]

Atehequa
lets not play the victim card lets not get into a p*ssing contest.
I am here in this stolen land because my family was considered vermin in Europe, I am the refuse of that teeming shore, I am first generation american born here, the land was stolen before I got here. All I can do now is be aware of those hidden history/truths you spoke of
infriendship

Lots of people arrived here and settled upon already conquered land. They built their lives and for the most part prospered. Meanwhile American Indians were/are still being victimized. Oddly enough when Indians speak out there seems to always be someone at hand to claim they are playing either the victim or race card. I guess we are suppose to accept our lot in stoic silence or else happily assimilate into the American melting pot.

Do you know up until the 1970s many American Indian women underwent forced sterilization ? What about all the reservation people who are wronged by Indian leaders(Uncle Tomahawks) who were put into power by the federal government? What about the Navajo who are being forced off their land mostly by the hand of Arizona senator John McCain ? The atrocities did not stop in the 19th century with the end of the Indian Wars.

If Indians speak out against such atrocities there are those who claim we are initiating a pissing contest. Would it be better if we put on shows wearing colorful full regalia and tap dance for white Americans in our moccasins ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTrbVf6SrCc