Comparing Middle East situation to Native American situation

[Atehequa]

Atehequa: do you smoke?:)

Why, do you want to sit together in a good way and pass the pipe ?

[Atehequa]

exactly, steve - they may be both fruits, but are quite different in origin, substance and handling...

Yeah let's compare human beings to apples, oranges and bananas. That always seems to make everything more comprehensible.

[stilltrucking]

Achilles In Vietnam

I grieve for the Palestinians, no less than for what my country has done to the first peoples here. No less for the slaughter in the Congo, or Rwanda, or Srebrenica. So many victims, too many victims.



Tell me something I don't know.
Posted on Studio Eight on August 2nd, 2005

... Hitler got a lot of his racial theories from the state of Virginia with its eugenics laws.
by stilltrucking
August 2nd, 2005, 5:16 pm

[Arcadia]

Why, do you want to sit together in a good way and pass the pipe ? yes! where´s the pipe? (I only have at hand two mates and some cuban habanos but maybe they can help...! ).

gracias for the link to Achilles in Vietnam, s-t

[panta rhei]

too much to comment on everything in this thread (even though i would like to; but to get into all this in depth would be a fulltime job)... here are some things i would like to mention, though:

@doreen:

palestine is a geographic name for a region that has historically been known (in whole or parts) by many other names such as canaan, judaea, kingdom of judha/of israel, syria, zion.
during the british mandate of palestine, palestinians used to be all people residing there, no matter which religion or ethnicity they had. today, the term it is used for those who are culturally and linguistically arab (not necessarily muslim) and who live in the gaza strip and the west bank (now called palestinian territories).
the region has been controlled by many different people throughout the milennia - have a look here; you can see the period and the name of the region and its rulers during that period:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_perio ... _Palestine



so much about the term palestine and palestininas. more to read here and in many other places, if you really want to understand some of this background:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

no matter the names or definitions, though, there are a lot of people who suffer there, a lot of people who cannot live normal and dignified and peaceful lives. so, yes, solutions need to be found, and , yes again, the solutions have to be about sharing and ways to co-exist and accept each other's right to exist.
sounds good! the difficulites, however, lie within the details of the agreements and mutual consents... and within all the human flaws and emotions involved...

which brings me to
@arcadia:

i absolutely agree with you about the responsibilities any stronger partner in any argument or fight does have. and the strong ones in this conflict surely are neither the palestina people nor the israeli population who both just want to live safe and dignified lives.
so - here's a shout out to the israeli government and to the arab states: you are responsible for those who live there. you are responsible for a lot of human lives. so show your strength and power by being generous, noble and humane, rather than by resentment, denial and aggression!

and
@jack:

i still think the conflict is about identity and control, and not about god. the notion of god is just used - either as a part of one's identity, or to create fear and therefore control.

and, finally,
@athehequa:

can't say much about the american natives as i do not know much about the details. as for the oranges and apples, though - these were not meant to stand for humans, but for the nature of the different conflicts.... simplified pictures to illustrate abstract ideas of complex stories....

[stilltrucking]

Panta you are probably right, I trust your insight but here in the USA many people think otherwise, they think it has to do with religion. The modern state of Israel was intended to be a secular state, a national home for the Jews. But I fear it is morphing into a theocracy. Israel got a right wing that makes ours here seem like boy scouts.
G d is on our side, this is Biblical Land?
I think a lot of Rabin, blessed be his memory.
I think about some of the clowns that have succeeded him and I want to cry.


I don't know why athehequa brought Israel into a thread about Wall Street, but I think he has a point even if I could not connect the dots.

RE: Occupy Wall Street
by Atehequa » October 9th, 2011, 9:59 am

This is exactly why the United States needs to stop sending so much financial support to violent nations that the rest of the world wouldn't touch with a 10' pole. Especially the ones America feels obligated to support for nothing but religious reasons.

Especially the ones who steal other people's water and makes them pay to drink it
http://studioeight.tv/phpbb/viewtopic.p ... el#p151160

.

they say time loves a hero
and I think time is on the side of the Palestinians
even if they do suffer more oppression now.
apples and oranges yes
"...just the thing in its self"

[stilltrucking]

Second thoughts


Yes the core issue is identity.
But it is difficult to rise above acculturation when your identity is saddled with two thousand years of religious persecution. But I am trying to rise above that,
I am working on my new identity as a citizen of the planet earth, to see the world as a Patagonian sees it.

I agree it would be best to leave God out of it if possible. God is what got us into this mess. I think that was what I was trying to say. please pardon my multiple replies,

I am out of this thread now, I all ready said everything I had to say, several times now

[panta rhei]

jack, of course you are right - for some, god IS who or what defines their identity. all i was saying was that god is not what the middle eastern conflict is about - even though several people (also several people involved) think or pretend it was...

and, no need to be sorry for anything! for me, it was just nice to 'meet' you again....

[Arcadia]

It helps to broaden sights to me the heartful approach Panta is giving and also the god loaded side mixed with post?imperialism s-t is highlighting... but about the power balance ... as long as I know the palestinians doesn´t have state, they are prisoners or expulsed from what it left to the swept of the land they were occuping, they are suffering an embargo, they can´t use "legally" their air space, their reach of the sea is limited ... Panta, if I understood well you talked about the need of arab governments taking responsability and humanity in this, in what governments were you thinking ?

[Doreen Peri]

.
This isn't true?

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/maps.html

[Atehequa]

Why, do you want to sit together in a good way and pass the pipe ? yes! where´s the pipe? (I only have at hand two mates and some cuban habanos but maybe they can help...! ).

Help with what ?

How about some Kinnikinnick ?

[Atehequa]

I grieve for the Palestinians, no less than for what my country has done to the first peoples here. No less for the slaughter in the Congo, or Rwanda, or Srebrenica. So many victims, too many victims.

[/quote]

I like botulism no less than spoiled seafood.

[Atehequa]

Double post deleted

[panta rhei]

.
This isn't true?
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/maps.html

are you referring to the sentence "historically, the land of palestine was populated by a people known as the palestinians"?

then no, this isn't true, is, at best, strongly simplified.

the term palestinians in its meaning of today exists since PLO's first charta in 1964 only. and as i have written in my earlier post, palestine is a geographic name for a region that has historically been known by many other names such as canaan, judaea, kingdom of judha/of israel, syria, zion, and therefore has been populated by canaanites, israelites, philistens, assyrians, etc.
then, much much later, during the british mandate of palestine, all people residing there have been called palestinians, no matter which religion or ethnicity they had (this also included the jewish population). today, the term palestininas is used for those who are culturally and linguistically arab (not necessarily muslim) and who live in the gaza strip and the west bank (now called palestinian territories).

to get more info about this particular topic that you keep asking about, i again suggest you check out these links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_perio ... _Palestine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people

.... apart from all names and namings though, the fact remains that there are millions of people who suffer due to their undefined status and unbearable life situation, due to ongoing threats of their lives and constant fear.

this is what needs to be solved, and this is the responsibility and challenge for all those involved who are in power...

Panta, if I understood well you talked about the need of arab governments taking responsability and humanity in this, in what governments were you thinking ?

@arcadia: i was talking about all those involved and in any power (power of influence, opinion making and propaganda as much as of concrete actions) - like egypt, saudi-arabia, iraq, iran, jordan, lebanon, syria...

(edited because the link didn't work... now it does!)

[Atehequa]

Second thoughts


Yes the core issue is identity.
But it is difficult to rise above acculturation when your identity is saddled with two thousand years of religious persecution. But I am trying to rise above that,
I am working on my new identity as a citizen of the planet earth, to see the world as a Patagonian sees it.

I agree it would be best to leave God out of it if possible. God is what got us into this mess. I think that was what I was trying to say. please pardon my multiple replies,

I am out of this thread now, I all ready said everything I had to say, several times now

I'm splitting as well. It's like being in unfamiliar territory across the river and spotting a massive heard of Buffalo. Spooked or angered they break into a run and with all the dust, horns and hooves, a hungry hunter cannot tell if he has just shot at someone else's sacred cow.