Sex and Emotions, Men and Women

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abcrystcats
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Sex and Emotions, Men and Women

Post by abcrystcats » April 7th, 2005, 5:55 pm

We live in a culture where talking about emotions is perfectly acceptable. It's not considered inappropriate, or weak, or embarassing, unless it's taken to extremes. Between men and women in dating situations, women frequently ask men questions that deliberately probe into their emotional lives. OK, so the woman may not come right out asking prying questions on the very first date, but at some point -- usually before sex has taken place -- she's asked lots of really deep questions, designed to give her the up close and personal view of the man's psyche.

We also live in a culture where talking openly about sex IS considered inappropriate, embarassing, rude, and possibly obscene. While women get to ask men lots of questions about their emotional lives, men don't get to ask women lots of questions about their sex lives. A woman can ask a man about the last time he cried -- what was it about? When was it? How did it FEEL? and nobody thinks this is a bit strange, if they're developing an intimate relationship. By contrast, very few men would dare to ask a woman about the last time she came -- What was the situation? When was it? How did it FEEL? If a man asked a woman this kind of a question before physical intimacy was established, she'd probably slap his face.

Am I right about this?

What I am leading up to is this: Women feel extremely comfortable talking about emotions. We don't feel so terribly comfortable talking about our sexuality. Men, I believe, feel very comfortable talking about their sexuality, but rather UNcomfortable talking about emotions, or even about their personalities.

Before I go on, I better say right off that I realize that the above statement is a generalization. I've met plenty men who feel more comfortable talking about emotions than sex, and I've met a few women who, under the right circumstances, will talk a blue streak about their sexuality. But, in GENERAL I find that women are reticent about sex, and men are reticent about emotions.

You may all feel that, even as a generalization, my statement is dead wrong. If so, tell me so. But before you do, consider that there are cultures, such as the Japanese for instance, where discussing emotions is taboo, but healthy sexuality (at least for men) is openly encouraged.

If you agree, I've got some questions.

The dumb question first: Men, why do you think you are naturally reticent to discuss emotions, but probably would relish having an explicit sexual conversation with a woman before getting physically intimate? Can you explain how you feel just before you clam up when a woman asks you explicit questions about your feelings?

Frankly, when a man I don't know very well emotionally starts asking me explicit questions about my sexuality -- in a dating situation -- I feel like telling him it's none of his damn business. That usually ends the contact, right then and there. Is that how a man feels when a woman asks about emotions or personality?

Why do men -- even men who are usually very open about themselves in a variety of situations -- suddenly clam up and become very private and guarded as soon as they realize they are being considered as a potential partner by a member of the opposite sex?

What's the best way for a woman to break through the natural male guardedness? Any suggestions? Please don't say "HAVE SEX!" :D

How do you suppose things got to be this way in Western culture? To me, that is the weirdest part of the whole subject. This is a patriarchy. Always has been. Just like in Japan, what the man wants is what goes. So how did we get to point where it's OK to talk about emotions, but obscene and rude to talk about sex? Seems to me things should have evolved very differently.

I could be totally washed up about this, but my opinion is that this is the sticking point in the development of most male/female relationships. Men are conditioned by the culture not to discuss sex and yet they feel darned uncomfortable revealing their personalities and emotions when talking to a potential mate. Women don't put out until they feel "safe" which usually means knowing the person's character and how they FEEL about things. But men clam up and get mysterious whenever there's a possibility for future sex, and that slows the process way down. It's like a staring contest, with each person waiting for the other to be the first to take that step into trust.

Comments?

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Arcadia
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Post by Arcadia » April 7th, 2005, 9:49 pm

good post, I´ll be waiting for the comments.

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Doreen Peri
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Post by Doreen Peri » April 7th, 2005, 10:34 pm

This is why the internet is such a boon to women.

In person, men rarely talk about their emotions or express their innermost thoughts, unless you know them very well.

On the internet, all we have is text, so men open up more and speak their minds and hearts which is why there are so many internet romances going on. Many women wish men were as verbal in person as they are on the internet.

Women are verbal creatures. We get intimate by verbal communication. We like to talk about ideas and express our emotions, verbally. Men, from my experience, anyway, seem to like to express their emotions in other ways.

I'm sort of taking an aside to your post, sorry. Maybe I should answer your questions, instead. :)

I don't know about other women. I've really never been close enough to any other women to discuss how they handle talking about sex.

But I don't think I have had any relationship where sex wasn't talked about and sexuality expressed verbally prior to becoming physically intimate. I only know about me. I enjoy talking about sex with a man who I'm infatuated with. It's a mutual thing.

Talking about sex with a man prior to intimacy is one of the most sexy, intriguing, exciting things about starting a new relationship! That's one of the best parts of the flirtation!

But yeah, it has to be invited. Sexual talk which is uninvited and unwelcome, when there really is no relationship at all, is just plain .... umm.... i donno...*shrug*... empty.... and almost... juvenile.

I don't know if I answered your questions or not. Just expressing my thoughts based on your post.

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Post by sooZen » April 8th, 2005, 6:58 am

Hummm, I probably shouldn't even be responding to this because I don't have any answers to your questions, only guesses.

To be certain, I have no clue as to what goes on in the dating arena as I haven't dated anyone for 30 plus years so what is happening between the sexes now and what was then are most likely not the same. But I do know a bit about relationships and how men and women communicate at least from a personal perspective.

Unlike Dor, I do have many women friends, friends that I spend time away from the men which I think is healthy and renewing. When we get together, we talk about men among other things but men are a hot topic of conversation...our men. Now, our men get together with each other and they talk about every'thing' except the women, their women.

We woman talk about our relationships, our sex lives, our children, our emotional selves, the guys talk about building a addition to the house, philosophies, politics. We crowd together, touch...they maintain a distance...women talk facing each other, the men talk facing the same outer direction...arms folded, emotions in check. It is the way it has always been. These men that I know do hug each other when they meet and when they part. They are there for each other when times are tough and emotional or tragedy strikes but they are hesitant to share their tears whereas we women weep all over the place.

Having been in a very long term relationship and it is the same for most of the women that I know, when we are discussing things with our mates, nothing is taboo. I can discuss any subject with him and he with me without recrimination but he prefers I don't poke his emotional center and like most of the men, prefers his 'sex talk' to be stimulating and to keep the emotional issues out of it or for another time.

We are different, men and women, in how we communicate and how we react. Part of it may be conditioning but most of it is just our wiring, how we are constructed, and what keeps us alive...survival tactics. Women have more connections between the hemispheres of the brain hence we may be more in touch...on all levels including emotions. Sex is a survival mode, the bottom line, and men are attracted to our physicality and not our sensitivities...at least not at first. We women want to know the intimate sides of a man, he wants to know the physical sides of the woman...all else follows.

Of course. like my disclaimer at the beginning of this ramble, I know nothing about dating...just some observations about relationships in my own life.

Peace,
SooZen
Freedom's just another word...



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Post by mtmynd » April 8th, 2005, 10:04 am

It's a wonder that men and women ever get together isn't it? :lol:

Woman/man... yin/yang... the differences are always, albeit they take different stances in cultures and in times but the conclusion is always the same - they meet, they mate, they reproduce, they question, they wonder, they ask, they love, they ... they... they...

Men basically don't share their emotions as easily as women because men are not as easily emotional as women... we don't cry at the drop of an emotion - not because we don't want to or fear tears, but simply because the cry is not there to cry under most circumstances.

Men don't share their hearts for fear of getting it broken.... same with women... fear of getting hurt on an emotional level - these things are the same for both sexes, for both genders, altho each takes a bit of a different approach, but for the same reason.

There is a lot of pain and hurt in this world of ours, so much brought on by ourselves, our humanity. Is it any wonder why we seek out another to share our fears and tears, to share our thoughts and dreams, our wishes and wants? It is this search for another that causes all the riffs - it is a sometimes long and arduous journey finding one that we feel safe with, and the journey is filled with many emotional rocks and ruts.

As a man this is my best shot, Cat. Hope it fits within your post.

:wink:

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Post by abcrystcats » April 8th, 2005, 11:13 am

So ... hmmm ... let me see what I can make of everything I've been told, so far.

Doreen:
On the internet, all we have is text, so men open up more and speak their minds and hearts which is why there are so many internet romances going on. Many women wish men were as verbal in person as they are on the internet.
Yes, this is true, and it is also true that once these same guys are aware that someone is interested, they shut up like little clams. They get all nervous and cadgey. Which makes me think that there is something inherently scary for men about revealing themselves, especially in a personal context.
But I don't think I have had any relationship where sex wasn't talked about and sexuality expressed verbally prior to becoming physically intimate. I only know about me. I enjoy talking about sex with a man who I'm infatuated with
Granted, and lots of women (including me) do the same thing. But, I am sure you'll agree that before this conversation takes place, you have to establish emotional intimacy.
Sexual talk which is uninvited and unwelcome, when there really is no relationship at all, is just plain .... umm.... i donno...*shrug*... empty.... and almost... juvenile.
And if I hadn't seen it SO MUCH, in all kinds of contexts, even where the male/female interaction wasn't leading in a sexual direction, I would agree about the juvenility. When you talk to men about personal things, they get squirmy. It's more comfortable for them to discuss their sexuality.

Soozen and Mtmynd: You are a couple. When I am in an intimate relationship with a man, these problems evaporate into thin air. Sure, some men are less comfortable with emotions than others, even in intimate relationships, but the ones I have been with are usually as open as I would like.

Back to my question -- which I suppose is more directed at men than women, now that I think about it --


Men, why do you think you are naturally reticent to discuss emotions, but probably would relish having an explicit sexual conversation with a woman before getting physically intimate? Can you explain how you feel just before you clam up when a woman asks you explicit questions about your feelings?
Why do men -- even men who are usually very open about themselves in a variety of situations -- suddenly clam up and become very private and guarded as soon as they realize they are being considered as a potential partner by a member of the opposite sex?
What's the best way for a woman to break through the natural male guardedness? Any suggestions? Please don't say "HAVE SEX!"
OK, LOL, I'm fishing with this last question! I admit I am asking for privileged information. Whatever ... :D


How do you suppose things got to be this way in Western culture?
I realize that the personal experiences of long-term couples are going to be totally different. Not asking so much for the experience of intimacy in established relationships -- I am asking for relflections about the visceral feelings a man might have when asked about his personality or feelings.

It's precisely the internet phenomenon Doreen mentioned that inspired this question. I've noticed that some men, peculiarly enough, can spill their guts like a house on fire to a relatively anonymous group of people, but once it gets more personal than that, BOOM! the doors slam shut! With me, as a woman, it's exactly the opposite. The better I know you, the more I'm gonna want to tell you. So, I am just trying to get the male perspective of it all, in order to understand it better.

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Post by Glorious Amok » April 8th, 2005, 11:17 am

personally, being feminine on the outside, but masculine on the inside, i think and usually act much more like a man. it's easy for me to talk about sex openly, but to talk about emotions is to open the floodgates, so i rarely do. and when i am called upon to speak frankly about emotions, i tend to dance around the points vaguely and leave things dangling, unexplained.

lust, passion, wants... these are things i can articulate. anger, jealousy, etc... these are things i wish would just be more quiet.
"YOUR way is your only way." - jack kerouac

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Post by panta rhei » April 8th, 2005, 1:49 pm

interesting topic, cat.

i totally agree with you about the male clam-ing when it comes to emotional issues in a more personal relationship (though i know quite a few men who are very 'feminine' in their ways to talk about how they feel), but have never experienced their stronger (stronger than the one of women) need to talk about sexual issues... in fact, in my experience, it is more often women who talk about it, not only among themselves, but also to their male friends and acquintances.

in a dating situation, however, i have found that both men and women circumnavigate each other like warm ships looking for the best place to melt their way through the still existing iceberg of the other one's reserve, and any way to heat up the atmosphere (emotional, generally personal, sexual topics) is as good as any to melt down the ice... the radiations just have to be responded to, or else they rapidly cool down below freezing point and just increase the iceberg.
Talking about sex with a man prior to intimacy is one of the most sexy, intriguing, exciting things about starting a new relationship! That's one of the best parts of the flirtation!
i totally agree with doreen on that. and this part becomes even hotter when also emotional approach (which means: talking about it) is involved, but sometimes, the sexual part is just enough (depends on what you're looking for at that moment in time).


... and, frankly, i don't quite know where i'm going to with this rambling - i'm definitely not answering your questions, but that's what came to my mind (and now i must stop as my daughter just returned from a chess tournament and wants dinner.... but i'll excitedly be following this thread!)

-a

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Post by ZyzxzxzyZ » April 8th, 2005, 2:22 pm

Why do men -- even men who are usually very open about themselves in a variety of situations -- suddenly clam up and become very private and guarded as soon as they realize they are being considered as a potential partner by a member of the opposite sex?

Perhaps I am mistaken, yet I wager this statement is based on, what, less than 10 different scenarios with men. In other words, what allows a person, female or male, to make such a claim? Are you saying every time you attempt to become intimate or private with a male he doesn't communicate any more? If you had perceived this behavior in say even 20 men, would be it fair to extend this to all men? This is the case with thousands or millions of males? I think you need to indicate your sample size. The discussion is somewhat interesting, but what is more interesting is how a claim is made which seems true, but which is undefined and in fact quite meaningless, yet people assume it's true. That is how a lot of pop psychology works: ala "Men are from Mars, women are from Venus" types of things which really are sort of an insult to rationality.

I don't think it's true, even in a general sense, that men discuss sex and women discuss emotions; indeed that is a bit of a sexist cliche, implying that all men are the guys hanging around the gym or barracks showing their girlie pics and the gals are little polite sentimental Miss Manners. The women I meet online are not like that. There are gals who might want to move in and live strapped to my bed, and first thing she wants is a cock pic. But I don't send it out immediately--got to get to know ya a bit first. If the gal is suitably intelligent, obedient, and polite, THEN you get the pic, str8 up. :twisted:

hester_prynne

Post by hester_prynne » April 8th, 2005, 7:44 pm

I've always preferred a relationship with a man who can talk about things beyond sex or his boring past! Heh. The thing is, I stick with what I prefer, and I do not undermine that ever. It's that simple!
I'm secure enough myself, (and it wasn't always that way), to hold out for a man who is in touch with and can relate his own emotions.
A man, or anyone, who can't do that bores me.

Aside from a couple of misjudgements on my part, I've never been in a relationship with a man who couldn't talk about his emotions, his dreams, his desires, his excitements. I couldn't fall in love with a a man who wasn't that way. I'd be accepting less than I want, hell, less than I desire!
When I accept less in a relationship I get just that. Less, and misery.

I think women do men a great disservice out of their own imagined self-silencing insecurities. The long suffering woman who does everything for a big dumb emotionally unavailable man.
yawn.
:roll:

We get what we ask for.
I always ask a man about his beliefs and feelings on the first date and thereafter. Why not, when things can change daily, or even minute to minute when it comes to the ways we feel about things, when we are alive and well and inspired. It's interesting stuff!
Why assume that a man wouldn't respond with a little more prodding? A better question might be why are women enabling emotional silence in men? Is it because he might get mad? or leave? Is it that simple and pathetic?
:roll:

Stop it ladies! Ask a man to tell you his feelings and if he doesn't want to ask him why. That's a start right there! If he rejects you for asking, or gets mad, well, then, leave him alone to his own devices. Maybe he'll develop some emotions then, and the next girl he meets will get some response.

I mean hell ladies, with all this enabling and controlling of men, and your own "long suffering" (yawn again) we're running out men that are interesting, alive and in touch with themselves! Quit making it so easy for men to wilt and become boring would ya?

I wonder, who is really doing the clamming up? Look closer. I think, it could actually be, that it's women.
H 8)

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Post by abcrystcats » April 8th, 2005, 7:49 pm

OBEDIENT? Now, there's a word ...


As for the rest of what you are saying, I agree. I didn't go out and do a survey, this is from personal observation, and that is going to be quite inadequate and subjective. Pop psychology ?? No, worse than pop psychology ... worse than hearsay, just my idea.

Probably totally incorrect.

One thing I noticed ... men aren't responding to the questions. Do you suppose that is because the questions are too personal ??


Hester: you and I agree on everything. Of course, if a man is not open and you would like an open man, the relationship doesn't happen. Somewhere in here, my point is getting missed or overlooked. I may not have expressed myself very well.

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Post by Doreen Peri » April 8th, 2005, 8:40 pm

Cat - heh... yeah, I found the "obedience" concept pretty amusing myself. Interesting that I thought I was writing sort of off-topic when I mentioned the internet, but you say communication on the internet was an inspiration for your post.

hest - I'm with you... I always want to know what a man I'm involved with is feeling and I come right out and ask. If a relationship is close, the man usually always opens up and talks about his feelings.... lots of times, even when not asked. If he doesn't? Well, I just figure he doesn't feel close enough to me to talk about his feelings and if that's the case, it won't last very long, that's for sure. There's nothing more beautiful than a man telling you how he feels...... especially when he's telling you how he feels about YOU! ;)

panta- i agree... talking about sexuality and emotions at the same time is the best..... yes!

sooZ - I have quite a few female friends and we talk about lots of things, including our relationships with our men, just like you. But I guess I've just never asked them or wanted to know if or how they talk about sex with a man.

To me, talking sexually to a man is sort of private, but then again, I write erotic verse quite often and post it on the internet and so, I guess I'm not all that private about it. :mrgreen:

gloriousOne - I can't imagine feeling male inside and female on the outside. All I can say to you is you're sexy as hell either way!

Thanks, Cat, for this topic... the topic and replies are very interesting....

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Post by mousey1 » April 8th, 2005, 9:18 pm

Christ you all sound so wise and together!

I'm so muddled.

Muddled and befuddled.

Am I the only one who doesn't know what the fuck I'm doing? :shock: It's all a guessing game. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Someone says this, someone says that, how do you know it's the truth.

Anyway, I'm readin' and listening'. Enjoying the weaving of the threads of thought.

PZ, a picture's worth a thousand words.... :roll: I'll take the words.
I used to walk with my head in the clouds but I kept getting struck by lightning!
Now my head twitches and I drool alot. Anonymouse

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hester_prynne

Post by hester_prynne » April 8th, 2005, 9:45 pm

Well, my point is that if men are indeed, unwilling to talk about their emotions then it's because they don't really have to, there's not reason enough, their needs are met so why bother with anything deeper?

Women string along with unsatisfying mates more than I can believe or bear! Women allow this, male "emotionlessness", even perpetuate it out of fear of loss of control and the relationship. I see it all the time! They inspire a sort of spiritual death in men, they hang onto them, take care of all their needs, and forget their own needs, or stuff them. Then, they go complain to other women about their horrid relationships, and then after that, they go home and get into the same bed with a person they have just trashed to all their friends.
Bleah!

My point is, that if women really wanted to know a man's emotions she could. I don't buy that she can't. I think it's hogwash and weakness and fear turned into a cliche that "men don't talk about their emotions". Bull. I'd like to know what the fear women have is.
Are women just too weak to go for what they really want? From what I see, alot of women would rather settle down in a long suffering miserable security.
Bleah again.

Men are usually very open with me, because if they aren't then they aren't around me. I won't have it. If I"m dating a man, it's because he's' a real man with emotions and opinions and a life and mind of his own. None of this mother/boyfriend type shit for me. I get a fair exchange of energies, spiritwise and emotionally as well as sexually. Nothing less will do.

That's that.
I won't coddle some guy who clams up on me. Nope.
What a crashing bore that would be!
You get my drift here? Just keep asking.
The worse that can happen is that he will leave you. Oh horrors! Your emotionally unavailable man has gone!
Oh dear! He's gonna find someone else to date, who won't ask, who will be miserable, and darn, it won't be you!

Things could be alot better and more interesting between men and women, if women weren't operating so much out of fear of rejection, or fear of being alone, putting up with things that are so
ridiculous!

Women, are creating a bunch of shut down, lazy, uninspired men.
That's really what seems to be the case!

Thanks alot goils!

:x
H 8)

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Post by abcrystcats » April 8th, 2005, 10:53 pm

Hester: I'm not coddling or planning on coddling ... anybody.

What I'm looking for here is ways to facilitate the process without making the man feel backed into a corner.

I thought it was an honest question.

Seems to me that's what we do: we back them into a corner, to ask them about things they already feel peculiar about. Then when they get weird about it, we dismiss them as not being the man for us.

How to achieve a balance? Can anybody drop a hint? Apparently not. The point of the post has already been demonstrated by the lack of serious male participation. Thank you, Mtmynd, I didn't mean you. We WOMEN are talking about it; the men are, for the most part, not touching it.

I counted 13 posts: ten are by women. Two are by men (one of whom denies the validity of the question) and one is of uncertain gender, but does not contribute anything to the discussion, just states he or she will be watching the thread. Sorry, Arcadia, I need to check your member listing!

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