Studio8 - Uniting the Arts

Hi Mousey...

Mouse droppings...you are so clever. (Stay outta my kitchen drawers!)

I enjoyed the stream, I don't dissect mice (no offense Trevor). Someone must do it especially IF we ask for it.

I guess some have different ideas as to what writing is and is for. These streams of yours I see as therapy, talking to yourself for crying outloud and imparting what it is you see. I see that but I may be all wrong (won't be the first time.)

Trevor sees some of it as 'preachy' but I must kindly disagree. I don't see it as preaching as much as talking to oneself and pointing to some things that are personal, issues that come to mind at the time.

No offense to Trevor (please) for I think (I should temper that inclination ) that he is mostly concerned with the quality of writing (tell me if I am barking up the wrong tablet) as opposed to the journaling aspect of stream of consciousness. I think it is good that someone would take the time to give you his opinion and work hard to do so with such a gentle hand.

Anyway, I loved the insight and peeks into the mousey mind. Please keep it up and I will be reading.

Thanks,
SooZen

Hi Soozen,


"I enjoyed the stream, I don't dissect mice (no offense Trevor). Someone must do it especially IF we ask for it. "

No offense taken, just as I hope you won't be offended by what I'm going to say in response... there is a difference between the art and the artist, just like there is a difference between dissecting a poem and a poet. I too enjoyed some of the stream of consciousness stuff she wrote, even made an earlier post about some of the things I really liked about them..... but the poem in question that I just commented on; she did state was a polished piece and asked IF I would comment on it. IF - I'm guessing being your central point since it was capitalized? I guess the irony in this for me is - I feel you are suggesting that my comments on what people write should be reserved only IF asked for, yet I don't remember asking you IF you would comment on what I just wrote when it didn't concern you.

"I guess some have different ideas as to what writing is and is for. These streams of yours I see as therapy, talking to yourself for crying outloud and imparting what it is you see. I see that but I may be all wrong (won't be the first time.)"

So you do dissect mice, you just use a different set of tools. I don't think commenting on why she writes is much different then commenting on what she writes, save for one is an opinion of the person, the other is of the work. You see it as her therapy, and perhaps it is, I know to some extent it is mine, but its also her voice and a way for her to communicate ideas, thoughts, feelings - not just for therapy, but also to engage with others.

"Trevor sees some of it as 'preachy' but I must kindly disagree.I don't see it as preaching as much as talking to oneself and pointing to some things that are personal, issues that come to mind at the time."

Well perhaps I'm wrong, but talking to oneself should not include the billion or so people who hang out on the internet, nor should it include these comments directed towards me:

"You're obviously no slouch and you don't pull the punch. This is good, very good. I want the straight dope"

"Okay, please let her rip....any advise or suggestions would be greatly and muchly appreciated I assure you."

Furthermore, because she has asked for comments and not stated that it is a self help piece, I have to believe it is up for scrutiny and it does come across preachy - she is basically telling the reader drugs are bad instead of showing us the downfall of a drug addicted artist. And when you have set a moral stance in a piece of writing then it is preachy because you are not allowing the reader to form an opinion, but rather telling them the moral context of the subject. And I hope when you read this Mousey you understand that I don't imply that about your poem in a mean spirited way.

"No offense to Trevor (please) for I think (I should temper that inclination ) that he is mostly concerned with the quality of writing (tell me if I am barking up the wrong tablet) as opposed to the journaling aspect of stream of consciousness."

Again none taken, why would I be offended by you stating that I'm concerned with the quality of the most important and versatile form of human communication ever concieved?;)

I am mostly concerned with the quality of writing as opposed to the journaling aspect of stream of consciousness when someone asks me for "any advise or suggestions would be greatly and muchly appreciated I assure you.", regarding a polished piece that isn't a stream of consciousness. I think if you go back and read all of Mousey's work on this thread it will be very apparent this poem in question is very different from the rest. Her word use is very intentional, as is the structure of the whole poem, as is its purpose. Plus she openly asks for comments...On an earlier thread or two, can't remember which ones, I did state that i'm not a huge fan of stream of conscious writing, though it has its place and I appreciate some of the great ideas which manifest from it, and although I didn't state its therapeutic benefits, I do agree it can definitely help people cope with problems plus its just fun to do sometimes for kicks alone.

"I think it is good that someone would take the time to give you his opinion and work hard to do so with such a gentle hand."

Well not to sound like a smart ass, but if you really do think its good then how come you aren't doing it? I mean you are taking the time to both coddle her and dismiss some of my comments, but here she is asking for comments on a poem, yet you aren't doing that which you just said is a good thing? I'm guessing you are a friend of hers, hence you rushing to comment on this, but she's pretty much a stranger to me...so if you are the friend, then why aren't you the one who just spent over two hours of their time giving her an open and honest opinion about her poem? I don't want this to sound mean because it isn't, however I will be blunt...are you sure your comments are about why Mousey writes and her work? Or is it you defending what and why you write?

Now I'm not trying to butt heads or offend, however, it almost sounds like you are defending sloppy writing - not that Mousey's writing is sloppy by any means, but it seems like you put "sincerity" over "quality" when it comes to writing....which is fine if you are just writing for therapy or shits and giggles, but it is sloppy writing if you choose to show your work, ask for opinions, and hope that it stands up on its own just because some heart has been thrown into it.

Now I probably didn't make any new friends with a lot of my comments but I was being as open and honest as I can be and hopefully none of what I said is taken offensively.

Now with that said, to avoid any more of these types of discussions in the future, I will take your hint and reserve my comments on the writing here to only IF asked for them.

Thanks, take care,

Trev

Thank-you Trevor and thank-you Soozen!

I appreciate your comments. I appreciate your time and your effort.

I am a "mouse" that can appreciate a good dissecting if those that wield the scalpel do so with a gentle hand and a kind eye. As a matter of fact I can also appreciate a dissection done coldly and detachedly but with skill.

I take happily and gratefully any comments anyone wishes to offer up.....it is no small thing to me when someone takes the time to even read let alone comment.

I don't know Soozen from Eve.
I don't know Trevor from Adam.
But oh how I would welcome an opportunity to know both. Wonderful in their own ways. "Side by each"

I want critique. Thank-you Trevor. You have given me much to ruminate on. The poem is preachy and I bemoan that, it does not come as a surprise to hear you say that.....it's just that overcoming it is proving difficult. Again, thanks for the helpful tips. Come back anytime.

And this mouse has to go to work!

I wanted to come back with some lovely eloquent response here but alas, this will have to do for now.



Thanks again.

Please, don't anyone hesitate to tell it like it is.

I crave that.

I'm learning. I believe an old dog, or mouse in this case, can learn new tricks, and I'm all ears. Just look at my avatar if you don't believe me!

Gotta go.

Trevor, you said...

Now with that said, to avoid any more of these types of discussions in the future, I will take your hint and reserve my comments on the writing here to only IF asked for them.

Seems to me every board I've gone to on the internet has some kind of rules (sometimes unspoken) regarding critique. This board doesn't really have that, though I did set up the Interpretation board the other day which clearly suggests critique.

Mousey1 asked for a critique and I think your critique was really well done!

The board SooZ used to frequent (Litkicks, which no longer has boards).... but when the boards were around, the local rules were that a person would put PC (Please Critique) on their title if they wanted a critique. But that doesn't mean people didn't get critiqued sometimes anyway if they didn't ask for a critique. I'm guessing that the PC manner of doing things is what SooZ is referring to. (please correct me if I'm wrong, SooZen).... But anyway, as you stated, mousey1 asked for a critique and you offered.

My opinion is that even if critique is not requested, someone's going to critique your work anyway if you post it on the internet. And I think this is a good thing. I used to not want critique, myself, unless I asked for it by posting to a critique board like Critic Corner. But as the years have gone by, I've realized that I should expect critique no matter where I post, whether I ask for it or not. And this is a good thing because I can take some of what's said to me, if I find it helpful, or none of it. That's my prerogative.

The thing is, any artist who puts their work out in public will get critiqued whether they request it or not. That's the way the world works. Put on a play? Somebody reviews it. Publish a book? More reviews and critiques. Show your art in a gallery? Critiques come back. Always.

I have known you on the net for 7 years and have always enjoyed and profited from your critiques, which, as you know, you have offered whether I ask you to critique or not. You are one of the most adept critiquers (is that a word?) I know. Some people don't know how to critique with "a gentle hand" as SooZ stated. But what I treasure most about your critique style is this.... You point out the parts that worked for you, as a reader and fellow writer. Then you are honest, completely and totally honest, about which parts of the work you think could be improved. You offer constructive ideas for improvement using your own skills in the craft, which I respect very much. But it's the honesty that I adore, mostly. You are kindly honest, and yet you will not hesitate to tell someone that the entire piece didn't work for you, if that's what you think.

We all need support and encouragement, no doubt about that. And we all enjoy applause. But I have been on sites where that's ALL there is in the comments. Applause. After a while "Great poem" just gets old. I used to take those comments to heart. It made me feel good. But to find out that the same people who are applauding my work with a word like "brilliant" are also applauding work which is crappola, in my opinion, as "brilliant." This takes a lot away from the applause. LOL!

I truly hope you continue doing exactly what you've been doing through the years. If a person puts their writing out there and you feel compelled to critique it, go for it! Nobody I know critiques as gently and honestly as you do (oh, except me, of course! lol)

I've been reading your comments about stream of consciousness writing vs. polished writing. I like both, myself, but I do especially enjoy the pieces where I can see that the author worked on honing the writing, choosing just the exact words.

I spent a lot of time on the Action Poetry board on Litkicks. It was inspiring to write spontaneously like we do on the Jams. But I found I was getting sloppy. I stopped dating my pieces. I rarely worked on them. I would write them, file them, call them finished. But many could have been developed into much better pieces had I only spent more time working on them. I see that now when I'm digging through my archives looking for pieces to perform. Most of my work needs editing badly!

At any rate, we have way too many boards on here already. But I think you have inspired me to alter the focus of the new "Interpretation" forum to include the terms "critique" and "polished pieces."

I have fond memories of the very early Open Scroll days on Critic Corner. Critique can really be helpful in a community where talents abound and community members care about helping their fellow writers.

I've rambled. This post is written terribly. I don't know where I'm going with it.

I'll just finish up and say thank you to mousey1 ..... thanks to SooZ... and thanks to Trevor for your participation here.

I just love this thread! I absolutely love it! And I love all of you, too! (mushy me... lol)

Mousey...first of all, sorry this discussion has fallen under your poetry thread. This is my fault and I apologise for cluttering up what otherwise was something you created and wanted to hear feedback on.


Trevor you said:

Well not to sound like a smart ass, but if you really do think its good then how come you aren't doing it? I mean you are taking the time to both coddle her and dismiss some of my comments, but here she is asking for comments on a poem, yet you aren't doing that which you just said is a good thing? I'm guessing you are a friend of hers, hence you rushing to comment on this, but she's pretty much a stranger to me...so if you are the friend, then why aren't you the one who just spent over two hours of their time giving her an open and honest opinion about her poem? I don't want this to sound mean because it isn't, however I will be blunt...are you sure your comments are about why Mousey writes and her work? Or is it you defending what and why you write?

Well, I can't say I rushed to comment, I took my time.

I don't know Mousey any more than I know you although I find her output witty and creative and wouldn't mind her at all as a friend.

Like any critique, the comments are subjective and the critic is only as good as the respect his/her knowledge and suggestions garner. I gather that this is something that you enjoy and take pride in doing. Now I don't agree with every critic and in fact when it comes to some of the other genres I enjoy...a bad critique by some is a good clue that I may want to sample for myself.

You don't know me, you don't particularly like the type of poetry I write and enjoy reading (spontaneous streams) and that is fine. Please know I felt just as free to disagree with your assessment as you felt free to make it. Maybe you think Ginsberg was 'preachy' for example, but until I read more of what 'type' of poetry you, yourself write and enjoy, how can I know other than what is written here with your recent critiques?

You ask why I don't spend the time that you do critiquing others poetry? First of all, as I told you when you took the time and effort to critique a poem that I wrote...I don't see myself as a 'writer' or a 'poet' although I have been fortunate enough to have been published a few places. I used to write grants for a living but now I am an artist, and as such, I take great pride in what I do and if someone walked into my space and started 'criticising' my creative output, I would want to know what expertise they come with. When I see what I consider poor or sloppy work by others, it is not my inclination to tell them as the artist's ego knows no bounds and I am no glutton for punishment. I let my work and art stand on its own, a reflection of the care and love of what I do.

I will take Doreen's word that what you do is helpful to her and others that you have critiqued and that she appreciates your viewpoint in order to polish her poetry. Mousey also has stated that she appreciates your take. So be it.

Good lesson for me to mind my own business.

Peace,
SooZen

Hi Mousey,

No worries about the crit. hope some of it was helpful or at least thought provoking enough to inspire you to take a second look at the poem.


Hi Doreen,

"I truly hope you continue doing exactly what you've been doing through the years. If a person puts their writing out there and you feel compelled to critique it, go for it!"

First off, thanks. Secondly, in the future I won't be critiquing on this site unless specifically asked for my opinion or inside the interpretation section. I find these types of discussions really exhausting and usually fruitless. It's always been the same at every forum, the majority don't want opinions, they want ego boosters. Even at PIP in a forum that I helped moderate years ago called Critical Analysis, a lot of people were against criticism. Personally, false praise is as much an insult as false hate.

"I'm guessing that the PC manner of doing things is what SooZ is referring to. (please correct me if I'm wrong, SooZen)."

So you mean the PC manner of doing things in this forum is to only give praising critiques...like - "nice job!", which is a critique, albiet short and useless...so critiquing is okay in this forum, as long as its what author wants to hear.

"Applause. After a while "Great poem" just gets old. I used to take those comments to heart. It made me feel good. But to find out that the same people who are applauding my work with a word like "brilliant" are also applauding work which is crappola, in my opinion, as "brilliant." This takes a lot away from the applause. LOL!"

For sure. Totally agree. When I first started showing my work I went through the same thing. I stopped showing for years after that because I felt I could not trust anyone to be honest. That's why honesty is so important. How can I take anyone serious who praises crap?...and we all write crap now and again. Their words mean nothing if its bullshit lip service....and its also insulting. My opinions are never the "truth" about the work I critique, but it is the truth about my thoughts on the work. I just don't see how anyone can claim to care about art then lie their asses off about what they think of artistic work. That is one of the most damaging things you can do to art or an artist....it does nothing but dellude them and dillute their work.

"I like both, myself, but I do especially enjoy the pieces where I can see that the author worked on honing the writing, choosing just the exact words."

Now this is not directed towards you, but rather a general point I'd like to make....Here's my example of the big difference between polished and winging it:

What is more moving, a garage band jam or Debussy's "Claire De Lune"?

What leaves you in awe, an abstract arrangement of colours and shapes or the Sistine Chapel?

What is more inspiring, the steady stream of free flow poets at open mic night, or the collected works of Cummings?

The vast majority, if asked what is their fav song, fav book or fav painting will almost always note something that is not off the cuff but is a refined, intentional, polished piece of art. Worked art is like a sharpened arrow that penetrates the mind, heart and soul, digging in and inspiring us to be, if only for a moment, a better person...where as the vast majority of stream of conscious works are nothing more than post it notes begging to be greater.

I didn't have a chance to comment on something Mousey said earlier regarding free flow being the starting point of great work...and i totally agree, but usually, not always, winging it and sending it out into the world as is, usually ends up as flat as a tap dancer's souffle.

"I've rambled. This post is written terribly. I don't know where I'm going with it. "

Me either, what the fuck are you trying to say??? LOL..kidding of course. I think you made some really good points.

Hi Soozen,

"Well, I can't say I rushed to comment, I took my time.
I don't know Mousey any more than I know you although I find her output witty and creative and wouldn't mind her at all as a friend."

My apologies for assuming the above, I thought perhaps you were compelled to defend a friend's work because if you had taken the time to read what Mousey wrote (asking for a critique and the actual poem it was regarding), then perhaps you may not have bothered with some of your comments. Instead I felt you rushed in, rather than forming a well based rebuttal to what I had written in my critique, to defend that writing style and to dissaude me from commenting further on other people's work unless I was solicited.... ie. "IF we ask for it. " .


"You don't know me, you don't particularly like the type of poetry I write and enjoy reading (spontaneous streams) and that is fine."

You're right, spontaneous stream poetry isn't my favourite but I only say that because generally speaking, in that format, so much crap is put out to the public in comparison to other styles. I say public because these are public forums. However, that has no bearing on what may or may not be a good poem regardless of format. Nor does it mean that i can't appreciate or comprehend a well written poem in any format including spotaneous streams. I'm not a huge fan of sonnets, but I think Shakespeare was a brilliant writer who put out a tremendous amount of spectacular work. I don't like mushrooms either, in fact they make me want to throw up, but I do know what they are supposed to smell and taste like.

"Please know I felt just as free to disagree with your assessment as you felt free to make it."

For sure, I totally realize it. Not only that but I openly welcome comments on my critique...but I do find it odd coming from someone who was just advocating only giving opinions IF asked for them. I was trying to point out earlier, I find it strange you have no trouble speaking up about someone's opinion of a poem if you disagree, yet shy away from forming or sharing a direct opinion with the author (unless of course its praise).

"Maybe you think Ginsberg was 'preachy' for example, but until I read more of what 'type' of poetry you, yourself write and enjoy, how can I know other than what is written here with your recent critiques?"

What does your opinion, of my opinion on Ginsberg have to do with Mousey asking me for my opinion of her work? Do you think if we agree on Ginsberg that suddenly my opinion on other works should be accepted? I'll gladly dissect some Ginsberg for you if you will do the same. Read both Mousey's poem and my critique with a critical eye and then tell me if my comments are way off base...and all this wariness towards my writing credentials coming from a woman who states " don't see myself as a 'writer' or a 'poet' " and tends to only put out gold star comments.

"I take great pride in what I do and if someone walked into my space and started 'criticising' my creative output"

So you liken a billion people sharing the internet to your space? You find posting poetry on the internet the same as painting or sculpting in your workshop? You think opinions of a poem posted on the internet is the same as walking into your space and criticising your creative output? I bet you'd gladly welcome a thousand "Brilliant Poem!!!" false criticisms, yet you'll shriek at the one "I dislike it." honest criticism. When I tell someone that I think their poem is wonderful, I mean it with every part of who I am and they know I mean it as well because I also usually offer reasoning to my rhyme. When I say a poem is great, the poet knows their work has truly inspired me because I don't hand them out to every shit poem written. What does it mean when you say it? Are you just saying it so when they read your work, they will say the same thing?

"I would want to know what expertise they come with."

So a valid, logical, well stated point is only as good as the papers attached to the person making them? If someone tells you a rock is falling on your head, do you need to know if they studied the effects of gravity first? Basically it sounds as if before someone tells you what they think, you need to find out if they think just like you.

"When I see what I consider poor or sloppy work by others, it is not my inclination to tell them as the artist's ego knows no bounds and I am no glutton for punishment."

Ugh, more artist mythos bullshit. Even a painter like Pollock, who's claim to fame was "direct painting", studied his ass off(which comprises of both being critical and recieving criticism), practised (the same) and recieved direct positive and negative criticism from his peers and teachers. Furthermore, when an artist shows their work, they are asking your opinion of it, unfortunately some just want to hear the good comments so they can live in a bubble or some don't have the artistic integrity to provide an honest opinion.
If I were a pyschologist I would probably say it sounds like you don't comment on sloppy work to save your feelings, not theirs...because you refer to their work in regards to your feelings of punishment. You are probably so worried someone will dislike your work that you would dare not say you disliked someone elses....just an opinion.

And I know some just write for pleasure or therapy, it is a valid reason to write, but they wouldn't post it if they didn't want feedback. Why else would someone post? I mean this is an artist's forum called Creative Writing on a site design to promote art and not Dr. Schmell's Group Therapy Session.

"I let my work and art stand on its own, a reflection of the care and love of what I do."

Great, but why should someone like what you've done?... because you care and love it? Fine and dandy, but don't show it if you are afraid someone won't like it based solely on your love of your own work. So I have to ask, why do you show your work?

Why must I be subjected to someone's opinions or criticisms of the world in artistic form inside a public place yet be silent unless asked to respond or only say "nice" things? Isn't art and the showing of such about response? Isn't art a reactionary thing?

"I will take Doreen's word that what you do is helpful to her and others that you have critiqued and that she appreciates your viewpoint in order to polish her poetry. Mousey also has stated that she appreciates your take. So be it."

I will gladly admit that my critiques aren't as useful as posting the lyrics to "Si me voy antes que vos", in response to a poem then having another person translate the song lyrics...but hopefully there is a place for open, honest critiques IF someone asks for them.

"Good lesson for me to mind my own business."

Too bad that's the only lesson you gained from this discussion. So be it.

Take care,

Trev

I wonder what the hell is wrong with this picture. I don't know why their is a problem, did you slip some sarcasm into your critique, did you make a personal attack. I must have missed it. Mousey1 asked you to give it to her cold. You did, that should have been end of stroy, so what happened? NOw we have a critique of your critique. I love this place. I thought you gave mousey exactly what she wanted. I thought you did a good job but I didn't really think about it that much. I think you ought to keep on keeping on when some one asks you to. I thought the poem was a little Naïve is that what you meant by preachy. I should have told her that. But I liked the poem and figured what the hell it sounds good, does it have to have meaning.


You got to be carefull what you ask for. I admired Eugene Debs when I was a kid. I had no desire to rise above the masses. I wanted to rise with them. So now I sit in the tattered rags of old age and wait for the great rising.

Speaking of song lyirics:

I've seen the needle
and the damage done
A little part of it in everyone
But every junkie's
like a settin' sun.

BTW I would like to issue you a standing invitation to critique anything of mine that you think is worth your time. I write so much crapola when the compulsion is on me to scribble i don't expect anybody to take it seriously.

Hi Trucking,

"I wonder what the hell is wrong with this picture. I don't know why their is a problem, did you slip some sarcasm into your critique, did you make a personal attack."

Nothing is wrong with the picture. Just a friendly discussion about art and commentary. I don't think I was sarcastic in my critique, at least I hope it didn't come off like it. I think Sooz and I just have differing opinions.

"You did, that should have been end of stroy, so what happened? NOw we have a critique of your critique."

Like I said in my post, I have no problems with comments (negative and positive) on my critiques and truly do welcome them. In no way was I offended that Soozen did not agree with my comments about Mousey's poem...just a little annoyed that someone says they don't critique then spends time critiquing my critique, questioning my validity (not the validity of my critique), and defending her writing style rather than using that time to offer Mousey helpful insight on her poem - on a thread that is put here for her poetry. I guess that's where the burr is for me.

"I thought the poem was a little Naïve is that what you meant by preachy."

Naive wasn't really what I was hinting at, more of the poem was too blatent and gave the reader a moral stance rather than a developed story for the reader to base a moral stance upon.


"I thought the poem was a little Naïve is that what you meant by preachy. I should have told her that. But I liked the poem and figured what the hell it sounds good, does it have to have meaning."

You don't owe me an explanation....For the record, I'm not trying to tell people how to critique or who, when, what to critique...I'm not saying everyone should spend two hours dissecting a poem....Nor am I trying to say that my critiques are stone tablets....all I was doing was expressing mild dismay that someone took the time to tell me they don't critique, then go on to crit my critique, defend their favourite style of writing and politely let me know that I should keep my opinions to myself unless they are asked for (or are praising)....meanwhile barely saying boo about the poem in question. Well I guess that's not all I was trying to do, was also stating why I consider honest crits important and things of that nature as well.

"BTW I would like to issue you a standing invitation to critique anything of mine that you think is worth your time. I write so much crapola when the compulsion is on me to scribble i don't expect anybody to take it seriously."

Wow, an invite to do more work...lucky me!!! J/K ...I enjoy critiquing because it allows me to read new work from poets you don't always find in book stores, and also because I find looking at writing in more critical way has helped my writing in return...not only from the work itself but often from discussions that follow. Well if you have no problem with criticism, both good and bad, useless and helpful, then I might take you up on that invite in the future. BTW its all worth my time, not like the time and energy I put into an opinion is more valuble than what a person puts into their poem.

Take care,

Trev

Yes vanity is a bitch.

Think Ted Williams, you took your best shot, sometimes you hit one out of the park. Then you strike out. The fans boo, the fans cheer. He just loved to play.

I'm not quite sure how this got so 'uncomfortable', to put it lightly, but in reviewing this thread I see where BB came in and stated, in part -

No offense to Trevor (please) for I think (I should temper that inclination Wink ) that he is mostly concerned with the quality of writing (tell me if I am barking up the wrong tablet) as opposed to the journaling aspect of stream of consciousness. I think it is good that someone would take the time to give you his opinion and work hard to do so with such a gentle hand.

I boldly quoted a pertinent part of this thread... a gentle response that got rather askewed, IMHO.

Critiques are delicate matters, or at least should be, in order for them to be accepted by the person being critiqued. But this is not often the case... so many critics make a living off off outspoken nastiness towards that which they are critqueing that that POV (edgy natstiness) becomes more important than the original intent. Not that this is what happened here..!

Simply put - any critic is as sensitive to their 'art' of criticism as the artist being judged.

Wow Mousey...looks like your Mouse Droppings have turned into a steaming pile...

Trevor, My first response was not a "critique of your critique" as you continue to exert, it was written to Mousey (not specifically to you) and expressed my feelings about what she had written.

Seems I touched a sore spot with you although in re-reading what I said, I don't understand why you responded in such a way. You critiqued my response, but throughly, and not very kindly and then continued to take everything I responded with and cut it into pieces with some not so subtle stabs.

I feel a bit wounded and this is a good time for me to take a break.

I said:

"I take great pride in what I do and if someone walked into my space and started 'criticising' my creative output"

You responded:

So you liken a billion people sharing the internet to your space?

My space is my tent space on the arts and crafts circuit.

And I assure you, many artists do have large and fragile egos and perhaps that is why they respond to you like they do especially if you are vocal about their faults.

I learn something new everyday and your "too bad that's all you learned" is just another lesson in communications.

Mousey, I'm truly sorry this happened and I promise you, this is my last post on the matter.

Peace,
SooZen

Mousey, I'm truly sorry this happened and I promise you, this is my last post on the matter.

Please, no need to apologize. I find all of this discussion most intriguing and thought provoking. I appreciate the writing, the different takes, I'm getting alot out of this. Of course I don't enjoy if feelings are getting hurt or if toes are trod upon. I just think it's an important discussion and mind not at all if the words continue.

Wow Mousey...looks like your Mouse Droppings have turned into a steaming pile...

Heh heh heh.... you're funny.

A steaming pile is better than a dried up pile of shit dust eh wot?.....shows there's life. To my eye these posts are gems. Other people's thoughts intermingled with mine. There's alot to be gleened. I don't think anyone's feelings should be hurt and hope they are not.

I have been thinking alot of the thoughts brought up here. I enjoy reading other people's work and I want to feel free to comment but I have picked up hints that some may just want to be read only. So that's what I do. I muzzle myself. I don't understand it though. What use is there in posting your stuff if you don't have any idea how it's coming off. I want to know if something of mine is reeking to high heaven. My nose has been known to let me down. My eyes become nearsighted, old and tired, so I welcome a fresh pair of eyes. I absolutely love seeing through other people's eyes, smelling through their noses!

I really think people should state clearly whether they want responses to their work or not.

Here's what I've started to do. I make mental notes as to how I think certain posters want to be treated. Rightly or wrongly I pick up signals and act on them accordingly.

If I post to someone's work and they ignore my post I assume my input is not wanted or appreciated. Henceforth I read only. Sometimes I stop reading their work altogether making another assumption that they could care less one way or the other. I decide their work must be there for some personal reason, perhaps therapy that has nought to do with me.

I'm new to this board. I assume alot. I'm also new to jamming and to stream of consciousness writing. I think I see how this stuff is supposed to go but who knows for sure....it's all bloody guesswork to me.

I just know I like it here. I'm growing really fond of some special people. I am always tickled to read their writing. I feel welcome to respond to them in whatever way I wish. Sometimes there are misunderstandings and I hate that, but it's bound to happen. When a person takes the time to respond it means something, that person took an interest, is not that a good thing? I think it should not be ignored. If I am ignored that too means something. It's all up for interpretation and alot of times I've only got my gut to go on. My gut can steer me wrong....often it tells me to "Aw go ahead have another doughnut or three, what can it hurt!" I obediently listen, tis not the right choice, ah well, I suffer the consequences....me oh my!

Anyway....

still trucking:

naive

Bastard!!!!!! I am joking, joking, joking. If you think something by all means tell me! Worst I can do is call you a SOB!!!!!!! Or do this.....
Your input is always welcome. Pitch on pal.

Doreen, you made complete sense.....this time.....but only because I agree!!!! It was nice to see you in my droppings! You know what I mean.

Trevor, you're "great" , really! I asked for a fresh eye and you didn't disappoint, I absolutely appreciate your comments. I took what you had to say in the spirit it was offered. Your critique was well done and well received by me. You are thoughtful and generous with your time. It is obvious you deeply care about writing, about craft.

You're all a wonderful bunch of bananas! And that is a compliment! I am but an insignificant fruit fly looking to be inspired....or perhaps the little malformed banana who just likes to hang around with you.

And on that absurd note I bid you adieu.

I feel a stream coming on!
Too much coffee I guess!
Tiss off to the bathroom
for a p...
tinkle.

Au revoire!

Hi Soozen,

"Trevor, My first response was not a "critique of your critique" as you continue to exert"

Well you did mention me three times in that post 1) hinting that I should only comment IF asked to 2) rebuttaling my "preachy" comments regarding Mousey's work with some vague statement 3) talking about concern over quality vs. journal type stream of conciousness - which has nothing to do with the polished piece of poetry Mousey showed - so by that point it was apparent you really didn't really read Mousey's poem or the critique – looking at something and reading it are two different things.

Furthermore you later stated: "Please know I felt just as free to disagree with your assessment as you felt free to make it."

So perhaps it wasn't as direct a critique of my comments as most critiques are, however, by your own words you state that you are commenting on my critique – which is a critique in itself. Plus I think there was enough of me mentioned in your post to warrant a return response.

"Seems I touched a sore spot with you although in re-reading what I said, I don't understand why you responded in such a way."

Not a sore spot, and honestly I wasn't and am not offended; more or less your comments just irritated me and I'll tell you why. First off, you respond to a critique and a poem that you didn't even take the time to read properly. Your initial response didn't even focus on the specific poem that Mousey posted for people to critique but instead went into a subtle explanation of stream of conscious writing. There is a blatant specific theme and technique Mousey used in her poem. Secondly, you have the nerve to drop the hint that i should only comment on work IF asked for, taking the time to capitalize IF, which is a pretty condescending way to talk to someone. Thirdly, you go on to question the validity of my critique, without even addressing what is in the critique, by stating, "I would want to know what expertise they come with." – again, this coming from a woman who only puts up “nice work” critiques.

Fourthly, you go on to say this:

"I will take Doreen's word that what you do is helpful to her and others that you have critiqued and that she appreciates your viewpoint in order to polish her poetry. Mousey also has stated that she appreciates your take. So be it."

Which wouldn't have irritated me further if it wasn't for the "so be it" at the end. Either it is a completely redundant “so be it”, or it is, “I disagree with them but so be it” . If the later is the case - which is the context it is most commonly used as, then you are saying that you disagree with my critiques being helpful, but will take Mousey and Doreen's word on it. Which is a fair enough statement, and I wouldn’t have been irritated by it if I thought you had actually studied the poem and the critique you commented on.

“You critiqued my response, but throughly, and not very kindly and then continued to take everything I responded with and cut it into pieces with some not so subtle stabs.”

Well is a boat that's so easy to put holes in a wise choice for sailing? LOL...I'm just kidding with that one

I won’t apologize for being thorough or dissecting something to pieces - even though you make it sound like it is something bad. However, I realize sarcasm often finds its way into my responses, so I do apologize if you found some of my pokes and prods hurtful. It’s not my intention to hurt your feelings but rather stir discussion. I'm not out to get you are waging some Sooz-hunt. Personally I felt I was keeping everything above the belt, but again, if I hurt your feelings I do apologize. However, your hurt feelings, or my apologies, doesn’t dismiss the topic at hand. So I have to ask, hurtful or not, was there any “truth” in my responses? Feel free to pick out the parts where you thought I was wrong, hurtful, off basis, or off colour and I will gladly discuss them with you, just as I hope vice versa can occur.


"I said:
"I take great pride in what I do and if someone walked into my space and started 'criticising' my creative output"

You responded:
So you liken a billion people sharing the internet to your space?

My space is my tent space on the arts and crafts circuit. "

Now I have no idea why you were so offended by this. Do you liken tent space for selling artistic crafts to; sharing the internet with a billion people? Is that really a mean question? Furthermore, I have to ask if you wouldn't appreciate a customer telling you what they like and dislike about your product? Do you value your customer's opinion or feel they should just want to buy your work because of the pride you have in it, or the love you show for it? Mousey was trying "sell" me her poem, and I wasn't "buying" it as is, so I told her why. Wouldn't you like to know how you could sell more jewelry? I guess you don't want to know my opinion of your jewelry unless I tell you I think its great. That was another thing that irritated me - you don't want anyone criticising your creative output, but you welcome it with open arms if comes in the form of praise, even if at times it is false praise.

"And I assure you, many artists do have large and fragile egos"

Again my response has to be - more artist mythos bullshit. I suppose some do have fragile egos, but no more than any other sector of society. I'll wager sensitivity is not exclusive to art. I know just as many thick skinned artists as I do ego based ones. Sure an artist puts out their thoughts and feelings to show the world and is disheartened if rejected...sure that's a blow to the ego...but then again so is being trapped in a dead end job filling coffee cups when you always thought you'd be so much more. So is pushing papers at an insurance company for the rest of your life when you don't even believe in the company's policies...so is breaking up with a girlfriend/boyfriend or a divorce ...and so on.

"and perhaps that is why they respond to you like they do especially if you are vocal about their faults."

1) How do they respond to me? 2) Again, don't confuse the art and the artist. My critiques are never comments on an artist's faults, its about the choices made in their work....which isn't really a fault, but rather a decision which I may or may not agree upon. Btw, when did disagreement become so unfashionable?

"I learn something new everyday and your "too bad that's all you learned" is just another lesson in communications. "

Actually that comment I do have to apologize for as well. Didn't mean for it to be as is and that blunt. I thought I had written more on it, stating that I hope you perhaps came away with an understanding of why it may be important to be open and honest with a critique instead of a "nice work" blurb. But apparently I only wrote that in my mind and it didn't make it on to the post like I thought it had. I should have been more careful reviewing it before I posted. So again, my apologies for this part being mean sounding. It is a lesson in communications - the effects of poor communications on my part.

A point I'd like to make....is it being fair, honest or just, to say "wonderful!" to every poem, then with the same mouth call the greatest literary works "wonderful!" as well? Where is the distinction, and if there is no distinction, why bother with a comment at all. Lets just assume that all art is indeed wonderful because someone had a feeling once and decided to paint, sculpt, write or compose - and let it stand on that merit alone.

Now all of above, and what I posted earlier is not an attack on you Soozen. I'm not looking for a whipping post. You seem like a very nice lady and if we were talking about something we agreed upon you'd probably think me a nicer man..lol However, some of my slice and dicing, pokes and prods, was questioning your comments. Just as you stated you were compelled to comment on what I had written, I am compelled to respond to that. I had hoped you would have taken what I wrote more to head then to heart. I also hope this discussion, or my comments, won't deter your participation in any of these forums.


All the best,

Trev

Mousey, obviously, I am liar! Here I am again...

Trevor, I think that this is a series of miscommunications an misunderstandings of differing points of view. Your language in response to me seemed a bit demeaning and dismissive, at least that is how I took it. You asked for examples:

Well you did mention me three times in that post 1) hinting that I should only comment IF asked to 2) rebuttaling my "preachy" comments regarding Mousey's work with some vague statement 3) talking about concern over quality vs. journal type stream of conciousness - which has nothing to do with the polished piece of poetry Mousey showed - so by that point it was apparent you really didn't really read Mousey's poem or the critique – looking at something and reading it are two different things.

"some vague statement"? okay, I didn't think it was vague, it was just my take.

"apparent you really didn't read Mousey's poem or the critique..."
I didn't? That's news to me. I thought I did but maybe you know me better?

Plus I think there was enough of me mentioned in your post to warrant a return response.

I mentioned you only because I didn't want to offend you or your point of view, just give mine. I thought I did it tactfully, apparently you didn't.

Not a sore spot, and honestly I wasn't and am not offended; more or less your comments just irritated me and I'll tell you why. First off, you respond to a critique and a poem that you didn't even take the time to read properly.

Maybe I should work on that reading properly stuff.

Secondly, you have the nerve to drop the hint that i should only comment on work IF asked for, taking the time to capitalize IF, which is a pretty condescending way to talk to someone

I was being condescending by capitalizing IF? More misunderstanding, I think.

Thirdly, you go on to question the validity of my critique, without even addressing what is in the critique, by stating, "I would want to know what expertise they come with." – again, this coming from a woman who only puts up “nice work” critiques.

"Coming from a woman..." Sorry, but I don't think you know me well enough to make a statement like that as it is another assumption about what I do or say about other's work. Have you read everything I have written in response to others? I know nothing about you or why you feel you are an expert in poetry critique. When I said I would want to know the expertise they come with...I would value someone's critique and take it more seriously if I knew they had some expertise in what they were critiquing. That is all I was saying and I think it is valid.

I guess you don't want to know my opinion of your jewelry unless I tell you I think its great. That was another thing that irritated me - you don't want anyone criticising your creative output, but you welcome it with open arms if comes in the form of praise, even if at times it is false praise.

Hummm, I irritated you quite a bit, it seems. Another bit of misunderstanding and assumption. I don't mind constructive criticism, especially if it is coming from someone that knows something about what it is that I do. If you or some Joe Blow walked into my tent and started telling me how to do my work or criticising it, I would tend to take it with a grain of salt knowing you know nothing about my craft. I have had a very few ignorant folks walk in and say something to the effect that they can get something similar and cheaper at a department store. No, they can't. Each piece I make is unique and hand crafted, not made in a sweat shop in a third world country by exploited peoples. Besides, most of the feedback I get from my customers is positive and my workmanship is guaranteed if they are not satisfied. They can buy it or not if they choose. I am not out to just sell jewelry, I am doing it for other reasons other than just making a buck. As you can probably tell, I feel passionate about what I create. If someone comes into my tent wearing a piece that they made and I admired its workmanship, I would gladly and have gladly listened to them if they have something to say about what I have done, good or bad. And I am not interested in "false praise", not in the least.

I hope you perhaps came away with an understanding of why it may be important to be open and honest with a critique instead of a "nice work" blurb.

I will never pass up a chance to tell someone when I appreciate or enjoy what they do and I will leave the critiquing to those that enjoy it. I don't. I know what I like and if I don't like it, I leave it alone as I am no expert and know little about what makes a good poem. Now if you want to discuss haiku... I have a least studied that but there are hundreds if not thousands of opinions in that writing field and I don't claim expertise there either as I consider myself always a student.

Again my response has to be - more artist mythos bullshit. I suppose some do have fragile egos, but no more than any other sector of society. I'll wager sensitivity is not exclusive to art.

Ahhh, but I have to disagree with you here again for artists are unlike insurance agents or coffee shop workers in that what they are putting a part of themselves out there, exposed to the world and it is very personal. Much more so than the examples you cited. I don't know about you but I live with an artist, hang with artists and am an artist...I know a little about them and I think your dismissing what I say as bullshit is, well, you tell me?

1) How do they respond to me?

When I said I think I hit a sore spot, I was referring to your response to Doreen about how you are sick and tired of people's reactions to your critiques on other web sites...that's all.

Btw, when did disagreement become so unfashionable?

Not with me, obviously.

Which wouldn't have irritated me further if it wasn't for the "so be it" at the end.

Again, I irritated you with something I considered benign and all I meant was that I respect Doreen's opinion (I do consider her a friend) and Mousey was totally into your critique. Nothing more.

I had hoped you would have taken what I wrote more to head then to heart

You stated several times that you were irritated by me or what I said. Is that from your head or heart? I must admit, I have found all of this explaining myself to you quite exhausting. I do need a break and I am tired. I will be back. I have been here since the beginning and enjoy throughly my participation and the people I have met here. I respect many of them but respect is not something I give lightly. I was friendly and welcoming to you when I responded to your critique of my poem but in as nice as way as I knew how, I pointed out that I didn't ask for the critique of my writing nor did I want it. Your slam of Arcadia's posting of the song from her country and her translation in that thread also didn't sit well with me.

I hope we can start anew sometime. I know there are those here that know and respect you and your knowledge. This whole thing has not been pleasant for me. I bid you adieu and will try again when I am not feeling so vunerable. My head is attached to my heart.

SooZen

*puts on knight's helmet*
Well I think we should build a giant wooden rabbit and all go to Camelot!

Seriously I agree with buddhabitch, it seems like there is a communication problem.
And I'm not very good at communicating ideas, so this is my two cents worth, most of the arguments all of you use are beliefs, or personal opinions, and nothing is more arguable than that. So if faced against someone's opinion why not just shrug and move on? They can believe what they want to believe, and in this very case it won't kill you.
Besides, once people start quoting each other in a debate, it usually never ends.

Camelot awaits
Locked on target
Ka-poof