Escalation of the war in Afghanistan

What in the world is going on?
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Barry
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Post by Barry » December 4th, 2009, 11:16 pm

btw, I basically agree with what both Doreen and Barry are saying, in most respects at least. If war, or any phenomenon for that matter, is simply taken as inevitable, it will indeed be inevitable. And yes, there will always be people out there who want to "fuck up your shit." What I'm less certain about is the link between people who want to "fuck up your shit" and perpetual large scale war. The potential need to take up arms in collective "self-defense" remains a real-world concern, but I also believe in human evolution, and the need to learn from past mistakes, and I'm far less certain about war as an effective agent of reform and spreading ideology. And the world is filled with injustice. Always has been. No human effort could right every wrong by means of military force alone. I suppose I'm not an absolute pacifist in the sense that I stop short of saying military force has absolutely no place at this point in human evolution, but we are definitely to a point where the unquestioned inevitability and glorification of war should diminish, and it should be more truly a last resort.
I agree with much of what you say, too, mnaz. The point I was arguing was twofold: the characterization of military service personell as "brainwashed" and "hired killers," and the notion that war can be wished away one person at a time.

The war in Afghanistan, like the war in Iraq, is not large-scale war. If it was, it would be over. I'm not even sure if there's a tank brigade in Afghanistan. Is there? Why not three, or five, or ten? Because it's not a large-scale war. It's a small police action of the type that surely will transpire even should humanity become unified politically at some point in the future, in which time there would be no need for corporate interests to foment war to build a pipeline. Unless some small pissant group of wannabe radicals were making trouble in the region through which the pipeline was to go.

As far as war for ideological reasons, I don't see the US as pushing ideology on the Afghani public. The Taliban, on the other hand...I'll bet there are a fair number of women in Afghanistan who would say they were, and who are glad they are now less able to do so. Make up your own mind.

War for political, economic or ideological reasons will hopefully become less and less prevalent as we evolve socially as a species. Military force, however, is an inevitable reality now and in the future. I would love to have seen the US military deployed during the Rwandan genocide, or into Darfur when that was at its peak. It seems to me to be a much more savory use of such might. As it is, I'm pleased to see the Taliban ousted from power in Afghanistan, it's a small redemption, and I stand behind any effort to keep them from getting back into that country or, God forbid, Pakistan.

Peace,
Barry

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stilltrucking
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Post by stilltrucking » December 5th, 2009, 5:45 am

I think it is sad when people leave you black and blue with their words and talk peace. Peace starts in your own heart. That is where war ends. In each individual human. If we want peace we must make peace in ourselves. I rest my case.

peace
barry

well hester I agree with you
about the war and patriarchal societies
I think it is a guy thing. We are all nostalgic for the good old days of warfare and warriors, Samurai's and Sioux braves and knights in armor on a field of honor. But when a guy is sitting in a trailer a thousand miles away from the battle with joystick directing a drone that kills twenty innocent civilians it is hard for me to think of him as a "warrior"

I would feel better about Obama if he had written a book called The Faith of My Mother.

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Post by mnaz » December 5th, 2009, 6:41 pm

I don't want to come across like I've figured out everything here. Hell I haven't figured out shit. Complex situations and interconnected relationships have been and will continue to be involved in Western dealings in the Middle East—particularly the Middle East, due to its vast energy resources and strategic location. No easy answers, really. At this point I’m trying to dig a little deeper regarding Afghanistan, more so than shout absolute opinions— though admittedly my “opinion” is one of disagreement (or at least doubt) with the “security” angle of our latest mission, and general disagreement with the way untruths and half-truths (apparently) must be broadcast via major Western media to get the public on board with each new, distant and poorly-understood operation. Maybe that angers me the most. I hate to be lied to on matters of collective security and life and death, especially if it can be traced to global corporate profit motives. Jeez. I’m no different than anyone else in that sense.

However… maybe I should play “devil’s advocate” with my own stance. It can always be argued that ends justify means. Is the Middle East better off without Saddam Hussein? Without the Taliban? Hell yes. At each point along this fight, seems we have two theaters of reality and objective—global corporate, and the people who must be convinced to buy into it. If the former convinces the latter, then it’s game time. It could be argued that setting up Western client states in Iraq and Afghanistan is, in the long run, the right thing to do, or “inevitable” in some sense. It could be argued that the sham “democracies” established so far, bought by the blood and courage of our young people in uniform, will naturally grow into the real thing, and freedom will begin to spread further (enforced on the near horizon by point of a gun). Who am I to stand against such a breakthrough? Here again, freedom is something I take for granted, but I’m not naïve, I understand my unique privilege. I understand freedom is a rare commodity. Things are happening fast now, and it could be that I’m simply standing in the way of progress. I understand this.

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Barry
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Post by Barry » December 5th, 2009, 8:08 pm

Jack wrote:I think it is sad when people leave you black and blue with their words and talk peace. Peace starts in your own heart. That is where war ends. In each individual human. If we want peace we must make peace in ourselves.
Jack I could not agree more, and I hope you were staring at your own reflection in the monitor as you typed that.

Peace,
Barry

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SadLuckDame
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Post by SadLuckDame » December 5th, 2009, 9:23 pm

Anyway, not to interrupt with my strange thoughts, but I'm by no means for peace or the greater peace. I'm too selfish for it. I'm for my peace and my children's peace and other children's peace. It stops there though.

In self-defense for myself or children I imagine every possible fighting scenario to severely harm or kill a person. I'm fine with men killing to protect women and children and I see no reason to have a united world peace, because with that we'd have to get people to advance even further by stopping other evils, such as harming children, molestation, rape, etc. If we were to stop war, we'd have to accomplish it after we cured all the other ills first.
My apologies.
`Do you know, I was so angry, Kitty,' Alice went on...`when I saw all the mischief you had been doing, I was very nearly opening the window, and putting you out into the snow! And you'd have deserved it, you
little mischievous darling!
~Lewis Carroll

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stilltrucking
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Post by stilltrucking » December 6th, 2009, 12:18 am

You can imagine all sorts of screnarios, we have plenty of "warriors" police, judges, politicians to look out for you and yours sad luck.

But too few Gandhi's and Martin Luther Kings. We keep killing them off.

Sure Barry
"here's looking at you kid."

Nazz well written well said.

Niezsche said we must speak of these things "with cynicism and innocence."
And Bismark said
"Believe nothing until you hear the first denial"
Maybe I have lower expectations than you.
I expect to be lied to.
Last edited by stilltrucking on December 6th, 2009, 1:21 am, edited 7 times in total.

mtmynd
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Post by mtmynd » December 6th, 2009, 12:22 am

SLD : "... I'm by no means for peace or the greater peace. I'm too selfish for it."

Do you really mean this?
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SadLuckDame
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Post by SadLuckDame » December 6th, 2009, 12:42 am

I just don't see it as a possibility. There's too much to heal firstly before it could even be considered. If someone were to threaten my child, my instincts would kick in and I'd possibly fight to the death. I mean that. I think peace and no wars would come after the healing of sex offenders, after the healing of child abuse, after the healing of rapes, those first would need to be a goner.
I'd be 'peaceful' without my concerns for my children's safety, but at the moment, it's not like that and therefore I'm not yet a peaceful person.
`Do you know, I was so angry, Kitty,' Alice went on...`when I saw all the mischief you had been doing, I was very nearly opening the window, and putting you out into the snow! And you'd have deserved it, you
little mischievous darling!
~Lewis Carroll

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stilltrucking
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Post by stilltrucking » December 6th, 2009, 10:04 am

I think Camus said it best for me mnaz

"By definition, a government has no conscience, sometimes it has a policy, but nothing more."
--Albert Camus
This from the NY Times editorial page this morning.

Obama’s Logic Is No Match for Afghanistan

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/06/opinion/06rich.html

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Doreen Peri
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Post by Doreen Peri » December 6th, 2009, 3:15 pm

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Arcadia
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Post by Arcadia » December 6th, 2009, 7:21 pm

I agree with the governor? vision about USA military bases around the globe. I couldn´t understand at all the rest.

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Post by mtmynd » December 7th, 2009, 10:52 am

SLD: "I'd be 'peaceful' without my concerns for my children's safety, but at the moment, it's not like that and therefore I'm not yet a peaceful person."

You do know that your children know this of you and consequently have a greater chance (depending upon their age) of not being peaceful people themselves?

"Teach your children well..."
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Post by SadLuckDame » December 7th, 2009, 1:50 pm

People make assumptions to get answers, to find info that may be challenging to get otherwise. I make many assumptions against my best advice. Human nature is amazing, predictable though still quite mysterious.

I've done my best to raise mine without stereotypical discrimination, but not without their guts, and internal voices. I do not want my daughter to always allow her father to step on her feelings. I'd like her to grow strong and tell him when he's abusing her trust or kindness. I do not want my son to grow allowing his children to be mishandled by significant others. I do not want my daughter to grow decorated with black eyes and bruised wrists. I do not want my son to be a punching bag for any Joe spiced up on whiskey. etc.

My apologies. The world, the people display so much peacefulness in their nature, in their conversations, and daily life, that I find it more my own thing to be generally rebellious.
`Do you know, I was so angry, Kitty,' Alice went on...`when I saw all the mischief you had been doing, I was very nearly opening the window, and putting you out into the snow! And you'd have deserved it, you
little mischievous darling!
~Lewis Carroll

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Doreen Peri
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Post by Doreen Peri » December 7th, 2009, 2:01 pm

Yes! I say YAY for THAT! Kids need to be raised to be self protective and strong and to not allow controlling or abusive behavior in their lives.

Obviously we have a long way to evolve still. Thanks for reminding us, SLD. :)

I get your point, entirely!

And it DOES make it hard to start with peace in our hearts and to hope for peace in the world. I still do think it's possible. Not in our lifetimes, that's for sure. But I think it's possible.

I also think it does a lot of good to TRY to start with peace in your heart and approach the world that way.

That said, when thinking about abuse I've experienced as well as thinking about ANY children... mine or yours or anybody else's... getting abused or used or attacked or hurt .... the peace flies out the window. I admit it. I get sooooo angry!

The world has a long way to go.

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Arcadia
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Post by Arcadia » December 7th, 2009, 7:54 pm

People make assumptions to get answers, to find info that may be challenging to get otherwise. I make many assumptions against my best advice. Human nature is amazing, predictable though still quite mysterious.

I've done my best to raise mine without stereotypical discrimination, but not without their guts, and internal voices. I do not want my daughter to always allow her father to step on her feelings. I'd like her to grow strong and tell him when he's abusing her trust or kindness. I do not want my son to grow allowing his children to be mishandled by significant others. I do not want my daughter to grow decorated with black eyes and bruised wrists. I do not want my son to be a punching bag for any Joe spiced up on whiskey. etc.

My apologies. The world, the people display so much peacefulness in their nature, in their conversations, and daily life, that I find it more my own thing to be generally rebellious.




l love the way you have said that SadLuckDame! :), muchas gracias!!!!

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