obama essentially = bush, mccain? (worse?)

What in the world is going on?
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stilltrucking
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Re: obama essentially = bush, mccain? (worse?)

Post by stilltrucking » September 5th, 2011, 12:22 pm

Sorry you can not read McGovern's letter to Obama unless you have a subscription to Harpers Magazine here are some snips from the dailykos

An Open Letter to President Obama
The president may be reluctant to follow the advice of a presidential candidate who in 1972 lost forty-nine states to Richard Nixon. I can appreciate that concern. On the other hand, shortly after the 1972 election, two bipartisan commissions--one by the House and one by the Senate--forced the incumbent who beat me to resign in disgrace....The late Sargent Shriver, my running mate in 1972, came to me the day after the election and said, "George, we may have lost the election, but we never lost our souls."

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Atehequa
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Re: obama essentially = bush, mccain? (worse?)

Post by Atehequa » September 12th, 2011, 7:55 pm

American leaders have been in the pockets of businessmen and corporative heads since 1776.

Now it seems they are on their dinner plates and in their stool as well.

Left versus right, democrat versus republican, conservative versus liberal.
Ill times for any such government/rulers if the population came together in objection.

Caesar once said “divide and conquer”

Dividing a people is a proven method for those who would conquer. Keeping them divided is a proven method used to keep the people’s minds off what the real problems are, therefore a method to keep them under control.

While the opposing sides of citizenry snarl and nip at each other out in the street, the thieves they call leaders are robbing them blind.

In my opinion, in the guise of either democrat or republican, the vast majority of these politicians, including presidents are mere actors or puppets, in the employment of someone/something else, instead of well serving the American people.

Bush, daddy and junior, Bill Clinton, and our current president have been made rich beyond any normal person’s dreams, doing the bidding for the corporate giants. These days I can see no reason for someone yearning to be president other than making a ton and stoking a tremendous ego before leaving office. As of late it seems they have done nothing to improve the lives of regular citizens.

Anymore it’s all about the oil.
Who has it.
How it can be attained.
How to hold on to it.

Why did America invade Iraq ?

Oh yes Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator who just happened to be on top of the second largest oil supply in the world.
Our then president, whom was said to be chosen by god, was also an oilman with a war profiteer as vice president.

Google Prescott Bush sometime

Why didn’t America lend aid at the same time when there was genocide taking place in Darfur ?

Did it have something to do with Saddam Hussein and the Ba’ath party running
Shell-Exxon-Mobile out of Iraq ? I really don’t see oil giant controlled America pulling all the troops/ petroleum security guards out of Iraq anytime soon or else until the well runs dry.

Why look at and pine over those who push themselves off as great communicators chosen by god, or the people’s hope for change ?

Fucking sales pitches.

Of course those behind a product are going to build it up and proclaim it as the best.

I tend to look at these political leaders as deceptive used car lot buzzards.

We the people must learn to start clearing the fog of deception and look after our own.

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stilltrucking
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Re: obama essentially = bush, mccain? (worse?)

Post by stilltrucking » September 13th, 2011, 1:03 am

Every hour, the sun radiates more energy onto the earth than the entire human population uses in one whole year. ....
I believe in Einstein's god, the god that tells me that we have everything we need. All we got to do is grow up as a species. Or maybe not.

I am seventy years old, waiting round to die so things look pretty bleak to me. But if I was young I would be on the sunny side of the street.

I don't know what to do bro, I was born to follow.
I can't hardly run my own life. damned if I can tell anyone else what to do.
I don't feel the same revulsion when I see Obama on TV that I do when I see Bush. The shrugs, the blank looks, the smirks, the fucking jerk. I would like to see him Pinocheted. Obama is twice the man Bush is, but he is in their the pocket too, you are right about that. If you lead the way I will follow. We should get together and do what? Vote for Bernie Sanders?

My appoliges to mnaz for another ramble

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbHBLh1uImQ
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Atehequa
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Re: obama essentially = bush, mccain? (worse?)

Post by Atehequa » September 13th, 2011, 6:35 am

We're all waiting around to die, that's one aspect of life they can't cheat you out of no matter what side of the street, sunny part of the day, shaded during the other and dark as death on a cloudy night.

I neither lead or follow, but only live my life within the confines of imperialism and the diminishing lights of these 50 fires.

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Re: obama essentially = bush, mccain? (worse?)

Post by mnaz » September 13th, 2011, 3:30 pm

many still argue that corporatism / "privatization" is the best way forward, the best answer for the u.s., and the world. but i think many of these folks fail to take into account,

1) corporate welfare can be pushed too far, to the point of dangerous levels of national red ink. how's the u.s. credit rating lately?
2) it's questionable if a system based so heavily on consumerism and both public and private debt (and steadily transferring wealth upward to the tippity top 1% or so) is ultimately sustainable. does the system perhaps start to "collapse from the bottom" at some point?
3) we should be more cognizant of the more benign or potentially beneficial corporatism versus harmful corporatism. massive no-bid (and non-accountable) contracts to "defense" contractors, endless oil wars, massive government oil subsidies, unregulated energy futures trading and manipulation and quarter after quarter of record or near record profits for exxon-mobile is harmful corporatism. reducing or eliminating oil subsidies and increasing renewable energy subsidies might be an example of beneficial corporatism. we need to make these distinctions.
4) the public sector social safety net and regulatory functions came into existence for very specific and valid reasons . . . basically, pure, unregulated capitalism, by itself, failed us, and some balance and oversight was necessary and appropriate, and i believe it shall always remain so.
Last edited by mnaz on September 14th, 2011, 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: obama essentially = bush, mccain? (worse?)

Post by mtmynd » September 13th, 2011, 7:03 pm

"... our current president have been made rich beyond any normal person’s dreams..."

The net worth of Obama is $5M according to this article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/2 ... tml?page=2

... and that is from mostly the sales of his books. I'd dream of those figures... wouldn't hurt in today's economy to have a few bills in reserve, would it?
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Atehequa
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Re: obama essentially = bush, mccain? (worse?)

Post by Atehequa » September 13th, 2011, 7:21 pm

Yeah I'm sure they all are going to be honest and up front about what they're hoarding away.

Hey, but it's alright. I completely understand when the chips are way down and times seem bleak, especially after 8 years of Lord Dubya and Darth Cheney along with a hell of a recession going on now, It was wrong for me to speak ill of what some see as a saviour.

Just wait, I'm sure he's going to make everything better

Didn't mean to trounce anyone's great hope of change and salvation, be it true or false so I'll just not speak of such here anymore.

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Re: obama essentially = bush, mccain? (worse?)

Post by mtmynd » September 13th, 2011, 8:06 pm

"Just wait, I'm sure he's going to make everything better."

With his Congress totally against anything Obama would like to see passed, the chances of anything becoming better are slim.

The next Presidential/Congressional election will be a defining moment for our country - will we join the 21st Century or stubbornly remain in the 20th Century, rocking in our worn-out rockers reliving the grand old days of yesteryear while the future continues rolling forward without mercy..?

It's not any President that can make everything better but each and everyone of us casting the best votes we know to put in charge people who will work for the benefit of all the people of this country and not simply the corporate elite who have their fangs deep in the throats of our Congressional leadership.
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Atehequa
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Re: obama essentially = bush, mccain? (worse?)

Post by Atehequa » September 13th, 2011, 8:54 pm

I suppose there are those who are not experiencing these times in the same ways as others. Kind words come easy from those who have full stomachs, warm homes and livelihoods intact,

at the present.

No matter what is said and what is promised by those who have enough to speak of such so kindly,

remember there are those who are feeling these times in a different way and the fog of deception is burning away by a new morning sun.

Then there are those who have felt such times since 1776 and have heard many promises from just as many kindly speakers.

Ever think it would be beneath them to believe in anymore promises and solutions from these people ?

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Re: obama essentially = bush, mccain? (worse?)

Post by mnaz » September 13th, 2011, 9:08 pm

mtmynd wrote:With his Congress totally against anything Obama would like to see passed, the chances of anything becoming better are slim.
true enough for now, cec. but refer to that list of key progressive points he has failed to deliver on, or to even act on, at the beginning of this thread-- even when he had a democratic congress. this seems to lend support to the "puppet," or "in the pockets of business" perception-- not only obama, but the (supposedly progressive) democratic party overall-- another side of the same corporate-owned government, only "not quite as bad."
... each and everyone of us casting the best votes we know to put in charge people who will work for the benefit of all the people of this country and not simply the corporate elite who have their fangs deep in the throats of our Congressional leadership.
indeed. and are such people actually on the ballot? i mean, ones who actually have any shot at winning?

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Re: obama essentially = bush, mccain? (worse?)

Post by Atehequa » September 13th, 2011, 9:43 pm

Why do the people have to ever depend upon that next election to keep them in a good life ? A president who is basically powerless because others are against him. People suffer while waiting for that next magic election that is suppose to make everything better, that is if a certain side wins.

Two opposing sides of the same country out to win.

What then, A term in office until the next election ?

I was thinking of some other presidents, Nixon, Ford and good old Jimmy Carter.
How they sought to deal with the populations of Indians and other brown people here in America.

http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/articles/ ... icans.html

Wouldn't you think it is beneath some of us to have good feelings about and faith in this system ?

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Re: obama essentially = bush, mccain? (worse?)

Post by mtmynd » September 14th, 2011, 1:02 am

"... remember there are those who are feeling these times in a different way and the fog of deception is burning away by a new morning sun."

I understand, my friend, but never forget happiness is a gift to those who accept it with an open heart, not those who feel happiness is a commodity on the shelves of Walmart... sometimes affordable and other times just another dream out of reach of those whose reach keeps them from attaining it. To rely on our happiness thru the cunning minds of Congress will forever be short of it.

______________

"this seems to lend support to the "puppet," or "in the pockets of business" perception-- not only obama, but the (supposedly progressive) democratic party overall-- another side of the same corporate-owned government, only "not quite as bad."

It takes a smart man to dodge the salvos of lies and deception without giving up his values. But it also takes a smart man to know that money is what runs the Republic. Should Obama fail at his Presidency, it is only himself to blame. Honesty may not interest the thieves, but will always give a man a good night's sleep, ready to embrace the new day as a challenge from life... something Obama from this side of the fence seems to being doing.
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Re: obama essentially = bush, mccain? (worse?)

Post by mnaz » September 14th, 2011, 1:34 pm

mtmynd wrote:... happiness is a gift to those who accept it with an open heart, not those who feel happiness is a commodity on the shelves of Walmart... sometimes affordable and other times just another dream out of reach of those whose reach keeps them from attaining it. To rely on our happiness thru the cunning minds of Congress will forever be short of it.
well... exactly. that's why the d.c. corporate whore-out needs to be called out. by everyone. obama supporter or otherwise. especially when it contributes to rising poverty. i see atehequa's point. just wait until the next election and then we'll see something. well, what if the next election never comes? or at least never gets on with what needs to be done?
It takes a smart man to dodge the salvos of lies and deception without giving up his values. But it also takes a smart man to know that money is what runs the Republic. Should Obama fail at his Presidency, it is only himself to blame. Honesty may not interest the thieves, but will always give a man a good night's sleep, ready to embrace the new day as a challenge from life... something Obama from this side of the fence seems to being doing.
it's an incredibly difficult job, and the level of corrupt influence is a big part of that. but i still think you give him too much credit. i hesitate to attribute honesty to a man who has basically broken a lot of promises to this point.

from the thread's beginning, here's the (partial) "list":
Obama failed to end the Bush-era tax cuts for the wealthy, failed to create a government-run health insurance system, and failed in his negotiations with Congress on raising the debt-ceiling to shelter Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. And in a yet-to-be approved deal to avoid default of the US government’s debt, Obama agreed to automatic cuts in social programs and defense spending if a bipartisan panel fails to agree on a deficit-reduction package, or its recommendations are rejected by Congress. Conspicuously missing are tax increases on the wealthy as one of the automatic triggers. The ultra-wealthy will continue to avoid paying their share of taxes, loaning their spare cash, instead, to Washington, to be repaid in full with interest — an attractive deal for the rich, a swindle for everyone else. The upward redistribution of wealth continues as strongly as it ever did under Bush, the only difference being that Bush admitted the ultra-wealthy were his “base,” while Obama doesn’t.

On foreign policy, Obama’s record is no better. He has failed to close Guantanamo Bay, stepped up the war in Afghanistan, extended the war to Yemen, and wages war in Libya without Congressional authorization — which is only slightly worse than the fact that he’s waging war on Libya. All this means that for liberal Democrats, Obama is a clear disappointment. But that sure doesn’t mean they won’t vote for him. And Obama knows it. Liberal Democrats, progressives and even Communists are so terrified of the Republican Party right-wing, that they’ll vote for anyone to the left of it, even if “to the left”, means a long way toward right.
not all of these things are "deal-breakers" for me, but a few are. i never really expected any serious health care reform; we'll never get over that mountain at this point.

but i did expect reasonable and badly needed adjustments to the federal tax structure to end the all-out looting of the bush era and stave off dangerous levels of national red ink. and i did expect him to more strongly shelter social security and medicare, etc. and i did expect him to be more proactive in phasing out guantanamo. from the (partial) list, that would be my (partial) list of sticking points.

i can't say much about the afghanistan escalation-- technically it was part of his campaign. yet endless preemptive "war on terror" (in fossil fuel-rich countries and corridors) is a deal-breaker for me as well. unacceptable. and though he passed some fine regulatory legislation to reel in the abuses of the financial industry, there has been zero follow-through, and whatever increased oversight was passed will likely be staffed by wall street insiders and apologists, as obama makes the necessary deals to get re-elected. but . . . as i almost always ask in these discussions, is it the man, or the system? . . .

and . . . as always, i realize it is much easier to complain and criticize than offer concrete solutions (or to imagine how badly i might get my ass kicked if i tried to do obama's job). and . . . like soo always says, look more inward and do more to affect change in a more local sense. i get that concept too . . .

unlike many of my "lefty" brethren, i haven't given up on the man completely, mainly because the thought of another one of these bible-thumping republican nutballs in the oval office gives me the shudders. what "choice" is there? concern over upcoming supreme court appointments alone might be enough to roust me out of the doldrums and get me to the polls next year to vote "d." but that attitude is seriously teetering on the edge...

interesting discussion.

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Re: obama essentially = bush, mccain? (worse?)

Post by mtmynd » September 14th, 2011, 6:17 pm

"... unlike many of my "lefty" brethren, i haven't given up on the man completely, mainly because the thought of another one of these bible-thumping republican nutballs in the oval office gives me the shudders. what "choice" is there?"

I agree and hence my little attempt at some positivism tossed freely in Obama's direction. I'd much rather see 4 more years of his smiling face than the plastic grins I've seen painted on the likes of Romney and Perry, either of whom we may see running the country in 2013... providing there are not some drastic changes in public opinion. But what can the citizenry do when money is scarce? There is little choice but to look to it's government.
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Re: obama essentially = bush, mccain? (worse?)

Post by stilltrucking » September 16th, 2011, 2:05 am

"... unlike many of my "lefty" brethren, i haven't given up on the man completely, mainly because the thought of another one of these bible-thumping republican nutballs in the oval office gives me the shudders. what "choice" is there?"
Oh no I have not given up on Obama either.
What I have given up on is the American Dream. I no longer wish to pursue happiness.


I do not wish to be happy at present, just to be aware...

I only know of one duty and that is to love. I say no to all the rest. I say no with all my strength...

Should I go on this way, I would certainly end up by dying happy...

Quotes taken from this article.

PHENOMENOLOGY
OF LIFE
FROM THE ANIMAL SOUL
TO THE HUMAN MIND
BOOK II
The Human Soul in the Creative
Transformation of the Mind


http://www.springerlink.com/content/978 ... =2&locus=0

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