THE PENTAGON TELLS THE TRUTH ?? HOW SHOCKING!

[stilltrucking]

Knip pardon my rudeness, I shoud have addressed you directly.

Ok
I wonder if Canadians are too nice sometimes, too courteous, I mean I don't want you to be like us barbarians down south but sometimes I think you try too hard to be tolerant. As for this quote function that doreen has put here, I like it a lot. Makes it easier for people to throw your words back at you like a big custard pie. It you went back to litkicks you could find many of my posts that are
Duesies, stuff that would make me winch, you are wrong Knip, that war was too late, it was justified ten years ago when we caught him red handed and had UN support, this time if was totaly unfucking justified, now if you want to play Clausewitz or Napolean military mind games that is good, we will always need warriors I am afraid but you are wrong about that war.

Go ahead and defend it to me, I love to hear great military minds at work, maybe this is a little sarcastic but not much.

personaly I think you should just admit that you are wrong, and stop playing cowboy with your opinions, if you would like I will find a hundred posts of mine on litkicks that I would be embarrassed to admit too, and would be happy to change my mind about.

[knip]

naww...for what it's worth, i've flopped back and forth on support for the war, too...at the time, when i was over there, i was pissed because i wanted the inspectors be given more time...plus i had to explain to my sailors why the attack was justified when i wasn't sure i supported it myself

but if 1991 was the time to do it, what has changed in those years that it wasn't time in 2003?

i will reiterate that, at the time, pretty much everybody thought iraq had wmd...everybody's intel pointed towards the same thing, including some european nations who didn't back the attack for purely national policy reasons and strategic desires to position themselves as power brokers in an emerging european community

but even if the intel didn't point to that, i think they still would have attacked eventually...the stakes were just too high...sure they could have focused on afghanistan but what that was doing was sending al qaeda into baluchistan, iran, and iraq...those al qaeda who showed up in africa got there through the old trade routes that run right through there

what is going on now in iraq is horrible, and bush & co. must shoulder the blame for not having a fully-developed plan...when they took baghdad, the military said to the State Dept "ok State Dept - your turn...time to rebuild"...the State Dept said "huh? we don't know how to do that"...the responsibility was placed on the military, and they were at a loss...it was criminal how they hung them out to dry, and the troops are paying for the lack of forethought

and no, i don't how it's going to end...and i think it's going to get worse before it gets better...and it might not get better for a long time...i'm no believer in huntington's clash of civilizations theories...but there seems to be no doubt that terrorists are being created, or insurgents, or whatever one wants to call them...but the alternative was unacceptable, as far as i'm concerned


the last little bit...i believe the wmd did, and still do exist

[mtmynd]

Knip -

i believe the wmd did, and still do exist

What is your opinion on why Saddam would not use these WMD's as a defense against the invasion? It wasn't a surprise attack by any means...

[knip]

i'm not convinced he was ready to...had not yet developed the means...wmd can be ten barrels full of payload, carted away in the back of a covered truck to be used at some later date when the delivery means becomes available...or it can be half of the equation, a chemical of some type which when mixed with another as-yet-unprocured chemical, becomes volatile

i'm not saying i know they exist...i'm merely saying that just because you cannot find something doesn't mean it never existed

[mtmynd]

thx for the quick reply, knip. I must agree that the existence of WMD's may never be fully known... only if Saddam talks about it or some of his Lieutenants... but whatever the situation if, it may be years before the truth is known about it. Until then the war may be still ongoing, depleting the U.S. economy, not to mention American "face "... an extremely expensive lesson that was not learned from Nam...

Let us say that down the line, 2-4 yrs from now, someone stumbles upon the hidden WMD's.... BushCo will gloa, but , I say, "So what?" More damage may have been done by then that what the WMD's could have done, seeing their was no delivery system for using them, other than hand carrying the damn things across borders into this (or any other ) country... as presupposition at best.

As far as bringing Democracy to Iraq - after killing over 100,000 Iraqis, leveling their major cities, leaving both physically and mentally wounded people in pain and suffering.... all this to a people that majorally do not understand the word 'democracy".... well, I think you know where I'm going with this, eh?

America's collective ego will continue pursuing this war until we vote in somebody that can turn the tide ... hopefully before any truly dangerous counteraction further wounds that same collective ego. Wars last as long as the 'will of sides' remains strong, and the will of the middle eastern people has been historically very strong, whereas America's will has become exhausted if it interferes with our own progress thru freedom which is based upon capital and competition... we grow weary of 'non-change', if you will.

[stilltrucking]

but if 1991 was the time to do it, what has changed in those years that it wasn't time in 2003?

Well for one thing in 91 there was what three hundred and fifty thousand troops and a true coalition of UN nations, and he had just invaded another country.

That bit where our dear leader was joking around and looked under the carpet for WMD's is telling I think. Frat boy humor.

From what I have picked up from NPR which where I get most of my news (and BBC) Sadam was more interested in writing novels then in war.

In all of this I hope I am wrong and that it was a good move to invade Iraq, maybe it has prevented another 9/11 why should they attack us, they are bleeding us dry,.

The intelligence that I have heard about that was ignored by our dear leader was that there was no WMD's. The fact that the war has become a mission to bring the blessings of democracy to Iraq is indicative of something. A lot of CIA whistle blowers have pointed out that there was no real evidence of WMD's. show one reliable bit of intelligence that says there was WMD's. What I have heard is that a intelligence was "gamed" by the ex patriot Iraqi's.

Where are those reliable reports. Name one.
Please.

[knip]

although i agree that some likely acted a bit too aggressively analyzing intel data at the time (and i said 'might'), the bigger problem is that the administration seems to understand little of the sunni-shi'ite interactions and seem to be completely unaware the fractions within the shia themselves...they also completely misread how democracy would be accepted...notwithstanding how horribly wrong it went, had they not attacked it would have been only a matter of time before they did...i think we're in this game for a long, long time...long after you and i are dead and gone, and perhaps long after our children are gone...not necessarily in iraq...personally, i think they have to carve iraq up like they did yugoslavia, give the south to the shia, the centre to the sunni, and the north to the kurds, but they'll have to put pressure on turkey to allow that to happen...saudi arabia won't like that, because the shia belt will then run all the way from iran to their borders, and then watch the terrorism fly as saudi arabia pumps more bucks and support into al qaeda...then there is the issue of iran and the nuclear question...throw pakistan into the mix and some other emerging hot spots...mushareef may not be able to hang onto pakistan...then there goes kashmir...there is NO arab solution to any of this because of the sunni-shi'ite split...i guess what i'm saying is i see two choices - stay away and cross your fingers and hope for the best, or take action of some sort to try to slow the tide...i guess there is a third action, which is the same as number two but with international (read UN) support...but frankly, i can't see waiting on the UN when countries holding vetoes are voting based on factors that have nothing to do with what they are voting on...

i'm not a warmongerer, really i'm not...i think the future is going to be a lot more nasty than people realize, and sincerely believe that what is going on now is slowing it down...i know many around here will scoff at that, and i agree i might be wrong...but i might be right, too...

[stilltrucking]

I need a printer,
I loaned mine to a friend.
My eyes are shot,
I got to print this out

to interesting for fast read and reply

my first reaction is a thought about a board game was it called Risk?

thanks for getting back to me
be back soon

[jimboloco]

wu wei
not a cliche
get out and let them alone

[stilltrucking]

what we have is very dangerous incompetent leader, as the saying goes he could screw up a wet dream, I don't mean he is stupid, he actually has a higher IQ then Kerry, it is that mighty smighty god that makes him dangerous, he really does believe god is on his side, he is fighting a holy war, that word evil that just rolls off his lips too easy. The shit is in the fan, I don't know why you think Iraq would have attacked us, from what is coming out about Sadam he was more interested in being a paper back writer, but it is no sense debating whether the war was justified. What I see the United States now is a third rate economic power with a huge military. We could go out in a blaze of glory, the EU And China are going to eat our lunch. My god look at rum dum, he still has his job, the Washington Post in August of 2001 was speculating that he would be leaving soon because he was screwing up. They said he was being called rip van rumsfeld inside the beltway.
These guys are bad knip, as for Iraq splitting it up there was no Iraq until after ww1. Those great white fathers sat around and redrew the map, pick a place where there is trouble any place you can probably trace it back to world war one. In fact I don't believe there was two world wars, just one with an intermission to raise another generation of cannon fodder. Man I just don't want to study war no more, that is your job. like I said this reminds me of playing one of those geo political board games.
a long long time like the hundred years war that was an oldie but goodie too. I would be very happy to be wrong about this. Took me a long time to turn against the war in viet nam, all those john wayne movies, how could my country be wrong. Knip we have made it worse, time was on our side, not against us. You keep repeating that lie, "eventualy he would have attacked us" I am not calling you a liar, it is not your lie it is our dear leader. If Goebbels. and hitler proved anything it is if you keep repeating a lie and eventualy it will be accepted, and that was before TV

I think jimboloco is right, sooner or later we are going to haul ass, unless some jihadist in dc thinks it might be time to use nukes, then you can give my love to rose.

[knip]

the thing about this website is that one cannot read the responses when one type the reply....

but i will say our positions are not very different, but the results are.....

at thye risk of saying sometining else while drunk.........................................................peace be to youy....peacefule trucking, and safety in phar lepht to my friends


i celebrate christams.....so merry merry........i'll be back in 12

[knip]

AND


what i wanted to say didn't really show up







except i am off

to spend xmas with my family










and i have love....................much


c u

[jimboloco]

well it is unfortunate that we still believe that we have got to control and manipulate, no matter how well intentioned our plans may be. http://www.pantagraph.com/stories/1212 ... 004.shtml
The presence of Amerika in Irak is the single most destabilising force field factor. War destroyed order. Mass defections would not allow elections.Pupett leaders pull our strings.
Let us split.
Let them split.
Warm toasty sentiment all around.
What's wrong with it?
When Kofi Annan
)ya gotta love the name, man(
sais he don't like the contradictions
in Ameriks'a plan
the4y set him back with charges of personal corruption

maybe billy bob will be the next secretary general
merry xmass

[mnaz]

This war was lost a long time ago.

[stilltrucking]

YES

The day they looted the museums was the day I knew it was out of control. I can't tell you how sad that made me. I know the human suffering is what matters but....