What am I missing here?

[stilltrucking]

see you later jimbo

[whimsicaldeb]

Somehow Hester is a
failure as a human being
Deb has a wonderful husband and child
and hester is just a miserable excuse for a humn being
weird for someone who quotes the dalai lama the way deb does to say something like that.

Jack.

I NEVER called Hester a failure or a miserable excuse for a human being - I've never even thought that! Those are YOUR words, YOUR thoughts, not mine!

Stop putting words in my mouth, stop telling lies about me. Stop twisting things to look as if I'm doing this.

Stop it, all, now!

I don't spend a lot of time talking with you Jack, because this is what you do to me every time. You take what I say and twist it. I can't say it any better than this; but is you want to continue on believing it you can continue to do this with me and also have a good relationship with me - then DREAM ON. Because that's all it will be; a dream - not reality.

Hester wrote that I was jealous of her and her friends and life ... that I was "projecting" ... and a whole bunch of other bullshit; just as you have; and it's all "poor me victim" bullshit and I told her I wasn't and why. I proved that what she was saying and believing about me wasn't true and if it stung, well then it should have shouldn't it, because it wasn't true. It was all a lie. And why should I allow her to continue on telling lies about me.

... Your snide remarks, hester's; your attitude(s); are disrespectful to me and my life. So stop it. Now.

...

My life IS Good! Why should I apologize, or hide that fact, just because yours, or hers, or anyone else's isn't; and because of that; feelings may be hurt. (answer: I shouldn't have to).

My life is good life because I've WORKED for it! I've earned it! No one's handed me this life... I worked to build it, and I still work on it, daily - moment by moment.

I ask people to look at how they've created what they have in their life because I've looked (still look) within and ask the hard questions of myself; why is this happening to me, how did I bring this one to me, what am I to learn from this ... and listened to the answers; instead of whining about it with/too others. I know it works because it's worked in my life. I know how much work it takes because I know how much work I've had to put out in my own life.

I also know worth it, it is, to do this work. It's taken me a long time, it's been a long hard climb to be in this place and I'm happy, grateful as well as proud of both my inner as well as outer ... it's because it hasn't been easy, that I know how valuable it all is.

I've earned this good place, I know what I'm talking about because I've been there, same place as her; as you. I know what the hell I'm talking about. I know how to be a poor me victim, and I also know how NOT to be. That's why I can see it for what it is, and why she, and you, should listen to what I have to say; instead of poking at me. Twisting what I say .. and telling lies about me. Disrespecting me, and my views, and life.

This good life I have is available to anyone willing to work for it ... anyone! And you get to this place (each day) by stopping blaming: me, others, life, and bush, your parents, and everything else in your life for your failures - and replacing it with asking yourself "how did I get this way? What did I do to create this, and what do I need to learn from this?"

Then you grab your tissue box (because it's going to hurt), sit down quietly someplace, open your ears and eyes and heart: and listen; beyond that loud voice and mindset that wants to keep you forever in that blame game; to that strong constant quiet little voice of truth & reason & love underneath and within - and you beginning following and doing what it says - instead of that louder, insistent hurt little inner childish ego voice that's been running the show for so long (and poorly) in your life.

If you want the type of life I have ... you have to earn it; and earn it for yourself. No one is going to give/hand it to you - you have to do the work and then hand it to yourself.

So stop whining and get busy.
Get there, already.

[whimsicaldeb]

Somehow Hester is a
failure as a human being
Deb has a wonderful husband and child
and hester is just a miserable excuse for a humn being
weird for someone who quotes the dalai lama the way deb does to say something like that.

Jack.

I NEVER called Hester a failure or a miserable excuse for a human being - I've never even thought that! Those are YOUR words, YOUR thoughts, not mine!

Stop putting words in my mouth, stop telling lies about me. Stop twisting things to look as if I'm doing this.

Stop it, all, now!

I don't spend a lot of time talking with you Jack, because this is what you do to me every time. You take what I say and twist it. I can't say it any better than this; but is you want to continue on believing it you can continue to do this with me and also have a good relationship with me - then DREAM ON. Because that's all it will be; a dream - not reality.

I want to add: In case you're unaware; what you're doing Jack is a form of abuse. When I tell you I don't like what you're doing and ask you to stop - but you continue to do it anyway. That's abuse.

You bait people with the way you write, and make them have to defend themselves against your attack. This is flaming someone, and flaming someone is a form of abuse. You do this to me; and hester did this to me in this thread as well.

Doreen has said the same thing to you as well here:

Me to doreen, you said you were going to stay out of and then you jumped in like big mamma and pretty much took her side

Water under the bride, don't mean nothing

Bullshit!

BULLSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT!

OK.. now I'm FUCKING MAD ok?

I did NOT "jump in like big mamma" and I did NOT "pretty much take her side."

Fuck this nonsense!

I came here to suggest you two STOP it by YOU stopping replying to her threads because she doesn't like what you post AND because she is accusing you of doing something ILLEGAL for crissake!

Stalking and harassment are illegal. Can't you tell when someone's trying to be your friend?

I took NOBODY's side and now I am very very angry.

This is NOT how I want to spend my time.

If this kinda shit continues, I'm not going to be part of it, OK?

I'll just shut the door to everybody and the entire community can find another place to go.

The internet is a HUGE place.

If people don't like it here, they can go somewhere else.

Sometimes I hate the fucking internet.

...

Source:
http://studioeight.tv/phpbb/viewtopic.p ... c&start=30

Stop it ST - Jack. Stop it ALL - NOW!

Stop baiting people by saying things that aren't true.
Stop posting at others until they have not more patience left and so the only thing left to do is blow up at you.

It's hurtful, it's disrespectful, it's distracting, it makes people angry; it's ugly, foul and abusive,. It's driving me crazy, it's driving others crazy ... so

STOP IT - ALL! NOW!

...
editing to include this last addition:

These types of disruptive tactics are also called "Needling" and "Needling Ad Hominem (Argument To The Man)" as exampled in: A List Of Fallacious Arguments

[bohonato]

Bohonato suggested that Chappelle's race-based, n-word-laced comedy was somehow exempt from this type of scrutiny due to its more clever and "subtle" execution and style... that's why I mentioned it. Perhaps he's right. Perhaps Chappelle's comedy highlights the lunacy of racism by lampooning its trappings... but that might be a stretch. I admit that I've laughed at both Chappelle and Mencia at times, and I think they both wrap effective social commentary in their satire at times, but they both push the envelope far beyond previous limits. Stern, Leykis, and Imus are probably more shock oriented for the sake of shock itself over honest attempts at satire. I don't know. I guess the point here is that there is at least some degree of subjective judgment in all this. One person may despise Imus while tolerating Chappelle and someone else may see it quite differently. So where exactly should the line be drawn, and who should decide it?

What I was getting at was that Chappelle is social satire, and Mencia as well. They don't use nigger and wetback to describe people, they do it to mock the society that does. And you're right, there a line and it is subjective. Just because something is extreme, shocking, offensive, or new doesn't make it bad. And I am the last person to ever advocate censorship, nor did I say that Chappelle was exempt from scrutiny.

What I view to be the problem with Imus' comment was, even though he claims it was humor, it exposes the underlining male-dominated and Eurocentric values in our society (like Jimboloco already stated). The problem isn't the words. Its the meaning behind them, which changes with context, the subject, and the person saying them. Totally subjective. I hate to fall on the 'I know it when I see/hear it' cop out, but then again, there's a good reason why I'm not going into public policy.

Most of American pop culture is shit anyway.

[mnaz]

Most of American pop culture is shit anyway.

No argument here.

I understand the craft and skill of Chappelle's & Mencia's social satire, as compared with, say, the sophomoric leering of Stern, et al. Still though, Chappelle and Mencia use established racist and/or demeaning vocabularies as tools of their trade, thereby perpetuating their usage attached to specific groups of people. But I agree that the main intent (and byproduct) of this practice is to mock a society that uses these words more seriously, and I also think it is a declaration of independence of sorts from the tyranny of these words via intentional, self-assured self-mocking. One could argue that in this way both Chappelle and Mencia refuse to allow themselves (and their race) to be "victimized" by these words. In effect, they mock the idea... (Or something along that line).

It's ironic that I find myself "defending" Imus here in this thread (though I did not excuse him). I never actually listened to Imus' show, but if it's anything like typical dumbass shock jock radio, well... I don't care much for that nonsense. Really, I wish those shows would just go away. What am I doing about it? Well, I don't picket the networks and such, but I do religiously ignore those shows. And I opine as to how much they suck when it comes up in conversation (within reason). If everyone did this, those shows would actually go away. But in the land of the free, I suppose even gainfully-employed gutterball shock jocks/humorists have some right to free speech within the bounds of their shock contracts, theoretically protected from a network ax summarily and/or inconsistently applied, which to me seems quite a slippery slope to head down.

Then again, some may argue that the sudden ferocious supernova of outrage over Imus' callous mis-speak was in fact the free market rejecting this particular shock/shlock radio product, and it's "only the beginning" ... a benchmark moment, or sudden "tipping point"... Hell, I don't know. Go figure...

It's been an interesting talk here, to say the least. Jeez.

[hester_prynne]

"What is this Imus thing? Why is Sharpton so mad? He seems, like really overly mad. They all seem to be.
I don't know who this Imus guy is but I know what he said and I find it hard to believe he would say that with malice on the air. I mean, he was complementing them I thought, in a sort of modern way?
I dunno. I've been called a fat white honky bitch, in a strange sort of endearing way, not a way that I would condone but I knew that the person uttering it was not saying it with malice, more with reckless, loving, edgy familiarity.
It was a stupid thing to say yes, but the reaction seems so overheated.
Am I missing something? Is this Imus guy horrible? Enlighten Hester, the gray haired ho bag!"


When I wrote this I was just asking a question. True, it was a question about someone, I knew nothing about. It was lightly asked, it absolutely meant no offense.
Still answered it with a rather "no big deal" sort of tone, and Cec and Sooz said things about him, having listened to him themselves that seemed positive.
Then Deb comes along and blam. A vicious, righteous attitude.
I have been in reaction to Deb since then. Because what she did, was much like what Imus has been doing for years on his show. Putting me down for no reason. Speaking in a know-it-all attitude that I find very offensive and juvenile. Inexperienced.
Now, Jimbo, if you think that is nothing to be concerned about, then you are not as sensitive as I thought you were.
I've been called a fool in this thread, a poor me victim in this thread, and so on. I guess that's okay with you all, but it is not okay for me. You may as well call me a nappy headed ho. I don't believe anyone should treat a fellow human being that way ever.
Yeah, let's get real here okay. Can you handle it? Can you look at yourselves and let go of making your damn points?

For the record, I am a gutsy strong woman, happily raising my daughter alone and working. I don't have alot of time to listen to radio talk shows. (I loathe Howard Stern by the way I think he's a pig, always have, and believe me, I've been hammered for that too.)
Furthermore, I don't have the luxury of pontificating about the complexities of edgy verbiage issues on the media fore. It doesn't really interest me that much. I was curious as to why this Imus guy was in so much trouble. He was all over the news and I assumed the media once again was making a "mountain out of a molehill".

Like most people, I just want to be loved and heard. I try to give that to others as well because I know how much we all want that.
A fool? A poor me victim? Me? I think not.
I think the insensitivity here on this thread has been outrageous.
That does not make me a "poor me victim". It makes whoever accuses me of that, an ass.

One thing I am still curious about is the "knowing grins" deb mentioned in one of her lectures to me. I want that explained. Why did you blow me off on that one deb? What is it about Texans that you meant? Or white haired males in their 60's? What's to "know" about them?

Other than that, I am through with this conversation.
And I will speak with much more reserve in the future.
And I will be keeping a wide berth from Jimboloco, and Deb at all times.
You both strike me as hurtfully arrogant, yet I don't think you are anywhere near being able to see that about yourselves. I hope you can someday. I really do.
H

[stilltrucking]

I sure feel like a got dam victim
you all nothing but a bunch of white liberals

Sorry for butting in between you and WD Hester

It was purely a personal problem of mine
Nothing to do with you.
my own negativity

It was the nappy hair crack that got me
Some people have to struggle with bad hair days
something to write about I suppose
like that song
oSeventeen
and colored girls that have considered suicide.



while this thread was going along
I been thinking about one particular writer here andwhat she would think about all this. She had a thread about bad hair days a few months back



I did not realize how much I was still agravated with WD, she is my favorite enemy here. "I would rather have an intelligent enemy than a stupid friend" Frida the movie.


speaking of hair
There is a lovely picture of you sitting at a piano, the light is shinning on your hair. You have beautiful hair hester, very wavy it looked.


done

[whimsicaldeb]

Most of American pop culture is shit anyway.

No argument here.

<>

It's been an interesting talk here, to say the least. Jeez.

No argument from me either, and yes it has been interesting for myself as well. Thank you, all.

One thing I am still curious about is the "knowing grins" deb mentioned in one of her lectures to me. I want that explained. Why did you blow me off on that one deb? What is it about Texans that you meant? Or white haired males in their 60's? What's to "know" about them?

You post long, detailed posts about how I reply with "a vicious, righteous attitude" and that I'm insensitive to you. Why then do you continue to ask me to explain things to you? Ask your friends to explain it to you hester, not me.

Do what you said you're going to do ...

Other than that, I am through with this conversation.
And I will speak with much more reserve in the future.
And I will be keeping a wide berth from Jimboloco, and Deb at all times.

[Doreen Peri]

I am hester's friend. I am also your friend, Deb.

I, too, did not understand the "knowing grins" comment.

I don't blame hest for asking you what you meant by it. If you said that about me, I'd ask, too.

As hester's friend, if she asked me what you meant by it, I would have to answer, "I don't have a clue. It makes no sense to me. I don't understand it myself."

[whimsicaldeb]

Texas has a long, long history of racial abuse which continues to this day. That's why everyone understood their support of Imus after I explained that Cecil was a 60+ white male, Soozen was his wife, and they live in small town in Texas.

[Doreen Peri]

Hi Deb...

OK. I see.

I thought hester thought you were saying something about HER with the "knowing grins" comment. That's what I thought, too.

Now I see you are saying that you are saying that because Ceil and Soozen live in Texas, this is why they are more tolerant of Imus' crude and bigoted remarks, since they are used to it since they live in a racially bigoted state.

That's what the "knowing grins" refers to?

Are you saying that everybody who lives in Texas are bigots? heh.. no, you can't be saying that.

I haven't commented to the topic of this thread because I wanted to stay out of it. But I will now.

In my opinion, Imus has always been a jerk. That's his schtick. The fact that people (including sponsors and the radio stations he is played on) have tolerated his prejudiced and attacking comments for so many years, tells me that he has an audience and it makes them money and that's all that's been important to them. Now, when this last incident occurred, he probably got fired only because one or more of the sponsors threatened to pull their financial support.

My take on it is that I don't listen to shock jocks and I don't think anybody has to. They can change the channel if they want, yanno?

But I also understand that Imus and other shock jocks (Howard Sperm, for instance... [sic]), attack every group equally. They don't focus on one group. It's supposed to be humorous because they stereotype groups and make fun of them .... equally.

I'm not too hip on that type of talk. I don't like it and I don't listen to it. That said, I think Howard Stern is a very funny guy sometimes. He's also cute! lol.. and Imus ain't all that bad looking either but that's not what this thread is about. He, too, can be funny.

I've never thought racially bigoted jokes were funny but I try to remember that it's just schtick. I don't HAVE to listen to it and nobody else does either.

In my opinion to say something about "knowing grins" when referring to people who live in a particular state, focusing on the fact that there is a history of racial prejudice in that particular state, implies that those who live there are probably inclined to be racially prejudice and I don't think that's fair. That's sorta similar to stereotyping ANY group of people, no?

I've known Cecil and SooZen for many years (though we've never met in person). But I know them well enough to know that they are not at all bigoted people.

Just because some people accept someone's schtick as schtick and don't take it as seriously as you do, doesn't mean there are "knowing grins" from everyone who finds the schtick offensive and it doesn't mean that the people who accept the schtick as humor which doesn't offend them doesn't mean they're bigoted.

All it means is that they don't take language as seriously as you do, maybe.

[Doreen Peri]

Oh and also what does someone's age have to do with it?

Not trying to get involved in a debate here, really.... To me, it's not all that important enough of a topic to debate.

Which I guess puts me in the category of those who don't get it when it comes to making a huge issue out of some idiot's so-called humor.

I just change the channel myself.

I DO think perhaps the tide is turning and people are becoming less tolerant of racial bigotry and that's a good thing.

But I do NOT think it's a good thing to censor people's speech. Once they start telling Imus what he can and cannot say, when do tell you and me what we can and cannot say?

I'm a big fan of free speech and I admire George Carlin for his work in getting those words on stage and fighting the broadcast media about what words people are allowed to say.

Words, after all, are really just words. Fuck. Shit. Yanno?



Thanks for the conversation. Feels good to speak out about what I feel also.

I'm glad we have this site where we can say what we feel without being censored. The only thing I've ever censored here is rude ... i mean WAY rude comments ... where people weren't respecting each other. And that's subjective, too. 'Cause were there comments in this thread like that? Probably. What gave me the right in the past to censor mean-spirited disrespectful comments? The only thing, I guess, is because it's my site and I don't really want to publish that shit. But am I like the radio station & the sponsor censoring Imus? Shit. I donno. I hope not. (Just because I feel he has the right to say whatever he wants no matter how much his so-called humor is in poor taste, I wouldn't want to broadcast him on my station but that's just me.)

sighh... gotta go take care of some Saturday errands. Thanks for the podium.

peace n love

[mnaz]

Doreen, you're brilliant. Thank you for saying many of the things I didn't get to. Imus and Stern will run their course and others will come along at some point, and their shtick will be some variation on the theme. I think the equal-opportunity aspect is noteworthy. These clowns skewer everyone irreverently, even themselves. They are lightweights; a part of disposable junk pop culture; caricatures of bad taste humor. I think of them not as vestiges of the "old white male power structure", but as low grade opportunists who often cater to everpresent incurious mediocrity in general (but then again, remember I never actually heard the Imus show--I'm going off others' descriptions of it). Personally, I'd like to see all these gutterball shows gone eventually. Would the world be a better place without them? Perhaps. Probably. But throwing a tirade in the name of "enlightenment" against other people who judge that they have more pressing issues to worry about than what some idiot shock jock said on the radio isn't going to get it done either. Sorry.

[mousey1]

As an outsider looking in I have to say it. Deb you sound very mean-spirited. It looks to me like you should try to practice what you say, which is look inward, you've said some hurtful things to Hester and I can't for the life of me figure out why.

This Imus guy blurted out some idiocy. He was trying to be funny. It backfired. I've been there and done that, and yes, I've lived and learned from it. I imagine this Imus fellow has too. But for you to come into this thread both barrels flying, judgmental as hell. What is to be gained?

Argument and disagreement is fine, but knowingly and willfully aiming to hurt someone, that is much worse than this stupid Imus guy's obnoxious blurt.

Maybe you didn't mean to attack, Deb, but there was a real flavor of venom exuding off your posts, a finger pointing that even I as a curious reader felt. Very accusatory. You can't force people to see things your way, yes, yes, hopefully we'll all get there, this wonderful place you're at; but you know what's sad, I'm not sure at this moment I want to "get there", it seems a little too high-falutin' and judgmental there.

Ain't none of us perfect, Deb. We're all just struggling along doing the best we can.

On a personal note it makes me sad that Hester feels she needs to speak with much more reserve from now on. Why should she feel that way. This is her place too. She should always, always, always be herself, especially here where being 'yourself' is encouraged. That applies to you too, Deb. By all means be yourself. If you're filled with rancor, well then let it fly...I'm just not sure your rancor here towards others was deserved. People were fleshing things out, speaking their minds, no, they weren't in perfect sync with yours but why the fury? Fury just gets people's hackles up even more and then often the real issue gets buried.

Respect each other's voices. I know I come off as a real idiot sometimes, but guess what, I'm an idiot with a heart. I say stupid things all the time...what does that make me? Should I constantly think and rethink myself. We all want acceptance for who we are and a little understanding would go a long way. Why assume we know another's purposes and intents? Diving in like he/she-devils causes only discord when I'm sure what we actually are all about here is a little harmony...harmony with variety.

Anyway, that is my gentle two cents worth. Not meant to anger. Tis just what I see. If it's not coming off as gentle then I'm sorry because it's meant to be.

I think Hester feels bad about some things said to and about her and if it's in anyone's power to fix that then I think they should at least try.

[mnaz]

These are all valid comments regarding this thread. And though I've made my objections known in several posts, I don't want to "pile on" too much against Deb. She did make me think this thing through to look for deeper connections-- inconclusive, for me-- but she did make me think it through. It's been an ugly thread in many ways. I've had to step back and take a hard look at my own style of 'net discourse... I'm sure I fall short of decorum on subjects where my passion and conviction is at its highest. There's a lot for me to learn here.