Studio8 - Uniting the Arts

I want to preface this thread first to thank Studio8, as I was able to post the url on the TampaBay VFP daily digest, and second, without the connection with Molly Ivans offerred by JT, I may not have worked out of the morass funk this rabid right winger got me into.

(thankyou mr tiles)
"The MINUTE someone impugns your patriotism for opposing this war, turn on them like a snarling dog and explain what loving your country really means." Molly Ivans, a Texas columnist wrote that just before she died. http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/1/2006/1304

on June 29, 2007 Lynn Hawkins <lynnhawkins77> wrote:
What a DISRESPECT to the troops serving ( those fallen) and those who will spend his 4th of July dodging bullets on your behalf ...while you PROTEST with the most despicable, slimy and crooked organization (st. Pete for "peace") I have ever seen in my life.
veterans for peace????? Most ALL of you weren't drafted YOU JOINED. You "veterans for peace" deserve NO honor for joining in on this type of display. You are a disgrace to our country and should be kicked out with the Mexicans. While you have the "right" Because of YOURSELVES and those fighting now to speak your mind...I think doing so on July 4th....a day in which this Nation HONORS our soldiers and are THANKFUL for our FREEDOM...THAT WE HAVE AS A RESULT OF WAR IN WHICH WE FOUGHT FOR OUR LAND, OUR RIGHTS, THE RIGHTS OF INNOCENT AND THE EMANCIPATION OF MANY COUNTRIES...is DISGUSTING ....

Obviously you don't remember your time served very well....I know first hand how you make these soldiers feel with this type of self-glorifying PARADE of BS!!!

SUPPORT OUR COUNTRY, OUR PRESIDENT AND DEFEND OUR FREEDOMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOUR A BUNCH OF Cowards!
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On 6/30/07, Jmlaw@... wrote:
ALL,

We give too much deference to the rant of Ms. Hawkins! Quite simply, she is wrong. We are not cowards. We all have served our country honorably. We all have been discharged from that service honorably. We all were fortunate enough to survive that service physically. We all carry different emotional and psychological scars borne of that service. We were not given the right to speak out, we earned that right. Did most of us join, rather than be drafted? Probably so. Why? Because in our uninformed youth we bought into the same scam that Ms. Hawkins buys into - "War is about duty, honor, country, patriotic songs, parades and flag waving". Only we all found out War is not about that at all. For those who have served, War is about lies, politics, profits, death, destruction, humiliation and horror.

I served from 1967 to 1971. Guess which war that was! I, and others, lost many friends to the lies and the liars who perpetrated that war ("The Gulf of Tonkin, the domino theory, the Communist threat, etc.). The profits there went to Bell Helicopter, Inc. My son served 18 months in Iraq in combat as a military policeman protecting convoys in and out of Baghdad so that Halliburton, Brown & Root and others could clip billions of dollars in coupons at the expense of the US Taxpayer - yes, even Ms. Hawkins has paid her fair share. My son lost friends to the present day lies and liars, all of whom never served a day in combat, much less a day in uniform! He has returned, left the U.S.Army Reserves, and now quietly fights the V.A. for paltry disability benefits. He speaks little of his experience. As my father spoke little of his experience in the Battle of the Bulge. It has taken most of us more than 30 years to speak about Vietnam. Sadly, each of my family's last three generations has been somewhat defined by the war they were asked to participate in.

Less than 3% of the population ever serves in the Armed Forces. Most Americans stand on the sidelines with no personal risk or stake in the outcome of any U.S. war. They cheer and wave flags and say: "Go get 'em boys and now girls!" They are enablers of the consciousness men and women who, for reasons of politics and profits, send our young men and women to fight and die in foreign lands - unnecessarily!

My bet is that Ms. Hawkins has never seen a friend killed or maimed or blown in half by an I.E.D or witnessed the slaughter of civilians - women, children and old people - by both sides, sometimes inadvertently, sometimes intentionally. The unknowing demagogues and the generals who serve as their lap dogs call civilian casualties "collateral damage". Those who have witnessed it call it horror. You cannot be human and be unaffected by these events.

I have but one request of Ms. Hawkins. Walk a mile in our shoes! Then return to your rant and see how it strikes you!

J M
Member VFP
(1st Lt. Artillery, JAG - Honorable Discharge, 21 Apr. 1971)

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Lynn Hawkins <lynnhawkins77> wrote:
I am not discrediting anything you have said. NO - I have NOT personally experienced those things and I do NOT think that patriotism is waving a god damn flag or singing a song. YOU dont know me anymore than I know you.

HOWEVER, My comments circulated around ST. PETE FOR PEACE. prior to VFP having a relationship with them GOD knows that I respected your organization... if anyone deserves the freedom of speech it is the veterans. SPFP are NOT peaceful demonstrators and they are TROUBLE makers...I have been dealing with them for YEARS and know first hand as do most of our COUNTY their tactics. They are not an honorable organization.

I am not WRONG.... I am entitled to my OPINION. I could call you Wrong just the same. Why don't you focus on welcoming the troops homem fighting for better seperation pay, for better health care for the returning instead of welcoming in open arms FREAKS like Cindy Sheehan..

I haven't been there personally (I chose not to as is MY right) but my brother calls several times per month....and he IS talking about it. We are given the details, he has lost friends, his Sargent his arm, he has seen children killed....IT ISNT A FUCKIN VACATION and I am AWARE of that...I do not romanticize the war...and we worry everyday he will not come back. He isn't a cook or a mechanic he is with the infantry with the mortars and on the front lines in a shawdy tent in Baghdad...I am not BLIND to that facts and reality surrounding this war.

BUT - i will not make the troops feel that their mission was unnecessary, that them or their comrades died in vain....THEY DESERVE RESPECT. If ANYONE knows that it should be YOU.

This 4th of July I will spend in remeberance of those that have fallen and THANKFUL to those who are dodging bullets on our behalf.
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On 6/29/07, Jmlaw@...wrote:
You are correct. We do not know one another; however, our words speak volumes.

If you read my missive carefully, i.e., the first three sentences, you will note that I did not suggest that you were wrong to have your opinion. I suggested that you were wrong to call us cowards - which you did.

I now understand your frustration. With your brother over there only you and those in your position know what kind of suffering that creates. I went through it for 18 months knowing way too much too soon via cell phone and computer. It gave me a heart attack, literally, so while you support your brother, take care of your health. My prayers go out to you and your brother for his safe return.

I do indeed agree that our troops deserve respect. It is simply my belief that the first order of respect is not to lie to them.

Finally, at the risk of prolonging the debate, I respectfully disagree with your characterization of Cindy Sheehan as a "FREAK". Ms. Sheehan is a mother who lost a son in a war that many Americans believe should not have occurred and most Americans now believe should end - for the sake of the troops still deployed and their families here at home. I hope you view that as support for you and your brother.
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On 7/01/07, J W <opusmaximus2050> wrote:
Subject: Re: You ought to be ashamed "veterans for peace"
To: "Lynn Hawkins" <lynnhawkins77>
Dear Lynn, Cindy Sheehan is a Gold star mother
You call her a freak because she opposes this war and wants to make this administration accuntable for the lies and false intel that got us there.
It seems to be quite a dilemma, how to support the troops and yet oppose the war.
we have arrived at a saying which is,
Honor the warrior, not the war.
Peace be with you on this Sunday.
Jim

Dear Ms Hawkins
I am a Vietnam veteran, was awarded the air medal with three oakleaf clusters and refused the standard end-of-tour distinguishhed flying cross, altho I claim it, is on my DD214.
I had direct contact with soldiers who were killed over there and know very well what the troops are going through today.

I am a proud member of Veterans for Peace, as a citizen soldier and am ready to put my life on the line at any moment for my country and for freedom. But I don't agree with this president and the terrible lies that mis-directed us from fighting against Al_Qaida in Afghanistan setting our soldiers up at the butt end of yet another bad deal while the president and his chickenhawk buddies make themselves rich at their expense. Yes that is how I seee it. However I agree with you that no disrespect should ever be shown to returning veterans or to military personnell. Let freedom ring with the liberty bell when we have redeployed our troops into a more sane and rational mission.
Yours truly
Jim Willingham
ps we ain't cowards
I want my country back!

Lynn Hawkins <lynnhawkins77> wrote:
If you want to help below is my brother, 26 year old SPC Fischer, husband and father of 3 children and 2 step-children....PRAY FOR HIM.

Lynn's brother in Baghdad
Jim wrote:
Lynn,
Your brother looks very alert and mindful and i am sure that he is as capable as anyone in his situation. He is better than a hundred George Bushes or Dick Cheneys or Wolfowitzes
and we need him to be healthy and strong.
Lets pray together yes indeed.
Dear God,
We pray that he will know that he is remembered during his tour over there, not forgotten or takin for granted. and that he will not be wearied or let down, but will keep his spirit strong and focused, and we pray that his tour will end and that he will be brought home, to stay here and not return to Iraq. We pray for common sense and decency in our governmentel leaders, that they may deserve the courage and honor of this man, an American soldier, with a sister who loves him and fervently supports him in his efforts to restore sanity to this tragically war torn nation. Amen.

Lynn,
One last word, I appreciate that you are sticking up for your brother. We learned all too late that returning military veterans from combat zones need encouragement and welcoming. I am confidant that we both share in this area. Proud to be a vet,
yours in faith, Jim
ps I liked the prayer that you got me into and will keep on with that.
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Lynn Hawkins <lynnhawkins77> wrote:
I like it as well and will keep it.
Best of luck in your new mission...we may cross paths one day

On 6/29/07, Jim Willingham <opusmaximus2050> wrote:
yes we have to stick together
we are one nation
have a long way to go.

and now the flag unfurls

Lynn Hawkins <lynnhawkins77> wrote:
we will agree to disagree bout Cind, that is for sure!!!!! The one thing my brother asked of my mother was to NEVER do anything of the nature...and he is fighting this war too....

Please don't tell me you respect and trust chavez as well???? If so that is very scary...


On 7/1/07, J W <opusmaximus2050> wrote:
Dear Lynn and compadres,
I too have some disagreements with President Chavez, for one, that he has used the same strong arm tactics that both President Bush and Prime minister tony Blair have used to propagate his goals. Fortunately, Chavez's policies have not resulted in mass casualties based upon lies, the way that Bush and Blair's have.

I agree that Chavez shutting down the Caracas TV station was dumb. Totally. But his strength in Venezuela lies as much with the elite wealthy but small upper class that constitutes the "Rebublican" Venezuelan opposition (and fuels dissent from the large underclass) as in any manipulative tendencies on his part. He is blessed with petrodollars, which he has used somewhat for public good, but also has ties to corruption and favoritism with the military, as he has purchased military equipment for them and increased their pay and benefits, while favored individuals get rich. (Sounds somewhat like Bush-Cheney to me). Venezuela has a democratic tradition and will not succumb to a military or totalitarian dictatorship. He was elected a couple of times, in elections that were at least as fair, open, and honorable as the last two elections here in America (national).
That he has called Bush names is no different from Bush using his inflated rhetoric about other countries, and we know now how distorted his (Bush's) opinion is, with regards to national security issues.
I suggest that your intensity of opinion is perhaps distorted as well and clouds the issues at hand. How is Chavez a threat to America? He does not subscribe to a kow towing attitude towards the current administration in Washington, regarding the manipulative economic policies that have suppressed a genuine economics development in Latin America for the last 100 years, in favor of an elite and a history of dictatorships. that is where I suggest that Chavez's real "threat" lies, an economic independence from a strong armed American economic-military policy towards Latin America.
He is not a revolutionary, only an elected strongman, like President Bush, just with different ideas.
I personally would shake his hand but would go out of my way to avoid President Bush, who is a tragic man.
J W
1LT USAF Vietnam flight instructor in tactical airlift (I flew a hearse)
resigned commission 1972
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Lynn Hawkins <lynnhawkins77> wrote: (to me)
your left wing liberalist mumbo jumbo doesn't even deserve an answer.
Under your name you should sign
-USA Traitor
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to "Lynn Hawkins" <lynnhawkins77>
Good luck, I fought for my country
and continue to do so.

jimboloco mumbo jumboloco

J C <joan> wrote:
Dear Jim,

Your response to Lynn Hawkins http://www.studioeight.tv/phpbb/viewtop ... 7732#67732 was well spoken. It is a shame that she can't hear you. She is too busy supporting the position that landed her brother in harm's way and has already killed way too many people, Americans and Iraqis (and whoever else got in the way!). People don't want to hear that a loved one gave up his or her live for a sham. However, I believe that the value of a life is best measured in what people live for, rather than what they die for. Keep up the good work and refuse to be shaken from your waging of peace.

I have to make a distinction between country and government. Until we remove power from the corporations, our government will always serve the hand that feeds it - that is human nature! I would never have sent you off to war. Let's continue to work for peace and try to create a groundswell of awareness that war isn't the answer and that peace is possible as a foreign policy tool.

Yours in Peace,
Joan

J C
Tampa World Can't Wait

Thanks Joan. you are right nobody wants to hear that a loved one died for a sham, we call it getting wasted, which is why Cindy Sheehan is such an anathema to her.

By the way, Bill Richardson has said that we should stop the tax breaks for the corporations that take their shelters offshore, and give tax incentives to companies that want to do biz in the poorer areas. Makes sense to me.

as far as my going off to war goes, well, I was programed to go, but even during pilot training and before that in college while in the AFROTC I was exposed to dissent, so I went to Vietnam as a cargo pilot, carried my bullets in my pocket like Barney Fife, got to see a lot and am glad I went. It gave me a solid basis for rejecting the massive abuse of power that the USA projects.

I am not absolutely a pacifist, just want to end this global projection of power that is so endemic to the American pathos and is so tragic.
Thanks for your kind note. Not communicating anymore with Ms Hawkins. Hope her brother comes home well and soon.
Jim

Ms Hawkins sounds like a True Believer


I don't know what to think of Cindy Sheehan.
I suppose it was a dog and pony show the first time she met Bush. She did not think of all the things she wanted to say to him. So she wanted a second chance?

well, Cindy split from the scene last month
and I am doing the same,
I am just fed up with the intensity of it all,
I understand how Ms Hawkins feels, her need to justify, etc, but don't want anybody calling me a fucking traitor. because I get pissed and that connects with my vulnerability and the deep rooted anger and pain that I still harbor within,
so I won't get into this kind of discussion with a right winger fanatic anymore, she who also said in a post up the thread , we peace vets should all be sent out of the country along with the Mexicans,
it is instructive to know that this kind of rabid reactionary attitude is alive in Amerika,
and is dangerous.

As for me, I am on sabbatical from the veterans, and getting my voice out occasionally in letters, radio call ins.calls to the duped congressman and senators here in Florita, and that's it.

I am sick of this shit.

thanks for responding, i admire the heck out of Cindy Sheehan, and wonder now if she really would want another meeting with BUSHCO,
as she knows that he is not the least reflective.
maybe he is a true believer too, in what idon't know, but i think what he believes in is privelege and that makes the world go round. Beneficial greed.

Comrade Jim: I believe you tried, oh how you tried to
impart some knowledge to this person, whose mind is
closed tight, never permitting reasoned thought to
penetrate her brain washed mind, a serious condition
that experts say may well be passed from generation to
generation, and currently infects more then 100
million
of our fellow citizens.

Several members of the ruling class of Venezuela, came
to Washington D.C. to seek permission for them to
overthrow Chavez. The Coup failed and Hugo was
returned
to the Presidential Palace by a segment of their armed
forces (Hugo is Military and served with an elite
force)in response to hundreds of thousands of workers
and farmers (armed). Demanding his return (or else)

The history of our country, written and taught to our
youth, portrays the intentions of all our "leaders" as
benevolent, spreading love and Democracy around the
world, always taking military actions, so as to
protect and defend the oligarchy against any type of
insurgency that promised outrageous destabilizing
reforms, like expropriating huge estates from the
latifundista and giving free parcels of their land to
the lowest of the low, the landless peasant. Holy
Mackerel ! Ideas like this could spread and endanger
our own way of life.

Mexico is a super example of many countries that
really need a Revolution. A very small oligarchy,
sitting on the backs and head of masses of poor
landless, fleeing their country so as to survive.

The United States serves as a saftey valve, and
Agra Busniess, Construction Contractors, Landscapers
Restraunts and so many more exploit then and make more
difficult the uniting of native born workers into
Unions.

But you knew all of this !
jesse-
(korean war vet)
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i hate being called a traitor, it really stews me big time. and when i get angry, it all comes back to me, depression, livid rage, frustration

I know about the intended coup, and i support Chavez, altho I can have an independent not a servile view of him.

Thanks for your enlightening words, and I will read them again, Jim

M T <meredith> wrote:
TampaBayVFP@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
> posted dialogue with Jeff And me and Ms Hawkins <1>
I hope one day I can maintain the level of peace, respect and
compassion that you show in this exchange with Ms. Hawkins. I
admire your strength.

God's peace to you,
Meredith

well Meridith, really I am not feeling so peaceful, I even wrote a very prayerful response to her in the midst pf that dialogue, but when shecalled me a traitor it really pissed me off big time and I told her that I was blocking her address, I have a lot of inner anger and deep wounds from my down and out years, post Vietnam, 20 tough years,
\it sucks to know that this kind of mentality still exists,

thanks for your kind words. Jim

What about all that meditation jimbo
isn't that supposed to keep people from pushing your button.

I reminded of a story about the man who became a hermit, he lived in a mountain cave for years and meditated. He finally achieved enlightenment.

So he came down off the mountain and entered a village where someone jostled him in a crowd. He got pissed. Did he blow it?

What would the Dalai Lama say?

Are you a true believer jim?

yes i was talking about this this morning with my zen therapist

meditation is not to hide, or to absolutely pacify, alltho calming is very helpful, and needed,
but really the buddha taught about being present
and a real practiced meditation master would be present with the irritant
and not necesarily react to it
me i have a big time startle response
why i don't carry a gun

the hermit was not practised in community
but did he reflect on the incident afterwards and include it in his practice,
or did he continue to isolate himself without regard for his surroundings

i believe in the dharma, yes, but am not 100% dedicated
the middle way is a concept that appeals to me
do what you can and stay present with what arises, and if you lose it, then you can always get present with what happened in retrospect

So you spammed the bitch?

I don't get it jim. I don't know what you meant by that. You were trying to pay her back?

Or am I taking you too literaly?

That is what is on my mind.

I wish I had a Zen therapist, seriously.

Help me here please. I am not much on payback anymore.

A friend of my niece drove me bonkers with her support for Bush, Now she is dying of breast cancer, in her last days and nothing seems important to me anymore.

i hit the spam button to prevent her from emailing me anymore
shows what can happen when you get into somebody else's conversation,
i got forwarded an email from her to a brother peace vet
and so it goes

i work with some republickins

i got a large copy of a dollar bill on my locker in the nurses locker room what i share with the babes
i colored george's hair yellow
wrote hillary for prez on it
(i work with all women
i carry a man purse
i need some protection in the locker room)
she ain't a purist either
but hey
at least she can grow and learn
is not a formula for intense elite oligarchy
wants social benefit
and diplomacy
and most of my co-workers like her too

It is arduous to look at ourselves in fearless honesty, uninfluenced by ideas and images of what we are or should be. It is easier to cling to the apparent security of our automatic patterns of thinking and reacting, but these inevitably bring conflict and sorrow. Only with clear and immediate insight can the mind begin to free itself from its conditioning, opening up to the depth of understanding that is compassion.


— Toni Packer
http://www.springwatercenter.org/

must be my karma, dharma bum brother

time to meditate
ps i gave the rabid right winger's email address to pint size meredith

I look up to you jim
I feel like a little kid sometimes
you know how they ask questions when they think they see an inconsistency or whatever you call it.
thanks for the comeback

http://media.dharmaseed.org/wimpy/wimpy ... /lr117.mp3

http://www.dharmaseed.org/teachers/?p=0 ... 0Rosenberg

here is a good teacher

you look up to me
wow

It takes some balls to call a veteran a coward and a traitor, especially when you've never had to experience the horrors of war.

Whenever I do anti-war graf art, I always use 'Support troops, not war'. My sister says she's cool with it, and that's all I need to know.

So many right-wingers tell me that the troops are dying for my right to free speech, so I should shut up. I'm still trying to figure out their logic.

I doubt it makes you feel better, but I've been called a traitor. I don't know, I pay my taxes, I vote (which is more than 50% of my fellow citizens and patriots can say for a presidential election, let alone local). I think you're allowed to be angry. I would be.

One of my professors of American History, who was a Marine for 12 years, told my class that protests did nothing. He then told us that in his 40-some years he had never voted. I heard some of our founding fathers rolling over in their graves.

I don't really know where I was headed with this. Sometimes I think the Lost Generation had the right idea:

'Disillusionment with the conservatism of American politics and the materialism of the culture inspired some American artists and writers to emigrate to Paris. The Lost Generation of cultural exiles included novelists and poets like Ernest Hemingway, Gertrude Stein, and F. Scott Fitzgerald. Europe, they felt, valued art and culture, and appreciated unrestrained freedom of expression (and, of course, allowed individuals to drink legally).' (from some history book)

I get so tired of it, and Lord knows, you've been in the fight longer than I have, jimboloco.

So many right-wingers tell me that the troops are dying for my right to free speech, so I should shut up. I'm still trying to figure out their logic.

Thanks Detroit brother
I am wearing red, white, and blue today, going to work in my hospital.

You can tell your history professor that the US Marines have a long history in independent thinkers, like Daniel Ellsberg, Korean War, who released the Pentagon Papers, Smedley Butler (was the commandant) who was an anti-imperialist, Steven Gaskin, Korea, who also taught history at U San Fransisco, led the love-ins, and now with Good an Plenty and The Farm in Summertown Tennessee, of course Ron Kovics, my friend Robert McLane www.norespectpublishing.com , Mark Shields (Marines), formerly of PBS wrote an editorial once called "why Marines make great liberals), Robert Mueller, who started Vietnam Vets of America and works with Princess Diana's ghost to ban land mines
but of course you can ask the prof why he doesn't vote.
thanks for your little quote, iliterate as I am, it always helpd, and am healed and empowered by your support,
we are definately brothers

ps say howdy to abstroint if you see her sometime in Kalamazooo

McLane's book review about Stop War America at bottom of his web page
thanks again, off to the jewel mines

we need to get our country back

Whenever I do anti-war graf art, I always use 'Support troops, not war'. My sister says she's cool with it, and that's all I need to know

good idea yes indeed