Studio8 - Uniting the Arts

Apologetics is a branch of systematic theology, although some experience it’s thrust in religious studies or philosophy of religion courses. Some encounter it on the internet for the first time in a more populist and usually much less academic form. As I see it, apologetics is primarily concerned with the protection of a religious position, the refutation of that position's assailants and, in the larger sense, the exploration of that position in the context of prevailing philosophies and standards in a secular society. Apologetics, to put it slightly differently, is concerned with answering critical inquiries, criticism of a position, in a rational manner. Apologetics is not possible, it seems to me anyway, without a commitment to and a desire to defend a position. For me, the core of my position I could express in one phrase: the Baha'i Revelation. With that said, though, the activity I engage in, namely, apologetics, is a never ending exercise.

The apologetics that concerns me is not so much Christian apologetics or one of a variety of what might be called secular apologetics, but Baha'i apologetics. There are many points of comparison and contrast, though, which I won't go into here. Christians will have the opportunity to defend Christianity by the use of apologetics; secular humanists can argue their cases if they so desire here. And I will in turn defend the Baha'i Faith by the use of apologetics. In the process we will both, hopefully, learn something about our respective Faiths, our religions, which we hold to our hearts dearly.

At the outset, then, in this my first posting, my intention is simply to make this start, to state what you might call "my apologetics position." This brief statement indicates, in broad outline, where I am coming from in the weeks and months ahead. -Ron Price with thanks to Udo Schaefer, "Baha'i Apologetics?" Baha'i Studies Review, Vol. 10, 2001/2002.

welcome RonPrice

I think this is a great conversation to have here. I was just thinking about the Hitchins book the other day. Athiest apologetics.

Just so you know, I don't apologize or expliain. Poet's creed. I suppose that makes me an apologist.

But these are very important subjects to some people. I hope that this thread gets a lot of use.

Do me a favor:
In simple straightforward terms, (no links or footnotes, in your own words) state the tenets or beliefs of the Baha'i faith. And no apologies, just the straight facts. When you call yourself a Baha'i, what do you believe?

Here is one of my credos(in my own words as you stress) that I've put at several sights over the years:
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CREDO AND COMMENT

The year I began my pioneering experience in the Baha'i community of Canada, 1962, Erich Fromm, American psychoanalyst and prolific writer in the field of existential psychology, stated his 'credo' in his book Beyond the Chains of Illusions. I have written some of his Credo below since it was consistent with my views back in 1962. I have commented on some of his Credo expressing views that have remained part of my beliefs during this pioneering venture spanning, as it does now, some forty years.

"The most important factor for the development of the individual is the structure and the values of the society into which he has been born." Given this fact, my role as a Baha'i has been to spend my life trying to build the kind of society fit for human beings to be born into. For, as Fromm says in his Credo, "society has both a furthering and an inhibiting function. Only in cooperation with others, and in the process of work, does man develop his powers, only in the historical process do humans create themselves. Only when the aims of individuals, the aims of the heterogeneous and plethora of sub-groups within any one society become harmonious with and consistent within the fabric of the inevitably pluralistic wider society and, in recent decades, with the aims of humanity in this new phase of the planetization of humankind will society cease to cripple man and to further evil. This, of course, is no easy matter. Indeed, the very nature and meaning of the statements I have made here are immensely complex and not subject to simplistic answers.

In attempting to transform society, Fromm underestimated the need for individuals to adapt to their society. This adaptive process is slow and arduous work and, for Baha'is, it takes place in the context of action toward goals using a map provided by the Founders of their religion and the legitimate successors.

"I believe that every man represents humanity. We are different as to intelligence, health and talents. Yet we are all one. We are all saints and sinners, adults and children, and no one is anybody's superior or judge." So writes Fromme. It is obvious, I might add here, somewhat parenthetically, that talent is not spread equally among all indivuals. To put this another way: equality is a chimera, an illusion. As Fromm goes on, "We have all been awakened with the Buddha, we have all been crucified with Christ, and we have all killed and robbed with Genghis Khan, Stalin, and Hitler. Man's task in life is precisely the paradoxical one of realizing his individuality and at the same time transcending it and arriving at the experience of universality. Only the fully developed individual self can drop the ego." Perhaps this is one way of defining the nature of 'Abdu'l-Baha and His life’s achievement(1844-1921). -Ron Price, Pioneeering Over Four Epochs, 9 October 2002.

There is much truth here, Erich.

I must thank you for your wonderful

and illuminating books, enriching

my life as they have, approximating

the jewelled wisdom of this lucid Faith

that I set out with in '62 when I moved

to Dundas and began to pray in those

back streets on cold Canadian afternoons,

read from His sweet-scented streams

and taste of the fruits of His tree

in those years when my father's white hair

blew in the wind for the last time,

my mother was driven to the end of her tether

and that charisma became institutionalized

at the apex of this wondrous Order.

Erich Fromm, Beyond the Chains of Illusions, Simon and Schuster, NY, 1962, pp.174-182.

Ron Price
9 October 2002
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Thank you for you question, Lightning Rod. See ya, lateRon.

Hitchens' "atheist apologetics" and the apologetics of the theologians (or quasi-theologians such as Fromm) differ substantially, however: Hitchens never makes any appeals to supernatural entities, or even to dubious concepts such as "evil". That's not to say that Hitchens' is always correct, but the burden rests on religious apologists to provide some convincing arguments for God, the soul, the afterlife, etc.. Though the Catholic church believes that religious concepts can be defended rationally, few would agree that there are any convincing arguments for religious "concepts": ALL religious belief requires a leap of faith. So religious apologetics often becomes a sort of a quasi-argument, since the core concepts are really incapable of any logical or scientific justification. Yet there may be an art to it: even Kierkegaard was quite a wit at times.

So let me illustrate the concept of the spiritual by reference to the words of one distinguished commentator. Polkinghorne refers to what he says is the poverty of the objectivistic (or scientific) account: “…When we consider the mystery of music. From a scientific point of view, it is nothing but vibrations in the air, impinging on the eardrums and stimulating neural currents in the brain. How does it come about that this banal sequence of
temporal activity has the power to speak to our hearts of an eternal beauty? The whole range of subjective experience, from perceiving a patch of pink, to being enthralled by a performance of the Mass in B Minor, and on the mystic’s encounter with the ineffable reality of the One, all these truly human experiences are at the centre of our encounter with reality and are not to be dismissed as epiphenomenal froth on the surface of a universe whose true nature is impersonal and lifeless."1

Thus sound has both a scientific basis as well as a non-material quality or attribute......and on and on goes the discussion. I will leave my point here and simply end with the appropriate footote from:
1.--John Polkinghorne, “Belief in God in an Age of Science”, (1998, Yale UP), 18-19. The Buddha said “It is not in the body of the lute that one finds the true abode of music”, and the great Toscanini said “Play not with your instruments but with your heart.” See Guy Murchie, “The Seven Mysteries of Life”, (1978, Houghton Mifflin), 643.

--I shall be back for this potentially infinite discussion.-Ron

OK, sir: I sort of agree, in terms of being opposed to some Skinner-like behaviorism or strict Darwinism that equates all human activity to stimulus- response or natural selection (ironically, BF supposedly was quite a pianist). But being in awe of Debussy's La Mer, or even at the ocean, mountains, etc does not at all equal belief in "God." Emotions--even powerful sensations, or "mysticism"---do not an argument make. Moreover any sort of feelings of awe or sublimity also would include awe at volcanoes, or tidal waves, dinosaurs, predators, insects, plagues, even human disasters: which a God would have knowingly created/allowed (as Voltaire realized). Not sure awe is the right word for witnessing say the tsunami of 12/04: more like horror

Just To Focus on a Baha'i Perspective on God and give you a little more idea of where I am coming from, as they say these days:

The emphasis is placed, in the Baha'i teaching, on the original founder of each of the great religions, the spiritual purity and selfless nature of that founder’s life and the elevated nature of the teachings of that founder, and not on subsequent interpretations by others of that founder’s life and teachings. This approach is based on the principle that the founder is a “Manifestation” of the divine on earth, with authority to propound divine principles and values for the spiritual education of humanity. The
founder inaugurates a new spiritual cycle on earth, a new religion, framed to meet the requirements of contemporary time and place whilst restating eternal spiritual fundamentals. The founder suffers greatly for these teachings, but the faith so established triumphs over adversity and flourishes.

Within the Baha’i Faith, the greatest care is taken to ensure the authenticity and accuracy of the Writings of the Founder of the Baha’i Faith, Baha’ú’llah, and of any translations of those Writings into other languages. No Baha’i is entitled to push his or her understanding of those Writings onto anyone else, and there is no clergy. Again, for present purposes it is not necessary for you to accept the truth of any such spiritual principles and values as so taught in any particular belief system, nor for you to It is simply a matter of accepting that this methodology does give rise to many, many spiritual belief systems which are accepted as being binding by their adherents. One does not have to accept the validity of a particular spiritual belief in order to accept that there are spiritual forces at work in the universe (and beyond). And in any event, many adherents of various beliefs would accept that they are on a journey of spiritual discovery in their lives, one in which the spiritual truth only emerges gradually and by degrees as a result of a developing understanding and maturity. It is one thing, for example, to adopt the principle of “love thy neighbour”; it is quite another to fully understand what it means, how it interacts with other spiritual principles, and how it should be applied in practice from day to day.....That's enough for now. See ya, later.-Ron Price, Tasmania

Hello, Ron - an interesting thread you've got going here.

In your brief synopsis of Baha'i, I would take it that the followers embrace the teachings of the founders of the major religions, i.e. Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity and Muslim (for starters), as coming from the same 'one source.' How many of the world's religions are actually accepted by Baha'i as being from the Absolute? Could it be understood that Baha'ists are followers of Bahá'u'lláh over the other founders of religions?

Thanks.

Here Is A Start To An Answer to your question...an answer which has many facets:
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When Bahá'ís say that the various religions are one, they do not mean that the various religious creeds and organizations are the same. Rather, they believe that there is only one religion and all of the Messengers of God have progressively revealed its nature. Together, the world's great religions are expressions of a single unfolding Divine plan, "the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future."

People from all of the major religious backgrounds have found that the promises and expectations of their own beliefs are fulfilled in the Bahá'í Faith. Bahá'ís from Native American, African and other indigenous backgrounds, similarly, find in the Bahá'í teachings fulfillment of prophetic visions.

For Bahá'ís of Jewish background, Bahá'u'lláh is the appearance of the promised "Lord of Hosts" come down "with ten thousands of saints." A descendent of Abraham and a "scion from the root of Jesse," Bahá'u'lláh has come to lead the way for nations to "beat their swords into plowshares." Many features of Bahá'u'lláh's involuntary exile to the Land of Israel, along with other historical events during Bahá'u'lláh's life and since are seen as fulfilling numerous prophecies in the Bible.

For Bahá'ís of Buddhist background, Bahá'u'lláh fulfils the prophecies for the coming of "a Buddha named Maitreye, the Buddha of universal fellowship" who will, according to Buddhist traditions, bring peace and enlightenment for all humanity. They see the fulfillment of numerous prophecies, such as the fact that the Buddha Maitreye is to come from "the West", noting the fact that Iran is West of India.

For Bahá'ís of Hindu background, Bahá'u'lláh comes as the new incarnation of Krishna, the "Tenth Avatar" and the " Most Great Spirit. " He is "the birthless, the deathless" the One who, "when goodness grows weak," returns "in every age" to "establish righteousness" as promised in the Bhagavad-Gita.

For Bahá'ís of Christian background, Bahá'u'lláh fulfils the paradoxical promises of Christ's return "in the Glory of the Father" and as a "thief in the night." That the Faith was founded in 1844 relates to numerous Christian prophecies. Bahá'ís note, for example, that central Africa was finally opened to Christianity in the 1840s, and that event was widely seen as fulfilling the promise that Christ would return after "the Gospel had been preached " to all nations." In Bahá'u'lláh's teachings Bahá'ís see fulfillment of Christ's promise to bring all people together so that " there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

For Bahá'ís of Muslim background, Bahá'u'lláh fulfils the promise of the Qur'an for the "Day of God" and the "Great Announcement," when "God" will come down "overshadowed with clouds." They see in the dramatic events of the Bábí and Bahá'í movements the fulfillment of many traditional statements of Muhammad, which have long been a puzzle.
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The central focus of the Baha'i Faith is the concept and consciousness of the oneness of mankind and this concept/consciousness rests upon the recognition of the principle of religious unity. Religious unity alone, the Baha'i argues, can provide the necessary motivation, devotion, and vision to accomplish truly global fellowship among the peoples of the world.

What do Baha'is mean when they speak of the oneness of religion and religious unity? The Baha'i principle of the unity of religions is based on the conception of the oneness of reality. This, in turn, is grounded on two assumptions: 1) that all religions find their origins in a single transcendent truth which is ultimately their source; 2) that all religions find their highest expression in transforming faith experiences grounded in the spiritual nourishment of prayer and meditation, which lead to the acquisition of spiritual virtues. The essential unity of religions consists, not so much of a common set of spiritual principles viewed as entities, but more of a common spiritual motion.

While the Baha'i approach to religious diversity is thus inclusivistic, at the same time, it does not ignore the very real differences which exist among the various religions. The Baha'i principle of religious unity includes within it aspects of what could be called perspectivism and historical relativism.
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Q: Another way of looking at/defining your question is: Do Baha'is believe that any single Prophet of God is the "supreme" or "primary" Prophet?

A: No, Baha'is believe that all the Prophets of God have an equivalent station, that they all received a Divine Revelation from God and act as perfect mirrors of the divine attributes of God. Central to the Baha'i Faith is the concept of "progressive revelation." Baha'is believe that God sends a new Prophet or "Manifestation" to mankind approximately every thousand years, to renew the central spiritual teachings which are common to all the religions of God and to bring new social teachings which are appropriate to mankind's social, cultural and technological development at that time. Baha'is recognize Baha'u'llah as the Manifestation for the current age. Among the prior Manifestations of God recognized by the Baha'i Faith are Moses, Buddha, Krishna, Christ and Muhammed.
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That's enough for now...probably too much, for which I apologize for carrying on at such length.-Ron

Thx, Ron, for your more extensive explanation on Baha'i... I found it interesting and I would agree with some of the concepts as you described.

Where I find some doubts, if I understand your words correctly, is an adherence to the religions you named, whereas I am more apt to feel the 'founders' of these religions were not the religions themselves but the words of Krishna, the words of Jesus, the words of Mohammed, Moses or Baha'u'llah are how these prophets best described their own encounters with Self-Realization... they weren't followers of their religion and did not intend to create a religion - these religions were begun by their followers who saw in them a 'godliness' that was equated with God, god-head, Allah, Yahweh or whatever word best described the personal experience of these prophetic people.

The world is and has been filled with people who found their god, not because of religions but because of a desire to know themselves. I believe it was Jesus who said "Know thyself." This inner search is what these 'prophets' initially did and many other cultures, both current and passed, have had their own 'prophets' that spoke to them of the 'Great Spirit' or whatever word best symbolized the personal inner experience these people had. Although one could argue whether these individuals began a religion or not, the important thing is to know that they had an equally personal experience as those whose names are equated with the major religions you have mentioned.

[enough]

I will retire for the night now. Thank you for reading!

Cecil

Yes, your understanding is the Baha'i understanding or to quote from the Baha'i writings along the lines you have indicated in your words, in your posting today---"I am more apt to feel the 'founders' of these religions were not the religions themselves but the words of Krishna, the words of Jesus, the words of Mohammed, Moses or Baha'u'llah."

One of the many Baha'i writings on the subject goers like this:

In the world of God there is no past, no future and no present; all are one. So when Christ said, "In the beginning was the Word" that means it was, is and shall be; for in the world of God there is no time. Time has sway over creatures but not over God. For example, in the prayer He says, "Hallowed be Thy name"; the meaning is that Thy name was, is and shall be hallowed. Morning, noon and evening are related to this earth, but in the sun there is neither morning, noon nor evening.
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But the proceeding through manifestation, if by this is meant the divine appearance, we have said, is the proceeding and the appearance of the Holy Spirit and the Word, which is from God. As it is said in the Gospel of John, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God"; then the Holy Spirit and the Word are the appearance of God. The Spirit and the Word mean the divine perfections that appeared in the Reality of Christ, and these perfections were with God; so the sun manifests all its glory in the mirror. For the Word does not signify the body of Christ, no, but the divine perfections manifested in Him. For Christ was like a clear mirror which was facing the Sun of Reality; and the perfections of the Sun of Reality - that is to say, its light and heat - were visible and apparent in this mirror. If we look into the mirror, we see the sun, and we say, "It is the sun." Therefore, the Word and the Holy Spirit, which signify the perfections of God, are the divine appearance. This is the meaning of the verse in the Gospel which says: "The Word was with God, and the Word was God"; for the divine perfections are not different from the Essence of Oneness. The perfections of Christ are called the Word because all the beings are in the condition of letters, and one letter has not a complete meaning, while the perfections of Christ have the power of the word because a complete meaning can be inferred from a word. As the Reality of Christ was the manifestation of the divine perfections, therefore, it was like the word. Why? because He is the sum of perfect meanings. This is why He is called the Word.

And know that the proceeding of the Word and the Holy Spirit from God, which is the proceeding and appearance of manifestation, must not be understood to mean that the Reality of Divinity had been divided into parts, or multiplied, or that it had descended from the exaltation of holiness and purity. God forbid! If a pure, fine mirror faces the sun, the light and heat, the form and the image of the sun will be resplendent in it with such manifestation that if a beholder says of the sun, which is brilliant and visible in the mirror, "This is the sun," it is true. Nevertheless, the mirror is the mirror, and the sun is the sun. The One Sun, even if it appears in numerous mirrors, is one. This state is neither abiding nor entering, neither commingling nor descending; for entering, abiding, descending, issuing forth and commingling are the necessities and characteristics of bodies, not of spirits; then how much less do they belong to the sanctified and pure Reality of God. God is exempt from all that is not in accordance with His purity and His exalted and sublime sanctity.

The Sun of Reality, as we have said, has always been in one condition; it has no change, no alteration, no transformation and no vicissitude. It is eternal and everlasting. But the Holy Reality of the Word of God is in the condition of the pure, fine and shining mirror; the heat, the light, the image and likeness - that is to say, the perfections of the Sun of Reality - appear in it. That is why Christ says in the Gospel, "The Father is in the Son" - that is to say, the Sun of Reality appears in the mirror.(1) Praise be to the One Who shone upon this Holy Reality, Who is sanctified among the beings! --`Abdu'l-Baha: Some Answered Questions, Pages: 206-208.
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Enough for now. Best wishes to you, Cecil.-Ron Price, Tasmania