Are our soldiers fighting and dying in Iraq in vain?

What in the world is going on?
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stilltrucking
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Post by stilltrucking » July 31st, 2007, 8:27 pm

I agree with you Cecil plenty of good people serving their country the best they can but something else is happening with the new breed of recruits. We may not be talking about the noble citizen soldier anymore. The bad apples are increasing according to the eye witness news blues.



Image Cincinnatus
Gang symbols showing up ... in Iraq

The list of tensions in Iraq goes on and on: between Sunnis and Shiites, between government forces and rebels, between Kurds and Arabs, and more. But according to a story in today's Chicago Sun-Times, Iraq is now starting to feel the reach of American gangs.

Graffiti for the Gangster Disciples, Latin Kings, Vice Lords, and others is showing up in "armored vehicles, concrete barricades and bathroom walls" in Iraq, the paper says. One soldier is photographing the graffiti, and the paper posts a photo gallery.

According to a Defense Department detective, the number of known gang members serving in Iraq could be just "the tip of the iceberg," with military experiences causing problems for civilian lives at home. But others disagree, including the spokesman for an Army investigation group.
http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/20 ... ls_sh.html
Moral Waivers

More entering Army with criminal records
By Bryan Bender, Globe Staff | July 13, 2007
WASHINGTON -- Nearly 12 percent of Army recruits who entered basic training this year needed a special waiver for those with criminal records, a dramatic increase over last year and 2 1/2 times the percentage four years ago, according to new Army statistics obtained by the Globe.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washi ... ds/?page=1
Accused G.I. Was Troubled Long Before Iraq

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/14/us/14 ... yt&emc=rss

In March, 2007, when I wrote about the anniversary of the murder of a 14-year-old Iraqi girl and her family at the hands of US soldiers, one of the most troubling aspects of the story was the fact that the ringleader of the killers was a man with a troubled past who had allowed into the Army on a moral waiver.

Now comes the news that the about one in eight recent US military recruits are entering the Armed Forces on waivers for everything from minor traffic violations to felony convictions. That's an increase of 2 1/2 times the percentage of such recruits in 2003 and 2004.
http://blogher.org/node/22335
US Army wants to enlist illegal aliens quickly as recruitment falls
Submitted by Canada IFP on Mon, 2007-06-11 19:29.
Sponsor: X-Treme Geek: USB Missile Launcher
http://pressesc.com/01181590069_army_illegal_aliens

Everything so black and white when you are young I remember how it was for me, people were either good or evil, and I was sure I was a good guy because I was an american. I knew where all the evil was, in Germany and Japan. Later it was China and Russia, these days I can't hardly keep up with our new enemy of the day. I am not the patriot I used to be.

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Post by eyelidlessness » August 1st, 2007, 5:30 am

mtmynd wrote: There's not an army in the world that does not rely on the warrior class. The warriors know that death is a reality when engaged in wars. That won't change.
Hm. I don't think that's true. Some indigenous cultures' wars are more like rugby than what we consider war. Even in a lot of cultures where war commonly results in noteworthy death tolls, neither the motives of the soldiers, the numbers of dead nor the demographics of dead (as in, soldiers versus non-combatants) match what we usually see in wars fought by the world powers and other major civilizations.

There is a world of difference between "knowing that death is a reality" (which, as I was discussing in the Silencing thread, remarkably our culture manages to avoid recognizing in any kind of healthy way) and agreeing to kill strangers half a world away for money.
It's historically ingrained in mankind's psyche.
Prove it.
The warrior is celebrated in books and movies. It's a slice of human reality.
But even if "books and movies" approached any kind of anthropological evidence of human nature, we're not even talking about warriors; we're talking about hitmen, assassins and mercenaries.

* * *
stilltrucking wrote:I agree with you Cecil plenty of good people serving their country the best they can
How?
but something else is happening with the new breed of recruits. We may not be talking about the noble citizen soldier anymore. The bad apples are increasing according to the eye witness news blues.
What? People who agree to kill or die for financial gain aren't "noble". I don't know what they are, but they're not fucking noble. In our culture, typical might be the right word.
Everything so black and white when you are young I remember how it was for me, people were either good or evil, and I was sure I was a good guy because I was an american. I knew where all the evil was, in Germany and Japan. Later it was China and Russia, these days I can't hardly keep up with our new enemy of the day. I am not the patriot I used to be.
Uh, okay? I don't think things are black and white. I don't think I've made any comment about anyone being good or evil, and I certainly haven't externalized my responsibility towards getting my own country in line by blaming others.

Also, hi pot? This is kettle. You're black. You just started a post with a series of quotes claiming there are "bad apples" in the military (I totally fail to see how "illegal" immigrants are "bad apples"), then concluded it with a condescending remark about young people seeing the world in terms of good and evil.

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Post by e_dog » August 1st, 2007, 6:53 am

it ain't tha apples, man. the whole fucking barrel is rotten. the institution is corrupt. it ruins the apples. then the apples kill people.

Fuck the US military! for the past sixty years they've been a force for global oppression, at least. some poor deluded suckas agree to serve thinking they're doing they duty, but really serving tha Killin Machine. Uncle SAM is a SAdo-Masochist.

"GI Joe . . . a real American Hero! . . . G I J o e !!"

the kids is brainwashed. Its the TV and them videogames and militry recrooters in school.
I don't think 'Therefore, I am.' Therefore, I am.

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Post by Doreen Peri » August 1st, 2007, 7:29 am

eyelids.... imo comments like "prove it" sound argumentative. *shrug*... Comes off that way. Just a sideline comment from a non-participating reader. And it looks to me that truckin was talking to mtmynd in his last post. Maybe I read it wrong. Sorry to butt in. I'll shuddup now.

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Post by Doreen Peri » August 1st, 2007, 7:31 am

e-dog... well said! concisely right on. (but i think it's been way longer than 60 years ;))

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Post by stilltrucking » August 1st, 2007, 8:45 am

I suppose I was thinking about people like Pat Tillman. He sure did not need the money. I can relate to it. In 1964 when I tried to volunteer to do my patriotic chore after the Gulf of Tonkin incident I was motivated by patriotism. (or shame) You know this my native land. But since then I have become homeless, a metaphysical homelessness.

It is a good point about the illegals. No they are not bad apples.

Just mercenaries. My father got his citizenship during world war one that way.

I appologize if I sound condenscending. But I was so sure about somethings when I was you age. But I guess I am not as sure of things as I used to be. I just can't pass judgement on every soldier in the military. Some of them are just young and don't know better. Some if them are just not as smart as you. I am sure a lot of them will be a lot smarter if they survive Iraq.


I got that line about the youth being the conscience from a PBS documentary about the sixties. There was a bit in ther about how Nixon was going to threaten North VIetnam and Russia witha a nuclear attack. But the demonstrations of NOvember 15, 1970 made him back off.

There is no doubt that our culture is in denial of death. And Not everyone sees the consequences of their actions when it comes to the military.
e-dog is right, the system is rotten
and you are too
a lot longer than sixty years


I was really arguing with Cecil eyelid.
did not mean to hijack your post

Warrior seems a strange term for someone who sits in a secure location and pilots a drone that can kill people.
Last edited by stilltrucking on August 1st, 2007, 8:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by jimboloco » August 1st, 2007, 8:51 am

What impact will the CNN/YouTube Debate have on Campaign 08?
Insignficant. Citizen-created video questions increased the entertainment value, but it was still politics as usual.
(687) 58%


Pathbreaking. Allowing ordinary Americans to participate in a televised forum traditionally dominated by journalists and politicians will change the shape of all debates to come.
(429) 36%
Annoying. Candidate debates should be a mainstream media event. Bring back Wolf Blitzer!
(66) 5%

I voted insignificant, but there was one exception: Mike Gravel. He tells it like it is while the others spin. My favorite part was when Cooper tried to make him back peddle on the soldiers dying in vain position. Did not work. That old bird is tough! Then when the other "media-savvy" candidates had to respond, all they talked about was what a great job the troops are doing. Okay, but that doesn't mean they aren't dying in vain. If the others would not forthrightly agree with Gravel, then they should have been forced to explain just for what noble cause they are dying. It's so ridiculous of them to dodge that question. If you are against the war, it follows that the troops are dying in vain. They play it so safe they come off looking cowardly and fake. This doesn’t appeal to voters.
Posted by DEBORAH 07/31/2007 @ 08:53am
.
http://www.thenation.com/poll/youtube0726
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Post by jimboloco » August 1st, 2007, 8:55 am

It has to mean something? Mean what? Most join for college money. Personal gain, in exchange for an agreement to kill or be killed. High risk, high gain (well, higher than not for folks who can't afford college, with the hopes of getting some kind of career... oh, more personal gain).
eyelidless

these guys are not mercenaries by nature
they are fueled by a number of motivations
but are not as calloussed as you would believe
That's what they agreed to, when they signed up. Largely for selfish reasons. I find it hard to feel much sorrow over the very few who don't actually get that immense financial gain from committing atrocities.
to deprive a person of their basic integrity is the ultimate in dehumanization, and that is what i get from your attitude about the suckers who are inside the us military today


what happens during the process of integration into the military culture depends a lot on the types of assignments that military people experience, and the dangers that are faced are necessarily valued as productive or tragic.

why is there anyone who comes out of the military distraught, if we only go in so serve our own best interests

afterall there are plenty of those types yes
but they do so by rationalizing thhe military mission and therefore suppress the dissent
within

but there are some who debate, dissent, disagree after being involved in the war(s), who come home angry, commit siucide, harm others, become anti-war protesters,
better that they should all be "well adjusted" and go golfing?

so what? they signed up?
enuff said

while i can appreciate an anti-military sentiment, i have to distinguish for myself between an abuse of power and what is potentially acheiveable, a critical usage of military force for peacekeeping, de-escalation, and in cooperation with an intenational community

besides, how are you gonna entice a kid to sign up, even in the best of times, with the best of executives, without incentives to pride, honor, duty to country, and educational incentives,
afterall this is what it should be about

maybe you should join up and find out about the complexity of those who have served

i am sure you could be just as mercenary as anyone
and hope ya dosen't get wasted

i would encourage you to look more deeply
Last edited by jimboloco on August 1st, 2007, 9:55 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Post by stilltrucking » August 1st, 2007, 9:08 am

Pardon me for butting in jimboloco but I was posting the one above while you were posting yours.

As one old zombie to another
I am trying to remember what it was like to be twenty again.
I was very sure of everything.
Sometimes I think eyelid would make a great president. I am so tired of that wishy washy wimp we got now. He has no moral certitude. No moral clarity.
I appologize if I sound condenscending. But I was so sure about somethings when I was you age. But I guess I am not as sure of things as I used to be. I just can't pass judgement on every soldier in the military. Some of them are just young and don't know better. Some if them are just not as smart as you. I am sure a lot of them will be a lot smarter if they survive Iraq.


I got that line about the youth being the conscience from a PBS documentary about the sixties. There was a bit in ther about how Nixon was going to threaten North VIetnam and Russia witha a nuclear attack. But the demonstrations of NOvember 15, 1970 made him back off.
Why did fifty eight thousand soldiers die in Vietnam? I can’t argue with those veterans that felt betrayed.

Warrior seems a strange term for someone who sits in a secure location and pilots a drone that can kill people.

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Post by jimboloco » August 1st, 2007, 9:51 am

it's a good day to die

in shambhala the sacred path of the warrior they teach illuminated compassion
shamatha
am i a warrior?
or wuz i when i carried my bullets in my pocket and flew a hearse?
no more so than a trucker doing mountain passes in a blizzard and has to take a piss but can't stop

no more so than a civil rights worker trying to enlist people to vote

no more so than a single woman who is nine months pregnant and has nada but a slice of courage to go on
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Post by jimboloco » August 1st, 2007, 10:03 am

I appologize if I sound condenscending. But I was so sure about somethings when I was you age. But I guess I am not as sure of things as I used to be. I just can't pass judgement on every soldier in the military. Some of them are just young and don't know better. Some if them are just not as smart as you. I am sure a lot of them will be a lot smarter if they survive Iraq.


it is good to be critical, young padawans
you don't know the power of the dark side
in which i would include the power of absolutism

if someone you believe enlisted on mercenary grounds
into a battle as a gunslinger for a corrupt regime
and got killed, then i could concur with your appraisal that he died doing his thing,
like the private contractors in the security forces, blackwater types, yes

but the capacity for some military active duty and veterans to change, and question, mirrorred by the absolutism of those indoctrinated into the current morass shows me that there is more than mercenary intent on both sides, the former, who show their true motivation by asserting that the ideals and values upon which they wanted to serve were not being met; semi-colon :roll: ; the latter, who show their intransigence because they adhere to a moralistic superiiority ingrained in their disposition to serve authority where it merits their own personal interest.

Tillman's mother, Mary Tillman, who has long suggested that her son was deliberately killed by his comrades, said she is still looking for answers.

"Nothing is going to bring Pat back. It's about justice for Pat and justice for other soldiers. The nation has been deceived," she said. http://wcbstv.com/topstories/topstories ... 12230.html
ae some soldiers mercenary in attitude?
no doubt
they get offerred enlistments as a way to clear up their felony charges
os as a way out of urban gang wars
but they carry the gang war mentality with them
and bring back an extra dose of ferocity intoo their home turfs on their return
bad bews indeed
but not all of them are like this
indeed my stepson wanted to enlist, got nabbed by a narc with some coke, intent to deal, now is in a boot camp prison i n wisconsin
so when he gets out, what then, the impulse to go army will still be there
but he ain't no mercenary
he's just a kid who likes nascar

how do you prove criminal intent?
i'd like to see the neo-cons go down
Last edited by jimboloco on August 1st, 2007, 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by jimboloco » August 1st, 2007, 1:04 pm

twenty year old young man
1997
fell in love
they made a baby
got married
he was in college
a catholic school
faced with 20 thousand dollars in educational debt
joined the national guard
liked it
did disaster relief work,
training exercises
after september 11th, 2001,
re-upped
in 2003 got sent to iraq
his dad got a call from the young man's wife
she was screaming hysterically
the young man was killed

was he mercenary, a murderer?
a bit shallow and calloused to entertain that notion
to know someone personally is to re-humanize him

Senator Byrd just delivered an oration in the senate
he said over and over again that Bush's claims that if we leave or lose in Iraq,
the terrorists will follow us home
Senator Byrd stated over and again and spelled it out
H-O-G-W-A-S-H
he said, why aren't the Iraqi terrorists here right now?
he said none of the 9-11 terrorists were from Iraq
that our real mission is in Afghanistan
and that the presidunce has delivered "a major blow" in diverting our major military mission from there where AlQaida has it's base of training operations into Iraq, which has a 1000 year old history of sectarian violence between the Shihites and Sunni's

what would Senator Byrd say about this topic?
I think he would agree that the American soldiers who have died, been greivously wounded in Iraq, did so in vain. No good has come of this war, none.

Is the young widow benefitting from the accrual of wealth by a mercenary murderer who died in the service of his employer?
How much money did she get for his death?
a social security check if she is lucky.
oh yeah, the government paid for his funeral, she got a flag, honor guard, taps.
that's it?
A real mercenary would expect a lot more than that.
How about $100,000 maybe, as a minimum.

I can not fathom the densities that abound on all sides regarding this issue, oh let's be polite, we might get some shit on our eyeballs. :shock:
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Post by stilltrucking » August 1st, 2007, 1:39 pm

Just karma I suppose
Old farts used to scare me too when I was his age
I hope I die before I get old
the zimmers


<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/zqfFrCUrEbY"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/zqfFrCUrEbY" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

Byrd the old racist
even a broken clock is right twice a day
What ever happened to the domino theory
remember that one
we could not leave Vietnam because ...

I don't know what is going to happen in Iraq in 2009
Will it be any worse?

But I know that Bush and Cheney will blame the democrats
We were winning the war until the surrender monkeys took over.

Did you see the op ed peace in the Washington post
"the war we just might win."
Bush loved it
sent copies to all his friends

where is judith miller when we need her

the surge is now a counter offensive.

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Post by jimboloco » August 1st, 2007, 2:04 pm

they got baskin-robbins in hanoi, man.

do those workers receive a living wage?
mebbe they get health care, retirement pension from the govt
but they don't own the franchise collectively, be willing to bet
some retired beaurocrat with money invested has got it down.

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Gravel says the Vietnam War was in vain because you can buy a Baskin-Robbins ice cream cone in Hanoi. Ho Ho Ho Chi mint. Let’s see, 55,000 American lives divided by 31 flavors...

Wait, doesn’t that mean we won? Otherwise, Baskin-Robbins here would have only one flavor,
rice.
nice video wanna sent it to my mamma

too bad i cain't sing

it would be interesting to learn about senatoor byrd's evolution
i love seeing him standing there in the senate chamber
he handwrites his notes in large capital letters
you can see then as he turns them over and places them down at the side of the podium

sometimes he has to wait for the thought to transmit into speech
but he flows with absolute clarity
it is a special vision i will remember
a truly great man
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Post by jimboloco » August 1st, 2007, 2:16 pm

yes have thought about that as well
what if we win
also have heard that
the shihite militias and the sunni militias are prepping
for the true civil wr that is surely coming upon our sullied exit
and i believe that is what will come to pass
what about the dissappeared weapons sent to the iraqi police and army,
man,
the iraq civil war is waiting in the wings
and we had better get out of the fucking way

eyeliddness
i appreciate your injection into the original question
it opened up and challenged
i just don't like ny kind of dehumanising prospect
it's bad enuf allready

the real mercenaries are the culprets who assigned us into iraq
they are also the ones with ities to the bidnesses that are sucking down dollars

and who pays the cost?
the american taxpayer
our infrastructure
and the folks in the military
who are not paid enough to call themselves mercenary
especially the line troops

interesting concept
it applies to the neo-cons
the generals and others of rank who want power and reward
but it is rare to see a high ranking politician of officer killed in a combat zooooonnnnneeeeeee


a lady in my taichi class is a retired nurse midwife
was in kabul when the ruskies came
went back under the un occupation there
i call her a hero
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