Are our soldiers fighting and dying in Iraq in vain?

[hester_prynne]

I've been mulling over the question as to whether or not I think that our dear soldiers in Iraq are "fighting and dying in vain?" It seems like this is a very touchy question, because if you say you do believe their fight, and deaths, are in vain it's like you've insulted God and could get into big trouble or something. On the other hand, if you say you don't think that the deaths are in vain, you are somehow, in favor of the war!
I thought it was pretty interesting on the YOUTUBE debate when the candidates were asked this question; interesting to see them sort of squirm out their answers. But what Mike Gravelle said, really got me to thinking. He said that "of course the deaths are in vain", and he added "just look at the baskin robbins now in vietnam.." at which time they cut him off. But in thinking about his remark, it made me realize, hey, yeah, what about that?
I mean, how do we justify that our soldiers are not fighting in vain, when at the same time the bushco folks want very much to privatize the Iraqi's oil for the big oil corporations to profit from? I mean, doesn't this in itself make it rather blatent that our soldiers are fighting and dying in vain?
Dying for big oil companies and profits under a guise of fighting terrorism?
I can't stop thinking about this! I am very troubled by it.
I don't want our soldiers fighting for oil, I thought they were fighting against terrorism which, we all know, has gotten worse!
I feel like we are being manipulated into a thought process that is rank with denial. I hate to think that our beloved soldiers are being used by this Government and that we the people are being stifled from saying what we know, therefore allowing it to happen. I want our soldiers out of there now.NOW. This administration is worse than I ever imagined they could be. And we let it go on. It's like watching murder!
Your thoughts are appreciated. I feel like I am so naive and still somewhat confused.
I sure am voting for Gravelle. At least he tells the truth, fucked up and scary as it is at this point.

H

[Artguy]

All wars are in vain...almost 100 years ago we had the war to end all wars....

[stilltrucking]

I think the only good war was the american revolutionary war. If not for that one we would all be Canadians and have national health insurance. god forbid.

I've been mulling over the question as to whether or not I think that our dear soldiers in Iraq are "fighting and dying in vain?"

Are you really mulling that over theda?

[stilltrucking]

I was about twelve the summer of the peace conference in Paris to end the Korean war. But before they could begin discussing the terms for the truce they had to decide on what kind of table to sit at. The negotiations went on for weeks it seemed, not about how to end the war but on what shape the table should be in the meeting room. Round or square? And the newspapers were full of articles about how the orientials had no respect for human life. They were willing to let their soldiers die while they quibbled about the shape of the table. Of course the US negotiators were quibbling too. BUt nobody mentioned that. I think something of the same happened during the peace talks to end the Vietnam war.



Lady Byrd died and the flags flew at half mast. Everyday soldiers are killed in Iraq but no one lowers a flag to half mast.

I don't mull anymore Theda. I despair. I don't think they died in vain. I think they are sacrificed to God and country. It makes me want to believe in

this god






I suppose I am sounding irreverent about the death of so many soldiers and innocent Iraqis. I wish I could find some comfort for the families of the fallen. But it just seems like a tragedy to me.

We lost Davy in the Korean war, And I still don't know what for, don't matter anymore. ...
"~john prine

Have you ever seen the movie The Balcony with peter Falk? Based on the Genet play. Falk gives a great speech about patriotism and our sacred bullshit. I am crazy Hester. I suppose I smoked too much pot according to the latest research. But I am sober as a fucking judge these days. Clarence Thomas got nothing on me.

Hillary calls Obama naive. She voted for the war when 70 percent of the American people were for it. But now seventy percent of the American people are against it she is against it too. I like Gravelle too but I don’t think he will get the nomination. If he does I would be happy to vote for him. As much as I would like to see a woman president I wish it was Barbara Boxer running but I would vote for Hillary if I have to.. No doubt about her patriotism, she voted for the anti flag-burning bill.

Something Lincolnesque about Obama. Maybe because he is tall, skinny , ugly and from Illinois. He made a good point about Hillary being naïve for voting for Bush’s war. I think he would be the strongest candidate. And he has better hair than Edwards. And Obama does not seem to be a man that would be swift boated.

sorry about the political ramble.

[eyelidlessness]

Warning: This post is full of snark and sarcasm. No offense is intended. If you plan to take personal offense (or any other kind?), kindly ignore me.

First and foremost... I have soldiers? If I do, I'm fairly certain they're not fighting and dying in Iraq. But now that I know I have soldiers, I might send them to Iraq to eject the US military. Those fuckers are causing no end of trouble over there!

I've been mulling over the question as to whether or not I think that our dear soldiers in Iraq are "fighting and dying in vain?" It seems like this is a very touchy question, because if you say you do believe their fight, and deaths, are in vain it's like you've insulted God and could get into big trouble or something. On the other hand, if you say you don't think that the deaths are in vain, you are somehow, in favor of the war!

From the sound of it, you're not mulling at all, you've made up your mind, and you're afraid to face the consequences—not only the consequences of saying the unutterable, also the consequences of the fact that you might be right. That's understandable, but it doesn't do anyone any good to refuse to speak truth.

Are they fighting and dying in vain? I don't know, what's their purpose? My understanding is that a few folks joined because they hate rag heads; a few more joined because they really believe in what they're doing, wrong though they happen to be; and the vast majority joined for economic reasons—college money, forgiven debt, that sort of thing—or other manner of personal gain—expunged criminal record. Let's be clear: the vast majority of US soldiers signed a contract agreeing to kill strangers, and to expose themselves to extreme risk, for personal gain. That fits the definition of gambler. It also fits the definition of sociopath.

Aside from the obvious comment that such a thing isn't honorable or worthy of any more sympathy than what a person would afford to a local drug racketeer (who likely makes the same sacrifices a US soldier does, and likely for the same reasons, and I'm not saying they're undeserving of any sympathy at all, but I think this evokes a totally different visceral response in most Americans, and possibly opens up the imagination to other ways of expressing sympathy than throwing a parade for mass murderers)... no, given the fact that their success rate (as gamblers) is relatively high (as compared to the nearly 1 million Iraqis who've been slain since the 2003 invasion), I don't think they're dying or fighting in vain... Perhaps we shouldn't be cheering their success, though.

I don't want our soldiers fighting for oil, I thought they were fighting against terrorism which, we all know, has gotten worse!

As far as US soldiers go, I'd settle for them refusing to participate in terrorism.

I feel like we are being manipulated into a thought process that is rank with denial. I hate to think that our beloved soldiers are being used by this Government and that we the people are being stifled from saying what we know, therefore allowing it to happen.

Well, not to be rude, but who else will soldiers be used by if not the government? They are, quite literally, part of the government security apparatus. If not to enforce the government's interests—whatever those might be—why would the military exist?

And we let it go on. It's like watching murder!

Well, it is watching murder. Mass murder.

The most obvious solution is to stop letting it go on. I get the impression you're facing that realization, so I'll try to avoid coming across as condescending with the point, but... we don't have to do as the powers that be say or expect.

[hester_prynne]

Under the radar is where I am gravitating. The more I understand the less I want to be involved.

I think the whole political scene is embarassingly bizarre.

They refer to themselves as "High Level People".?
I just don't get that. It turns me right off.

I gotta hold steady here, hang on to my employability. I like to make waves, but i've learned the hard way that you lose alot when you do.

Yeah maybe i'm running off like a lost train here, but I want to say that my avoidance is not without powerful sorrow. I truly deplore what is happening, more so that there is not a safe way to do something about it.

H

[eyelidlessness]

Under the radar is where I am gravitating. The more I understand the less I want to be involved.

I think the whole political scene is embarassingly bizarre.

They refer to themselves as "High Level People".?
I just don't get that. It turns me right off.

Well, no worries there. Those guys aren't the solution, they're the problem. You don't want to get involved with them.

I gotta hold steady here, hang on to my employability. I like to make waves, but i've learned the hard way that you lose alot when you do.

Yeah maybe i'm running off like a lost train here, but I want to say that my avoidance is not without powerful sorrow. I truly deplore what is happening, more so that there is not a safe way to do something about it.

Believe me, I understand the struggle, I've been doing it for years myself. But frankly, there is not a safe way, and there never will be. People die trying to change the way things are. That's the nature of "the enemy", and no amount of hiding from them will change that.

It just offsets the suffering, even more, onto countless anonymous others. And it's not going away.

Ask an Iraqi what they think about our safety.

[hester_prynne]

I know, I know, I KNOW!

I'm pulling my hair out. I often dream of buying an island, making it into a commune, and suceding from the union.
h

[eyelidlessness]

Please don't take this the wrong way, I mean this kindly and respectfully.

What would that accomplish, in terms of halting the atrocities we're discussing?

[hester_prynne]

Oh heck, I'm not taking it in the wrong way at all, really, I totally agree with what you are saying, it's just hard, and you said that too.
Really, I appreciate a challenge to my resistance in this instance.
I don't know if I have it in me to just shutup.
There is also a degree of relief in hearing someone else speak this truth too. Nasty as it is....
I thank you for that.

H

[jimboloco]

Yeah I heard Senator Gravel and am grateful that he said so, that was enormous

look, they say you sign a contract when you take the oath of enlistment
however commissioned officers are allowed to tender their resignations, something that enlisted personnel can not do, whatever

but the density is absurd
I was recently asked by a doctor at work, "they know that they are getting into dangerous situations when they sign up, right?"

i could've strangled him right there, what stupidity, totally dense
so instead i told him, "it has got to mean something"

before the iraq war started i heard a doctor telling another doctor, "i was in thhe military and i know they know more than we do"
i should've grabbed him by the collar of his white coat and shook him and told him that he should put his money where his mouth was, i'd bet him a thousand bucke that there were no wmd's in iraq, chrizt

it has to be right
when the military is miss-used, employed without regard for the sanctity of the soldiers' lives, (despite what asshole bushwhacker says, how he feels for the fallen troops), when we are engaged in a combative situation that is illegal, based upon false premises, then the resulting deaths and traumatic injuries are unjustified, except by the moronic leadership and those in denial about the tragic absurdity of these occurances.

we call it getting wasted, which means just that, beyond getting killed, being killed for erroneous reasons

i am tuned into hillarious, she says that chavez is an enemy, she says that obama is naive
fuck her
she is bush-cheney light
i hope she loses in iowa and nh
and south sarolina

but she is still light years removed from the rabid corruption iof this present regime

soldiers sign up for a variety of reasons
abventure, challenge, the change to grow, a desire to serve,
no bad reasons, really
and we owe it to the military, such as it is, to employ them in appropriate ways

as far as laying low, doing the same
ptsd is a lifetime thing
i need to keep my job
depression is always at bay
i have angry fantasies several times a day
but i catch myself, when i shudder and clench my muscles, it becomes more conscious, and i shake it off
i am filled with anger and darkness
so i go into the dark as a refuge
and make the anger my friend
and know that my contempt for light-filled superficiality is alive and well

what're ya gonna do?

democracy now today has a show about the parents of an iraqi marine vet who committed suicide in '04. the va diagnosed his problem as alcohol and resultant mood changes, absurd, he drank because his spirit was shattered
why? because no matter how tough the marines trained him to be, he could not justify the killings he saw and participated in,
so he eventually hanged himself

now the parents are suing the va
if any fucking body ought to know about the classic signs of ptsd, it should be the v fucking a
i mean, when are we gonna shape up?

when we go into a war based upon lies, manipulated consent, we create a chain of events with long lasting implications

yes yes yes they were fucking wasted
a millions times yes yes yes

if i give my life for something noble, it is ok within the realm of things
but i am not about to take a fucking bullet for the likes of some elitist millionaire neo-con with his political economic agenda, fuck him

[jimboloco]

you can join a company that is engaged in some non-military activity and be exposed to abuse

the same human qualities apply

my marine friend is coming to orlando for a reunion with his nam buddies
he wants to see me
he runs around the country a single man
grown daughter
has a disability pension for ptsd
makes absurd in-your-face bumperstickers anti-republickin
has written a memoir of the years surrounding his nam experience
all good
but hey
do i want to spend time with him?
i don't know
i am so tired
all the fucking time
christ all mighty
and i would never wamma rejoin the military group i served with in nam
as far as anti-war veterans groups go,
the intensity is too much
i am walking wasted
the nam wall

the civil rights memorial

which ones died in vain? vietnam veterans or civil rights activists

the ones who died fighting for a mistake , a tragic abuse of power, were the vietnam veterans
i would say that the ones who died fighting for humane enlightenment were the civil rights activists

and we know that the nam vets died in vain, notbecause we "lost" the war, but because there never should have been that war in the first place; also because the american people did not learn from that war and try to be critical of the iraq war as it was building up;

iraq war dead were bushwhacked, died in vain
more will die
more will commit suicide
more will commit violent crimes at home
more will be killed in violent crimes at home
and we will never fucking learn\until it gets so bad that we have a fucking revolution
a sea change

thanks for the topic hester
i gotta go see my zen therapissed

smoked some pot yesterday with my stepson
drank 1/2 bottle of some stout brewed in some abbey
don't feel so hot

i was set up to be wasted and in vain
so i survived just to piss them off

[eyelidlessness]

but the density is absurd
I was recently asked by a doctor at work, "they know that they are getting into dangerous situations when they sign up, right?"

i could've strangled him right there, what stupidity, totally dense
so instead i told him, "it has got to mean something"

But what's dense? It's true, right? I mean, any intelligent person would know that joining the military is dangerous, and might require them to kill or be killed. And I refuse to believe that most soldiers aren't at least moderately intelligent.

It has to mean something? Mean what? Most join for college money. Personal gain, in exchange for an agreement to kill or be killed. High risk, high gain (well, higher than not for folks who can't afford college, with the hopes of getting some kind of career... oh, more personal gain).

it has to be right
when the military is miss-used, employed without regard for the sanctity of the soldiers' lives, (despite what asshole bushwhacker says, how he feels for the fallen troops), when we are engaged in a combative situation that is illegal, based upon false premises, then the resulting deaths and traumatic injuries are unjustified, except by the moronic leadership and those in denial about the tragic absurdity of these occurances.

we call it getting wasted, which means just that, beyond getting killed, being killed for erroneous reasons

That's what they agreed to, when they signed up. Largely for selfish reasons. I find it hard to feel much sorrow over the very few who don't actually get that immense financial gain from committing atrocities.

soldiers sign up for a variety of reasons
abventure, challenge, the change to grow, a desire to serve,
no bad reasons, really

Uh? Besides the vast majority, who consider college money a valid justification for killing innocent strangers half a world away, there are also many who are nazis who just want to slaughter rag heads. And yes, there are some with "good" intentions, but they're an extreme minority. And they're wrong.

and we owe it to the military, such as it is, to employ them in appropriate ways

I don't owe anything to the military. I don't want the benefits I do get from them, and I don't want the consequences of their existence. As far as I'm concerned, the best scenario I can imagine is their continued military failure until a stalemate is forced and the US goes back to a second rate power. Maybe then, Americans will get off their lazy asses and stop the raging half century of atrocities that was initiated here when Columbus landed.

democracy now today has a show about the parents of an iraqi marine vet who committed suicide in '04. the va diagnosed his problem as alcohol and resultant mood changes, absurd, he drank because his spirit was shattered
why? because no matter how tough the marines trained him to be, he could not justify the killings he saw and participated in,
so he eventually hanged himself

Now he might be on to something. I don't know how the majority of soldiers live with the atrocities they've committed. This man should be a lesson to people thinking of joining: you will be ordered to commit crimes against humanity, and you will not be so dehumanized as to accept it, and you might well not be able to go on with the knowledge of what you'd done.

if i give my life for something noble, it is ok within the realm of things
but i am not about to take a fucking bullet for the likes of some elitist millionaire neo-con with his political economic agenda, fuck him

Apparently quite a lot of other people are willing to do that, and much more. I don't see why we should be fawning over them. They're criminals.

[hester_prynne]

It's not easy for me to look through the conditioned veil. It is the deepest disappointment of all, to know that I have believed all these delusions of grandeur.
But i have to say that jimbo and eyelidlessness, what you both say, I know it is right in my gut. Seeing is believing. Sure, they sign people up with all kinds of righteous promises, promises that block them from the reality that they are signing up to kill, signing up to be legal murderers, to "protect our country from terrorists", when the truth is, it's to promote American capital interests, i.e. privitizing, (stealing), iraq's oil, stealing from people, just like we did with Native Americans, we stole their country and it's assets from them. This is the same identical thing. Why? Because Americans are so deluded that they think they are better? That it's America's duty to control and run the show?
This is hard stuff for me to grasp, like waking up into a nightmare.
The more awake I become, the more outrage and frustration I feel.
H

[mtmynd]

There's not an army in the world that does not rely on the warrior class. The warriors know that death is a reality when engaged in wars. That won't change. It's historically ingrained in mankind's psyche. The warrior is celebrated in books and movies. It's a slice of human reality.