The post nation-state world

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Non Sum

The post nation-state world

Post by Non Sum » March 7th, 2010, 1:04 pm

The post nation-state world is coming, and the maketplace is its best model.

Two major ongoing, seemingly contrary, trends in government today are: decentralizing with increasing local & regional autonomy, and unification into larger political/trade, blocks. Both of these movements are working towards the dismantling of the current nation-state system. The World Wide Web too is serving to further break down the divisive nationalistic walls, just as surely as the walls that once preserved the city-states of old.

We here in the US don’t have to look far to witness the how costly, ineffective, and destructive (to life and treasure), 18th century political systems have become. This is not to say that nothing can be salvaged from the wreckage; in particular, a constitution as absolute king – guaranteeing the inalienable rights of all the world’s citizens.

A democracy too, for all its human failings, has no viable alternative. But a democracy does not require the heavy governmental apparatus of chief executives, parliaments, immense bureaucracies, and multiple marble buildings. We vote every day in the market place without representatives operating as our go-betweens.

This is the future world marketplace model I foresee, one replacing all former ‘ruler-representative’ authoritarian models with society (‘an organized group with common interests’) itself ruling itself via ‘bid –offer’ negotiation. Society is not just a single grouping, but is in fact a grouping of groups within groups, many of which overlap, as well as stand directly (or tangentially) opposed to each other in their goals and functions.

I recently remarked in another thread the essential role played by groups organized predominantly for the purpose of making a profit, (i.e. generating products & services in the greater service of creating community wealth). This did not mean that we should turn over our leadership to ‘Amalgamated Meatball Inc.’ But rather, that private industry can, and does, provide for all our human needs at auction prices, with no tax applied.

A world united under one constitution brings an end to wars between nations. A free enterprise capitalist economy, sans a parasitic ruler system, brings an end to taxes, and their slight-of-hand illusion that governments provide some things for free. It would be an end to currency inflation forever. There is no service, product, or resource that cannot be provided by for profit groups. This would include labor unions competing, like any other essential resource, in a free and fair marketplace.

That's my target opinion. All shots are welcome. 8)

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Post by stilltrucking » March 7th, 2010, 2:20 pm

Well you know me Mister Non Sum.
I am one of those jerks who...

The post nation-state world is coming, and the maketplace is its best model.
Sounds so twentieth century to me compadre.

Poor Alan Greenspan.
He lost face
He lost faith
In the marketplace.
Last edited by stilltrucking on March 7th, 2010, 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by hester_prynne » March 7th, 2010, 4:48 pm

"A world united under one constitution brings an end to wars between nations"

You sound as starry eyed as me NS.
A world under one constitution does not rule out wars within nations.
And unfairness within societies when it comes to who gets the opportunities and who doesn't.
And hunger.....
And that's what i'm talkin about.....

H 8)
"I am a victim of society, and, an entertainer"........DW

Non Sum

Post by Non Sum » March 7th, 2010, 6:28 pm

Hi ST: Poor Alan Greenspan.
He lost face
He lost faith
In the marketplace.

NS: Odd that you fault the marketplace by the failings of the Fed. Greenspan talked the free market talk, but he walked the regulatory walk (e.g. setting artifically low interest rates for far too long). Free markets have no greater enemy than central banks' controlling both money supply and the cost of money.

Hi HP: You sound as starry eyed as me NS.

John Lennon: "You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one."

HP: A world under one constitution does not rule out wars within nations.

NS: What "nations"?
'Insurrections' will be stopped a lot quicker:
1. without sympathetic nations aiding and abetting,
2. with the overwhelming force of a world wide web of police forces,
3. without the temptation (or necessity) of positions of rulership to usurp.

HP: And unfairness within societies when it comes to who gets the opportunities and who doesn't.

NS: An increasingly homogenized (color, gender, etc., Blind) world can only be facilitated with the removal of national walls.

HP: And hunger.....

NS: The 'north-south' divide between rich and poor nations will fall down all the faster along with the nationalist walls.
I also believe that a basic needs safety net will (must) be provided, chiefly on the community level, to insure social stability. Today, the first world nations almost universally provide healthcare, food, and shelter for those without. Just imagine the combined national budgets expended on the wastes of government and war today, and think how much productive good could be done if that money had never been subtracted from the economy.

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Post by stilltrucking » March 7th, 2010, 7:15 pm

So you say.
Enjoy

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Post by mtmynd » March 7th, 2010, 8:29 pm

I didn't know you had such a revolutionary mind, NS. :)

How much sleep did you lose coming up with this?

It reminds me of something you said not that long ago:

So, you are after an entirely new (utopian?) economic system?


My 'new' economic system versus your Utopian scenario both would require, at the very best a transitional shift that would favor who? the majority? or should the minority of believers have any say-so? (merely questions I've been posed...;))

Government is a Nation's father-figure, one who at best is "fatherly", i.e. a kind, understanding, knowledgeable and wise... while on the other hand there are fathers who are dominating, cruel, unjust and miserable souls. But we don't throw out fatherhood because of those rotten bastards, do we?

What you seem to be imagining is a beneficent and fair worldly system that needs no supervision, no third party oversight to make sure laws run accordingly, and nobody looking over it's shoulders making sure everything is legal, fair, and equitable. It seems to me you're placing too much trust that a monetary system such as you envision to be a self-governing, honest and fair, allowing a 100% free market world take care of all the needs everyone. Utopia? I think so.

Not to say either my two cents or your own won't have some merit long after we've surrendered out bodies and minds to the great recycling bin...
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Non Sum

Post by Non Sum » March 7th, 2010, 11:25 pm

Bye ST: So you say.

NS: Says you! :)

Hi
MT: I didn't know you had such a revolutionary mind, NS.

NS: It revolves in its inexorably revolting way. Not much can be done about it, least of all by me. :?

MT: How much sleep did you lose coming up with this?

NS: Skipped today’s nap, and changed the tractor’s oil instead; leaving room for ruminations from within an otherwise empty head.

MT: It reminds me of something you said not that long ago:

NS: Be careful, this is a family site.

MT (quoting some genius): “So, you are after an entirely new (utopian?) economic system?”

NS: Alright. So you’ve caught me. It was you who planted the utopian seed. Now, aren’t you ashamed of what you’ve started?

MT: My 'new' economic system versus your Utopian scenario both would require, at the very best a transitional shift

Ns: As my first paragraph suggests, the transition is already well along. Yes, transitions can be disruptive, but what is the alternative when old worlds are collapsing? Having no bright visions to replace it? That has already been tried with the fall of Rome. The results were aptly called the ‘dark ages.’

MT: that would favor who? the majority? or should the minority of believers have any say-so? (merely questions I've been posed.

NS: The question makes the erroneous assumption that transitions can be as planned as the systems they transit between, when in fact they never are planned for. The former system’s sun sets, as must we all enter our twilight, and ending. And from yesterday’s ashes a new day’s plan dawns.

MT: But we don't throw out fatherhood because of those rotten bastards, do we?

NS: Yes, we do bring our term of subjection to ‘fatherhood’ to an end, be our parent kindly or bastardly. “Dad’s” rule ends when our independence begins. For ages the cry was, “the king is dead; long live the (new) king.” But, the 17th & 18th centuries didn’t just kill the king. They killed the throne.

MT: What you seem to be imagining is a beneficent and fair worldly system that needs no supervision, no third party oversight to make sure laws run accordingly,

NS: Laws, courts, and enforcement authority can, and do, exist without kings and countries. Communities, businesses, often hire private security forces to police its standards of behavior without first installing a government superstructure. Private courts and arbitration are increasingly common. Prisons too are often run as a for profit business.

MT: It seems to me you're placing too much trust that a monetary system such as you envision to be a self-governing, honest and fair, allowing a 100% free market world take care of all the needs everyone.

NS: We’ve already covered the necessity for laws and regulation in all human endeavors, including markets. I’ve said nothing favoring anarchy, nor could a society, or its business, survive without (civil & criminal) laws. But, a legal system is simply trained people doing an important job for personal profit. Whether they are hired by rulers, or privately contracted by the community they are to serve, the task remains the same.

Thanks, for your input, all you inputting persons!

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Post by hester_prynne » March 8th, 2010, 1:54 am

"NS: What "nations"?
'Insurrections' will be stopped a lot quicker:
1. without sympathetic nations aiding and abetting,
2. with the overwhelming force of a world wide web of police forces,
3. without the temptation (or necessity) of positions of rulership to usurp"

Starry starry eyes! Paint your castles.....
Insurrections will still be numerous and big business.
Sympathetic factions will arise and abet.
Creating the need for a world wide web of police forces, (a scary idea),
Temptation and or necessity of positions of rulership to usurp will exist.
I mean, why wouldn't it?
H 8)
"I am a victim of society, and, an entertainer"........DW

Non Sum

Post by Non Sum » March 8th, 2010, 9:57 am

Hi Hes,
Seattle is one of my favorite cities. I lived in Capital Hill during the mid sixties; selling magazine subscriptions door to door. I doubt it is the same city I used to slosh through in my never dry shoes. I still have webs grown betwixt my toes from those exhilarating days.

HP: Paint your castles..

NS: Do castles require painting? Don’t they use aluminum siding?
Actually, I think the trend (lower castle floors) is already in active construction, as supported in my first paragraph.

HP: Insurrections will still be numerous and big business.

NS: “Big business,” all business, will flourish with parasitic Gov’s money & market manipulation off of its back. What is good for business is good for the entire economy. Where did you think the money came from?

Why do you assume insurrections will be “numerous”?

HP: Creating the need for a world wide web of police forces, (a scary idea),

NS: There already are police forces spanning the entire globe. What changes is that they will now be able to work cooperatively. This threatens criminals intent on evasion, and should reassure the law-abiding, intent on criminal apprehension. Since it “scares” you, I have to assume that you are a … :wink:

HP: Temptation and or necessity of positions of rulership to usurp will exist.
I mean, why wouldn't it?

NS: You cannot usurp a position that does not exist, might be one reason for a decline in ‘surp-age’.

NS (Never SurpsSoup)

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Post by mtmynd » March 8th, 2010, 10:45 am

NS: But, a legal system is simply trained people doing an important job for personal profit. Whether they are hired by rulers, or privately contracted by the community they are to serve, the task remains the same.

Nyet, amigo... nice bit of fiction here but hardly more than that.

True a legal system is trained people doing a job. But when you have trained people doing a job for a private individual, company, corporation, etc., is taking that one legal system and using it for one exclusive purpose: to defend that single entity that is paying for it. (Re: Blackwater? Serving George W. Bush & Co. over that of our country, at taxpayers expense, btw)

What I wrote, "Government is a Nation's father-figure, one who at best is "fatherly", i.e. a kind, understanding, knowledgeable and wise...", may be just as Utopian as your own scenario you've suggested here. You, as many others, feel governments have either become too expensive or simply too intrusive to be of any value to people. You believe by doing away with government and allowing a free market to run the world would be the ultimate solution... to every capitalist's dream. As for myself, I will stand behind a Political ideal over an Economic ideal, even tho they are both reliant on capital. Why? Any government that values the needs and wants of it's citizenry is an assembly of people with a far more united goal than any Corporation, etc., could ever have., which is simply financial profit.

For any Corp. etc. to feel they could do a far better job than a fully competent and well-functioning government is a Corp, etc. to be suspicious of. True, our current government is not that competent nor as well-functioning as it should/could be. You have no disagreement with me on that. But I see the problem with that lying in the hands of the very same Corp., etc. you have faith in.

If you actually believe our own Government has not been corrupted and robbed blind by the power of Big Business, I don't think you are seeing with the same vision I have. (who amongst us is wearing rose-colored glasses?). If (and when) we have a more literate and awakened society that knows and cares about their lives (personal and societal), people who embrace the same simple values as the Founding Fathers had written... this would go a long, long ways to voting into office people of wisdom, integrity and honesty... people who share the same values of the Constitution and it's Bill of Rights... the same people who place value on people rather than corruption. Many feel that alone is a fantasy that will never happen. Being the idealist I am, I will forever keep that vision, that same brilliant idea first written about 234 years ago, as the only reasonable, logical and doable goal for any and all societies to attain. (if that ain't idealism...:))

Our two opposing views clash, sure enough! Both are ideals... both in search of answers for a better future, and both given thought to in the very uncertain times we are living in. That alone, to me, shows we are both concerned.
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Non Sum

Post by Non Sum » March 8th, 2010, 4:11 pm

Hi
MT: when you have trained people doing a job for a private individual, company, corporation, etc., is taking that one legal system and using it for one exclusive purpose: to defend that single entity that is paying for it.

NS: True. And, who is the contracting party in this hypothesized instance? The community at-large contracts with one, or several, private legal services business(es). If that contract is poorly performed, it gets cancelled, and bids are opened for another provider. Try doing that with a government. :roll:

I get the impression that you believe me to be suggesting some super corp. to replace our present masters, some ‘CEO of the Earth’(?). My second paragraph (in the topic post) endorses the idea of a democracy, but would discard the present fiction of our present “representative” democracy. I’m looking to end all overlords, by whatever title you may give them.

Think of your city’s market place. When you go out to shop for goods, or services, you have several choices from whom to directly buy from. Do you require leaders to decide what you want, and to then make these purchases for you? Would a set of intervening leaders make your purchases cheaper?

MT: I will stand behind a Political ideal over an Economic ideal,

NS: Mine too is a “political ideal.” A direct democracy that is actually “of, and bye” the people, but is Not run by a powerful someone else “for” the people. The role of the corporations would be to simply provide the goods and services to individuals, and groups, that contract for them. There won’t be any term limits for these businesses, since ‘election day’ is any day that a contract is not being met.

MT: For any Corp. etc. to feel they could do a far better job than a fully competent and well-functioning government is a Corp, etc. to be suspicious of. True, our current government is not that competent nor as well-functioning

NS: Never has been. No government I know of is competent and well-functioning. Nor is every business run well. But, when you hire a business you can as easily fire a poorly run business, even sue a business for non-performance, and then shop up another.

MT: If you actually believe our own Government has not been corrupted and robbed blind by the power of Big Business, I don't think you are seeing with the same vision I have.

NS: All this tells me is that mixing power and profits makes for corruption. Not exactly news. You blame the businesses for their profit motive. I blame power, since power eventually always corrupts. Remove businesses from the equation, and you have the raw power of socialism (N. Korea) or national socialism (NAZI’s). But, remove power, and you have a sunny day at the mall.

MT: Being the idealist I am, I will forever keep that vision, that same brilliant idea first written about 234 years ago,

NS: And, you don’t think “234 years” is long enough to give it a fair test??? Where it went wrong is obvious to me. It takes power from the many and puts it into the hands of a few. And, since power corrupts, those few are often corrupted, with their loyalties going to their party, sponsors, or pocket. The ‘people’ just buy whatever wool is pulled over their eyes, as you yourself have constantly indicated.

MT: shows we are both concerned.

NS: I’ve no real concern. To me the search for a better design of anything is interesting, and there certainly is plenty of room for improvement for the sorry state of the world’s states today. The US is not the world’s solution, but rather adds to its problems, as well as the problems of the US’s own deluded citizenry. Unlike yourself, I am philosophically a ‘hard determinist.’ What will be, will inevitably be; and will be both good and bad.

” What method have you for the government of the world?"
"Let your mind find its enjoyment in pure simplicity; blend yourself with the primary ether in idle indifference; allow all things to take their natural course; admit no personal or selfish
consideration; do this and the world will be governed."
(Chuang tse, Taoism’s co-founder)

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Post by mtmynd » March 8th, 2010, 5:33 pm

G'day, NS.

If government is the main irritant for 'Corp., etc' (let your mind find its enjoyment in pure simplicity), why have these very Corporations spent so much money in 'buying government influence' (admit no personal or selfish consideration), when it would be cheaper for those same entities to use that money on more production, improved wages and better health programs for their employees (Let your mind find its enjoyment in pure simplicity). If they squandered not a dime on these efforts to manipulate government on their behalf, (allow all things to take their natural course), government could do the job intended of them without 'Corp., etc'. interference and better serve the People as elected to do (do this and the world will be governed).

If government is booted out of it's responsibility to govern, substituting a Corporate, etc., entity in it's place would do little to eliminate a government, but only change the tiger's stripes.
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Post by Arcadia » March 8th, 2010, 9:46 pm

But a democracy does not require the heavy governmental apparatus of chief executives, parliaments, immense bureaucracies, and multiple marble buildings. ...yeah, maybe! (specially the heavy governmental apparatus, the immense burocracias and the multiple marble buildings parts :lol: ). I´ve read and listened two things between last week and today -from very diverse sources- that I enjoyed in relation with democracies and nations. See and listen if you want! :wink: :

http://www.pagina12.com.ar/diario/dialo ... 03-08.html

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/97cGGxdi1BQ&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/97cGGxdi1BQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Non Sum

Post by Non Sum » March 8th, 2010, 10:28 pm

Hey, M(ammoth)T(usks),
Your application of Chuang’s quote to the practices of others is inapt. It was applied only as a response to your addressing “We,” i.e. ‘me and thee.’
RE:MT: “shows we are both concerned.”

It is ‘I’ who take this Taoist perspective, not corp, Gov, or you.

MT: why have these very Corporations spent so much money in 'buying government influence'

NS: Why does a honey pot draw flies? If you sold toilet seats, and you heard that Gov was paying $500 per, you’d expend no money or effort to gain the contract?

MT: … it would be cheaper for those same entities to use that money on more production, improved wages and better health programs for their employees

NS: Businesses don’t labor in hopes of increasing “production, wages, or give-away programs.” Those things are called, “operation costs.” They labor in order to gain a return that exceeds their costs, i.e. a profit. If my production costs are $5.00 per toilet seat, and I can wholesale them at $7.00, I’ve made a 40% per item profit. That is, if I can sell enough to make it consistently worth my while. But, pay me $500 per seat (9900% profit each), at a nationwide volume, and I’ll be sitting pretty. Gov money is like manna from heaven, well worth chasing after.

MT: If they squandered not a dime on these efforts to manipulate government on their behalf, government could do the job intended of them without 'Corp., etc'. interference and better serve the People

NS: A government takes in other people’s money, and spends it as if it were other people’s money. All to the tune of tens of trillions of dollars in the US’s case. You expect anyone with something to sell to not be interested in getting a piece of that action? Get real.

Not just purchases, but every law, or regulation, which gets passed, or repealed, affects someone’s pocket and rights. No one, not even you, wants to just lie there and let a governmental tree fall on them. Pressure is brought in its myriad forms, including money, to avoid falling trees, and to catch falling stars. You don’t wonder why people praise/bribe God, from whom all blessing flow, as well as all sorts of catastrophes. Why then do you marvel at the importuning crowds that gather around kings?

Seeking after power, profit, or favor, is human nature. It would be foolish to fault it, or attempt to change it. What you must do is remove the opportunity for the abuses that governmental power creates by its very presence.

”The Taoist, does not wear himself out by useless conflict with the unchangeable laws of existence; nor does he struggle to amend the unalterable tendencies of his own nature. (Chuang tse)

MT: If government is booted out of it's responsibility to govern, substituting a Corporate, etc., entity in its place would do little to eliminate a government, but only change the tiger's stripes.

NS: I couldn’t agree more. That is why I’ve gone to such pains to explain to you that is Not what I am advocating. Please reread, if you’ve already read, my last post. It’s best you don’t trouble to fault what hasn’t been presented. I’ve said plenty enough on my own that merits faulting. No need to help me hang myself. :(
Be well, old friend.

Thank you, Arcadia. I'll give it a listen tomorrow. Ten rounds with Cecil, as usual, has worn me out tonight.

Non Sum

Post by Non Sum » March 9th, 2010, 5:10 pm

Hello Acadia,
Your link was in Spanish, and regrettably I understand (?’abla’) none of it. I did give a partial (due to the slow download speed of satellite) listen to Mr. Mckenna. Clearly, the man is a fool. He starts off with claiming that the “more, more” of capitalism is ‘un-green,’ when we should be producing “less, less.” Sounds good if one personally lives with “enough, enough,” but how many hundreds of millions are forced to live with nowhere near ‘enough,’ and require much “more, more,” if they hope to survive and prosper.

Mr. McKenna sees capitalism as undemocratic because free trade blocs force people to sell and buy junk they do not want. I’m always finding myself with some shopkeeper holding a gun against my head forcing me to buy things I’d never really want to own. :shock:

Communist China, in the days of Mao, felt the same way about international trade. Today’s China has made a 180 degree turn in opening up trade. The comparative results speak volumes about just how harmful lessening barriers to trade actually is for the people.

There is no “capitalism vs. democracy.” Since only capitalism IS democratic economics. Every purchase is a vote; a vote for a product and its price. Whatever buyers demand, suppliers must supply until that demand is met at the lowest possible price. Even when the rulers attempt to restrict a product, or artificially raise a price, the free market simply goes underground (though a risk premium gets added to the price).

Probably good that I didn’t listen to all of the video, since he doesn’t seem to get anything right. :?
NS (No Sale)

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