Killing Is Fun

Post by **e_dog** » February 7th, 2005, 12:06 am

Consider the wisdom and example of the U.S. mililtary general who recently said that shooting people can be quite a hoot. This has drawn much criticism and shock from the more liberal minded media and military critics, but according to more than one "Republican strategist" interviewed on cable news, the general's expression of pleasure at the idea of killing enemies of the U.S. is perfectly morally and politically sound, even if a bit inappropriate for public broadcasting. What excellent leadership for the young troops who are already raised in a video arcade-like culture!

Post by **knip** » February 7th, 2005, 5:11 am

here it is:

folks who are raised to kill as a matter of course, which is what certain elements of the armed forces is, generally want to kill and maim...this is not a condemnation of the military, but an acknowledgment of what militaries do...militaries are, to quote clausewitz, more or less, the agents who exact the political intentions of governments when politics cannot achieve the same, and at the behest of said governments...in such an arrangement, one needs killers

we all bemoan the intrusion of PC into our lives...these folks think the same...i'm not condoning what the Genral said...i am saying that he was merely saying what they are trained to do, in an un-PC way

so if you are against folks speaking plainly, then admit you are a PC-proponent

if you are against folks speaking plainly because of the message, then fine...a valid complaint...but don't dress it up in what this guy said...stick to your original argument

but be aware of what you ask for and how you use it...

personally...i think what the guy said was hugely irresponsible...but not inconsistent with what these folks do for a living...it is distasteful, yes...and if you have no taste for war i can appreciate that...but he ius merely a mouth that spoke a bit too much...the converse is military foilks who speak like talking heads....goose and gander stuff....

hester_prynne · Post by **hester_prynne** » February 7th, 2005, 6:01 pm

Oh, I see, so they are not only trained to kill, but trained to think that killing is a hoot? It only makes sense right? If you're gonna kill you better like it.

You know, another issue I like is that women must not be allowed to even consider abortion, oh no no no no, slut, murderers they be, yet viagra is set to be dispensed by medicare!
awwwww whatamatterboys? can't get it up anymore? awwwwwww poor lil babies...we can't have that now can we dears?

I guess when God is your ego anything goes!

Fuck me,
such a radical eh?

!
arrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh!
H
not feeling very

Post by **mousey1** » February 7th, 2005, 6:29 pm

The Captain
by Leonard Cohen

Now the Captain called me to his bed
He fumbled for my hand
"Take these silver bars," he said
"I'm giving you command."
"Command of what, there's no one here
There's only you and me --
All the rest are dead or in retreat
Or with the enemy."

"Complain, complain, that's all you've done
Ever since we lost
If it's not the Crucifixion
Then it's the Holocaust."
"May Christ have mercy on your soul
For making such a joke
Amid these hearts that burn like coal
And the flesh that rose like smoke."

"I know that you have suffered, lad,
But suffer this awhile:
Whatever makes a soldier sad
Will make a killer smile."
"I'm leaving, Captain, I must go
There's blood upon your hand
But tell me, Captain, if you know
Of a decent place to stand."

"There is no decent place to stand
In a massacre;
But if a woman take your hand
Go and stand with her."
"I left a wife in Tennessee
And a baby in Saigon --
I risked my life, but not to hear
Some country-western song."

"Ah but if you cannot raise your love
To a very high degree,
Then you're just the man I've been thinking of --
So come and stand with me."
"Your standing days are done," I cried,
"You'll rally me no more.
I don't even know what side
We fought on, or what for."

"I'm on the side that's always lost
Against the side of Heaven
I'm on the side of Snake-eyes tossed
Against the side of Seven.
And I've read the Bill of Human Rights
And some of it was true
But there wasn't any burden left
So I'm laying it on you."

Now the Captain he was dying
But the Captain wasn't hurt
The silver bars were in my hand
I pinned them to my shirt.

hester_prynne · Post by **hester_prynne** » February 7th, 2005, 6:52 pm

What would we do without Cohen?

"Oh the sisters of mercy
they are not departed or gone
They were waiting for me
when I thought that I just can't go on
And they brought me their comfort
And later they brought me their song
O, I hope you run into them
you who've been traveling so long.

Yes, you who must leave everything
that you cannot control
It begins with your family
But soon it comes round to your soul,
Well I've been where you're hanging
I think I can see how you're pinned
When you're not feeling holy
Your loneliness says you have sinned

They lay down beside me
I made my confession to them
They touched both my eyes
and I touched the dew on their hem
If your life is a leaf
That the seasons tear off and condemn
They will bind you with love
That is graceful and green as a stem

When I left they were sleeping
I hope you run into them soon
Don't turn on the lights
You can read their address by the moon
And you won't make me jealous
If I hear that they've sweetened your night
We weren't lovers like that
And besides it would still be alright
We weren't lovers like that
and besides it would still be alright......"

H

Post by **knip** » February 7th, 2005, 8:15 pm

i thought that post might stir up some emotion

my job here is done

perezoso · Post by **perezoso** » February 7th, 2005, 9:31 pm

ever consider all the gals that worship soldiers and cops and military types.....

hester_prynne · Post by **hester_prynne** » February 7th, 2005, 9:48 pm

"it ain't me babe
naw! naw! naw!
it ain't me babe...."

hester_prynne · Post by **hester_prynne** » February 7th, 2005, 9:50 pm

Stirrin up trouble eh knip?

you military types like to do that huh?

Post by **mnaz** » February 8th, 2005, 1:33 am

"Shooting people can be quite a hoot"?

A counterproductive, irresponsible statement by a general, which speaks for itself..... a simple, inconsequential "PC/no PC" debate?.... I don't think so.

Post by **knip** » February 8th, 2005, 11:24 am

well, i'm not sure that's exactly what i said...let there be no doubt that although there are lots of military folks who want to kill, there also exist many who don't...there are many motivations for why folks join and stay in militaries

the folks this guy commanded were an elite unit, and it can be presumed that most of them want to kill, or at least a higher percentage than in other units...you can say any desire to 'want to kill' is abhorable, but remember that this board has a fairly common abhorence of war in its character, so any desire to kill is going to be assumed as abhorrent (sp?)...but in its time and place, a desire to kill is not necessarily a wrong thing...whether one supports a particular campaign goes a long way towards determining if it is abhorrent behaviour or not

if i said in world war 2 that i wanted to kill those responsible for the concentration camps, and said it publicly, i suspect i would have less opposition to the comments...support for that war was less divided, and disgust with the camps almost universal...so i think that it is a question of PC/non-PC, in that it is really only those in opposition to the war complaining about what he said, and also a smattering of proponents, i suppose

i will reiterate...i don not condone what he said...a man of his rank should know better...but i think we need to better understand the reasons and conditions before automatically assuming it was wrong simply because it was a statement about enjoying killing...looking at it through those lenses is what seems simplistic to me

Post by **mnaz** » February 8th, 2005, 1:07 pm

Well then, we agree. The statement was irresponsible and (I think) counterproductive to the cause of "spreading freedom and democracy (copyright, GOP, 2001, all rights reserved)", not to mention winning Muslim hearts and minds. Why proceed to waste valuable time and energy trying to qualify in some way this callous, reckless statement by a high-ranking military official who should know better?

I think the relative level of support for the war is largely irrelevant to this question, but even if you want to factor it in, I think it only magnifies the general's irresponsibility, and further undermines support for an already tenuous campaign. This destructive, aggressive war, started by the U.S., without sufficient justification, and rife with imperialistic overtones, ain't World War 2. I don't think I'll ever buy into any form of those comparisons or "parallels".

perezoso · Post by **perezoso** » February 8th, 2005, 1:46 pm

If the General was directing his remarks only to people dedicated to murderous terrorism or the violent overthrow of the US--say Osama Bin Laden, or Hussein--then his remarks are understandable. Yet in the attempt to kill those "terrorists" and also liberate a country thousands of civilians and children are killed. The question is not simply "was it justified" but what is the status of the deaths of civilians killed in the war to capture the terrorists? To the US military, civilian deaths are merely "collateral damage"; to iraqi families, I suspect at least some of them would say it was a crime of serious proportions.

Post by **stilltrucking** » February 8th, 2005, 7:26 pm

my job here is done

If only it was sir.
I mean if only we did not need warriors anymore

I thought of you last week while I was listening to a Canadian General who was negotiating to save lives during the unpleasantness in Rwanda back in the good old bloody twentieth century. He was on Fresh Air (NPR Show) plugging his book
"Shake Hands With The Devil"

WWII, if I was a Quaker back then I think I would have followed Richard Nixon into war. The Friends I have talked to about their experience during that war say they volunteered for medical experiments and tested equipment for the military, but they could not kill any one becasue it was not a hoot. There may have been some medics and chaplains, not sure about that.
If I got drafted at the tender age of 64 I could go as a chaplains assistant and cary nothing more deadly then a three inch pencil stub. (Slaugther House Five)

sail on

"There is no decent place to stand
In a massacre;

Well maybe so, but it there had been a few more soldiers standing between those tall africans and the short ones, maybe seven hundred thousand lives could have been saved, but then again saved for what, famine disease.

pardon me if I seem like a war monger I am just standing on the steet with no arrows of direction to guide my feet. This holy war of our dear leader is insane. I feeling like telling him to shut the fuck up. But he seems like such a nice guy this bible pounding dear leader who has no imagination. But then again , I suppose this war makes makes more sense than Viet Nam, Charlie had no oil.
I think that is what he is all about dollars and sense, damn this democracy of the plutocrats, dam them all

.
___________________________________________

"Trakl had too much imagination. For this reason he couldn't stand war, which arises above all from a monstrous lack of imagination. "1 --Franz Kafka

Post by **knip** » February 8th, 2005, 8:13 pm

i'm reading that book right now, as a matter of fact

i met general romeo dallaire twice...once shortly after his return from rwanda, before he was diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder, and then again after the repeated suicide attempts, bottle battles, and public and international ridicule

he is responsible for much of the improved medical treatment in operational stress injuries and support to families back home that we currently enjoy

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