can i get a AMEN!

[firsty]

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=674042006

Creationism dismissed as 'a kind of paganism' by Vatican's astronomer
IAN JOHNSTON

BELIEVING that God created the universe in six days is a form of superstitious paganism, the Vatican astronomer Guy Consolmagno claimed yesterday.

Brother Consolmagno, who works in a Vatican observatory in Arizona and as curator of the Vatican meteorite collection in Italy, said a "destructive myth" had developed in modern society that religion and science were competing ideologies.

He described creationism, whose supporters want it taught in schools alongside evolution, as a "kind of paganism" because it harked back to the days of "nature gods" who were responsible for natural events.

Brother Consolmagno argued that the Christian God was a supernatural one, a belief that had led the clergy in the past to become involved in science to seek natural reasons for phenomena such as thunder and lightning, which had been previously attributed to vengeful gods. "Knowledge is dangerous, but so is ignorance. That's why science and religion need to talk to each other," he said.

"Religion needs science to keep it away from superstition and keep it close to reality, to protect it from creationism, which at the end of the day is a kind of paganism - it's turning God into a nature god. And science needs religion in order to have a conscience, to know that, just because something is possible, it may not be a good thing to do."

Brother Consolmagno, who was due to give a speech at the Glasgow Science Centre last night, entitled "Why the Pope has an Astronomer", said the idea of papal infallibility had been a "PR disaster". What it actually meant was that, on matters of faith, followers should accept "somebody has got to be the boss, the final authority".

"It's not like he has a magic power, that God whispers the truth in his ear," he said.

[jimboloco]

Man created god in his own image. At least the ladies had better sense.

[Traveller13]

"Religion needs science to keep it away from superstition and keep it close to reality, to protect it from creationism, which at the end of the day is a kind of paganism - it's turning God into a nature god. And science needs religion in order to have a conscience, to know that, just because something is possible, it may not be a good thing to do."

They're too late
science has already become a religion in itself

[e_dog]

i agree with Jimbo. Man created God.

the sophisticated superstition of papal astronmers is no better than that of "nature god's" -- in fact probably worse because i am sure pagans are/were more environmentally friendly than contemporary secular or religious society. also not clear that Brother Astroman is using the term "pagan" properly. there were plenty of "pagan" astronmers and cosmologists in ancient Greece who were light-years ahead of the R.C. church for most of its tenure.

methinks, tho, that Brother Astroman's gonna end up in the prison tower with Gallileo if he keeps shooting his mouth off about the superstitious character of creationism and that the idea of papal infallibility is a public relations gaff.

about the fact that religion needs science to stay ground in reality, that true; but society and science doesn't need religion to have a conscience -- secular morality should do just fine (if it ever were really practiced and realized).

[mnaz]

.... society and science doesn't need religion to have a conscience -- secular morality should do just fine (if it ever were really practiced and realized).

Great point here. Sometimes I think the real battle is against materialism, in general-- consuming consumption, or urge to corner the market-- from gasoline to God. The gangsters assume heaven based on material gain, as the elected Pope assumes a payoff in his hard-won pipeline to heaven's truth.

On the other hand, where is the collective voice of "secular morality", which should be outraged at the abuses of every stripe of "religious" gangsterism? Missing in action, too often. (Probably too busy trying to make a living, dammit)....

[firsty]

you have to have some way to keep the idiots in line without forcing them to understand absolute morality. it's easier for the idiots to believe that a giant turtle is living in the stars watching them masturbate and curse than it is to get them to believe that it's impossible for humanity to sustain itself if we go around killing one another.

[Dave The Dov]

AMEN!!!!....oh wait I'm a borderline atheist!!!!
_________________
Mercedes 600

[e_dog]

the problem, firsty, 's that the "idiots" are more likely to believe that the great big turtle is ordering them to kill the infidel than to believe that said turtle is watching them masturbate.

take Bush as an example. he maybe believes he's fightin' a holy war against Islam, as well as all those who don't profess their faith in the God of Capitalism, the Almighty Dollar, Blessed Be Its Interest Rate.

[Traveller13]

George Bush isn't a christian.
He thinks he believes in God but he doesn't.
According to the Bible, God is the only one to judge human beings.
A christian leader wouldn't tell his people what they should or shouldn't do, for telling what people should do is no man's decision.
This idea goes against justice, against moral rules that have been built by men, and most importantly against any kind of hierarchy.
In other terms, anarchy.
Is George Bush an anarchist?
I think not.

[firsty]

george bush is not a christian
george bush is not an anarchist
george bush is not a man
george bush is a twit
george bush is a criminal
george bush is a fucking douchebag
he believes in giant turtles
george bush's only path to heaven
is on the backs of flying pigs
fleeing the frozen tundra
of hell itself.

[Traveller13]

edit: I wanted to put 2 posts in a row but firsty beat me to it. Oh well... lol
Good piece of evidence poetry, firsty.
However, contrary to what you state I believe that hell is warm whereas heaven is freezing.
To believe that hell is freezing is typically occidental.
In Antartica, home of Santy Claws, the Only Gay Eskimo and the Penguin Rocker's Club, it might be a little rough at times, but the closest it ever got to hell was the time when we snow-buggy'd all the way from Scott Base down to the South Pole, and once arrived realised that Nick had forgotten the Sandwiches (plus, we'd gone with Boäääär [polar bear] and heulk [sea elephant who got overweight after long trip to Houston], and Boäääär tends to get kinda grumpy when he's hungry - me&Jeff had to drive all the way back while trying to make everyone stay in one piece, which wasn't easy. And the penguin bunch at the back were making things worse by singing "no woman no cry [definetely avoid that] all.... the friggin.... way.... back.... mile... after.... friggin... mile.......

What was I talking about?
oh yes.

So if you'd replaced "the frozen tundra" with "the burnt tundra", I'd appreciate it. Just a question of principles, you know? Plus, it reinforces the idea that GWB going to heaven will never happen, by making the situation even less realistic (the tundra shall never burn, God forbid)

End of edit.

_____________________________________________

From that I conclude that a lot of people pretend to be religious, but, in fact, ar not. It creates a big mix-up about what religions are, because some of those religious figures are important and mediatised.

The next question is, what are they thinking, and what are their motives?
The two main scenarios that pop into my mind (and I think we've all heard of them) are:
1)Those religious figures have been caught up in a system despite themselves, and have been led away from the original message led by the said religion, and they don't know what they're doing but are convinced that what they're doing is just.
2)They perfectly know what they're doing, and are using religion as a pretext or umbrella to protect themselves or brainwash people into following them, so that they can achieve their goals.

Of course we're talking about people, and every person works a different way, which is why it might be a bit hasty to generalise.

[jimboloco]

I work in a Catholic hospital, which emphasises spirituality, and yeah, even differentiates between spiritual and religious needs, per the admissions assessment. It's far surperior a culture over the sub-human culture at the secular hospital that I worked at before, with it's political bullshit and half-assed chaos all the time. The Catholic hospital is generous, caring, and friendly. What can I say. I regularly call for chaplains and like particluarly the two priests and also a couple of sisters who ioccasionally pass by, one, Sister Anne, is warm, soulful, and smart. She is the president of Pax Christi, Tampo. Also rabbi's and Baptists, etc, prowl around from time to time, but mostly volunteers, older folks who simply believe and their presence is helpful.

At work they know about where I came from and who I am underneath my smiling greatful face. I have tasted despair and ultimate disgust, and carry it with me at all times, not suppressed, but integrated into my psyche that will not quit, beaming energy with a deeper faith, the faith of the eternal idiot, the vagabond, the lost ones , and are saved by the grace of the eternal spot of luck.

Where does this deep compassion come from?

Don't know, but I know the universal flame, horse dung fires and minnoews' reflections and gaping jaws and sucking chest wounds and panic, horror, petrified fear, and sudden relief, a sigh.

I know that this is what needs to be transmitted. The underground stream.

George Bush Junior is a son of a bitch.

[firsty]

the meaning was that bush will end up in heaven when pigs fly and hell freezes over.

mmm, flying bbq.

[stilltrucking]

Here I go again about six posts too late:

They're too late
science has already become a religion in itself

I agree with Jeremy

AMEN!!!!....oh wait I'm a borderline atheist!!!!

]
Not yet for me Dav, not yet But it is getting pretty surreal, I have built an altar of paper clips.

Amen Firsty, my Friend

No wait Quakers don’t say Amen, unless they are joking

These days I feel like a defrocked quacker.

[stilltrucking]

jimbo you are right too, but I been trying to ponder the imponerables, we are hard wired for G d, that is what makes Intelligent Design so seductive. RE: traveller13's post.