Peace movement at a crossroads (my hometown)

[whimsicaldeb]

Jack - let's continue this over here shall we:
http://studioeight.tv/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=58225#58225

[whimsicaldeb]

This may sound a bit harsh, but why only crosses for fallen U.S. troops? Where is the symbolic representation for Iraqi war dead?...

Because this it their personal expression; this particular artists and now his friends. Not something being put out by the goverment for all the people. So this is how he chose to express his feelings, views, emotions.

But others have included the Iraqis in their art work/memorials. (again) Here's one that I know of:
16 Shadows
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2006/0 ... 269021.php

If others know of some other ones, I hope they post them as well.

...
Standard line: "We regret the losses, and the Iraqis are better off now, and it was necessary and unavoidable".

As if "necessity" makes it right. And was it necessary? Is it still necessary? I've a hard time linking government-issue necessity to "justifiable" collateral killings, but suppose for a moment that I play along. I said from day one that the US/UK invasion of Iraq was unjustified, and I stand by those statements, given the situation in 2003 and where I thought our national security priorities should be. In retrospect the case to remove Saddam may have been slightly more viable than I allowed in 2003. Maybe. Probably not. Who cares? Why is the United States military still occupying a country that wants it gone by a fairly healthy majority? Why is D.C. unwilling to consider options other than a central Iraqi government on a tether to the White House? Because resolution, peace, and "Iraqi Freedom" are not of primary concern to D.C., in favor of hegemonic influence in the Middle East. And this I hear justified continually by various pundits as having something to do with the inherent evilness of theocracy in general... like that had anything really to do with the initial Iraq invasion to begin with. Please.

I checked the polls: 61 percent disapprove/26 percent approve/13 percent drunk... I checked the latest election results: an inexplicable shift to the long-vilified "defeat-o-crats"... The message seems pretty clear to me, but why grant the likes of Dick Effin' Cheney power to begin with? Too late, people. I'll probably take a lot of shit for this, but at some point the strong, upstanding families who comprise our all-volunteer armed forces might read a little more late 20th Century history, and read it more vigorously, and (dare I say) more critically. It is only through the vitality and love and dedication of its people that government policy is fleshed out on the ground. In light of the last four years, I hope the all-volunteer military might take a closer look.

I agree with what you're saying mnaz. And I think a fair number of our military IS taking second, and third looks at things - and seeing things more clearly now then before.

Too late. NO - it's never to late to wake up and smell the coffee.
Better late, than never and we're not "too old" or too anything (other than stubborn perhaps) to change.

Bush won't change his mind at this; accepting that and working with others who have changed their mind, and with those who never were of that mind in the first place is the answer. We know all this. Now we just ... live it! And see what happens from here.

[mnaz]

In other words, in reality, love of country (and duty and honor) at some point becomes inadequate to justify enlisting in a military that one strongly suspects has been hijacked. Not sure if we're at that point yet, but we're getting damn close.

[stilltrucking]

...

Get off my thread Jack. Hi-jack someone elses

.

Say what? What the hell is this about? Is it so terrible for me to want a moment of silence on manstream media for the men and women sacrificed in this idiot war. I have no idea what I said to piss you off, I would like to see those crosses every where. A silent witness. I would like a moment's silence before every football game, every news cast, I don't like this business as usual. Don't mind the war folks, keep on shopping. Show me where I am hijacking this thread. I am sorry about your friends loss, maybe I did not make that clear enough. I can understand e-dogs remark. We need to bring this war home, every day in every way. But you know I am just whistling dixie. I live two blocks from the main gate of a military base Deb. I have wonderful neighbors. I don't want to see pictures of their mutilated bodies. It is the same shizt as not letting the public see those coffins coming back to Dover AFB. Such an antiseptic war we have. I was not being sarcastic when I asked you if your friends story made it to the evening news. It should , it should be on prime time news not just in some local paper. NO I don't want to go to flames, lets make peace here. I leave it up to doreen to delete my posts if she thinks they are not appropriate. PS I don't have cable TV

[whimsicaldeb]

Get off my thread Jack. Hi-jack someone elses.

Say what?
What the hell is this about?

http://www.studioeight.tv/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=9132

- - - -

In other words, in reality, love of country (and duty and honor) at some point becomes inadequate to justify enlisting in a military that one strongly suspects has been hijacked. Not sure if we're at that point yet, but we're getting damn close.

I think so. I also think 'love of country, duty and honor' can take many different forms; some not always conventional. Sometimes love of country, duty and honor means becoming rebels.

The religious right, the one that Bush pandered to, the one that McCain is pandering to now; by design infiltrated a lot of places including our military and not to make excuses but many people didn't know what to say as it was happening. Now we (as a country) are seeing just how damn hard it is to get rid of them once they've established themselves. They're like cancer cells. It's not always easy to take something back that's been hijacked. In the military it can come across as mutiny, in our government as unpatriotic; and they use that ... they use it, to make anyone who disagrees or calls them on their crap as the cause of all the strife. They twist the facts, and situations, to avoid having to directly and honestly face them; all while holding themselves up as the honourable ones while doing all this. It’s sickening.

It's hard to stand up to that … and yet hard or not, we must – and so we are. As a country; we are. Even in the military there is strong tug-of-war happening.

I don’t know who’s going to prevail.

[stilltrucking]

...

Yes I read that onedeb And I won't be intimidated by you You twisting my words You put words in my mouth

they use it, to make anyone who disagrees or calls them on their crap as the cause of all the strife. They twist the facts, and situations, to avoid having to directly and honestly face them; all while holding themselves up as the honourable ones while doing all this. It’s sickening.

Yes it is sickening.

[stilltrucking]

...

In light of the last four years, I hope the all-volunteer military might take a closer look.

There will be a test of the selective service system in 2009, it is just a test they say. They have no intention of bringing back the draft, they say. I don't know if I can stand the next two years, so much riding on the next election cycle.

[e_dog]

Why not honor the Iraqi dead?

Because they are the enemy!

What about the dead civilians? What dead civilians?

Those must have been killed by the extremists who don't want peace. Not our problem.

We're there to build a better Iraq for the Iraqis. Those still living. We are building a better Iraq 'cause it will make things safer for us, the US.

Remember September the 11th. We will never forget the way that Al Queda invaded our soil/soul.

If you don't see that you're unAmerican.

We need a troop surge like a junky needs a fix.

[stilltrucking]

I appologized to you many times for my sarcasm.

I am sorry about the death of your friend's child.

I am grateful for the Jim Lehrer News hour. I like to watch that old white man's face as he sorrowfully anounces that there will be a momnent silence in memorial to the days dead. Then the pictures start scrolling, the names, hometown, and age. Mostly twenty somethings, some teenagers, and a few old men in their forties.

This war seems so out of sight out of mind
Nothing but soundbytes and photo ops
anything that keeps it the public eye okay by me

And it is over for the dead, but the living going to struggle with the consequences of this war for a long long time.

once again deb please accept my appology I was out of line,

[jimboloco]

the culture within the military is one of obediance
i guess
how else could bush get such a warm response from the militarios
'me i aam tired of being an antiwar veteran

i got into it last week at work with a doctor
he asked me, "when you go into the military, don't you know that you might have to go into a tough situation?"
it's like
he doesn't get it
so i tell him quite clearly
" yes we know that we can go into a tough situation, but it has to mean something." beyond lies, manipulations, etc

there's a loveable huggable pharmacist
i call him jim dandy caouse he wears a tie and the ladies all give him hugs
he loves bush
he thinks that iraq had something to do with 9-11
nothing i can say to him makes any difference
and i smile and greet him warmly
but the 20 year army medic retired who was in bosnia is against iraq war

it will happen it must
a new sensibility
a questioning

the weight of a body bag
the sweet smell
37 years a long time for young men to be dead inside my head
i applaud those who have erected memorials for the fallen
visual clues for the clueless
but even then our sympathies go only as far as our own
we are very tribal in that respect
country joe wants to erect a memorial for all the war dead
and the grievous suffering that has emergen within iraq
the survivors who lost loved ones
so many
and where is the concern for them
except as rationale for more of the same
(what would happen if we left now?)
we have sufferred the iraqi people enough
we need to leave
and someday will
in the mean time
i am resuming my therapy sessions
emdr
trying to cut back on my drinking and pot
i got to survive and be good for my family
ptsd is a lifetime deal

i gotta take care now
peace and love

[bohonato]

ptsd is a lifetime deal

My sister was just diagnosed.
Saw it coming a mile away, she's just not the same.

[whimsicaldeb]

Apology accepted Jack.

...

Jimbo, Bohonato ...

One of my nephews is a Marine, and he constantly complains about how the marines "... fucked with my head." He joined, as an alternative to college; was stationed at the pentagon on 9/11/2001, but happened to be out on maneuvers that day ...
and he's served his term(s) in Iraq.

Ptsd ~ a life long thing, for him, and all of us who love him.

...


One of the owners of the hillside crosses recently passed ...

Owner of hillside with crosses dies
By Katherine Tam

CONTRA COSTA TIMES
Article Launched: 05/02/2007 03:04:38 AM PDT

LAFAYETTE -- Johnson Clark, co-owner of the Lafayette hillside where more than 3,000 crosses stand, has died at age 85.

He died April 27 from complications after a heart procedure, said his daughter, Candice Clark-Wozniak.

Clark grew up in Illinois and attended Princeton University and the University of Chicago. He joined the Navy and served in World War II.

He was a Lafayette resident for 55 years.

In November, Clark, his wife, Louise, and resident Jeff Heaton started the hillside of crosses across from the BART station that has ignited public debate about how to appropriately honor soldiers killed in the Iraq war. The display has brought widespread media attention to the suburb.

The crosses will remain until the troops return, said Louise Clark.

Johnson Clark was a history buff who was knowledgeable about battles around the globe.

"We always thought he could be a history professor," said Clark-Wozniak.

He was an avid swimmer and white-water kayaker, and would either swim or kayak every day. His passion for kayaking inspired Clark-Wozniak to take up the sport and eventually become a member of the U.S. Olympic kayak team in Montreal in 1976. Clark last kayaked in his 70s on the American River.

He started a triathlon in which about 50 participants ran and kayaked at the Lafayette Reservoir, Clark-Wozniak said.

"Thirty years ago, we had some of the first triathlons around," she said.

Johnson Clark

BORN: Oct. 31, 1921
DIED: April 27, 2007

[stilltrucking]

It took me a while to figure out what happened here,
it is just what I wanted as WD pointed out, not what is.

The root of all pure joy and sadness is that the world is as it is.
http://www.h2so4.net/issues/issue12.html

I wanted the flags at half-mast every day a soldier was killed. I wanted every TV station to show the faces of the sacrifices every day. I wanted a moment of silence at the Super bowl at a gazillion dollar a second advertising rates.

Now I am just grateful for Jim Lehrer News Hour. As that old ex-marine sorrowfully announces that there will be a moment of silence as the names of the days dead are scrolled across the Screen. A picture, a name, home town and age. 15 yesterday, mostly twenty somethings, a few teenagers, and an old man in his forties.


I let my anger and anguish flare against WD.
she was right
i was looking for something
just what I wanted

Until next time WD
I appreciate it.