Dear e_dog:
Zlatko does not find LW boring at all. I said debating him was boring, as is debating baseball.
LW is wonderful; I love his pleonasms. I wrote a poem about him.
He is in the long list of writers and artists I admire very much but would never like to have met (I was six years old when he died).
I do find the tightly fitted system of the Tractatus spurious, and so did he eventually; hence the "Philosophical Investigations."
It's an interesting distinction:
Miner's Heterarchical "loose coupling" ideas . . .
"heterarchical design versus heterarchical phenomenon", for instance . . .
http://www.manageability.org/blog/stuff ... sions/view
Though much writing along these lines is plain poo-poo, here's another interesting sketch of a "loose-tight" application:
http://submission.intermedia.uib.no/wor ... 00209.html
For me much of this circles back around to Deleuze and Guattari's "nomad" vision:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 1?v=glance
Anti-Oedipus, Schizoanalysis and "middleware", among other mysteries.
Thanks for your comments.
Zlatko
Nude Art
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Zlatko Waterman
- Posts: 1631
- Joined: August 19th, 2004, 8:30 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
- Contact:
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abcrystcats
- Posts: 619
- Joined: August 20th, 2004, 9:37 pm
"the idea that painting and macroeconomics are in competition, such that you have to decide which is better, is silly."
Thank you, e-dog. It's probably just my slow wit at work, but I still do not understand how Marxism entered the conversation. Because Mary Klages often quoted Marxist writers, I do not see how it follows that in order to discuss postmodernism we must discuss Marxism first.
As for the "labor theory of values" I happen to know from prior debates on FH that Perezoso favors a system in which art for the sake of pleasure and appreciation has no place at all. His worldview is (must be) a totalitarian one where most, if not all, art and scholarship have been trashed and rendered useless. I'd drag out quotes to prove it, but I'd have to go digging through FH, and I don't want to do that now.
I am not happy with Perezoso's bug-squashing methods. If he thought I was such an inferior debate partner, then why did he bother in the first place? Converse with me, teach me, or ignore me, but don't intellectually bitch-slap me, OK? Why is it that every time Perezoso enters a discussion, his insults stop the process dead?
We may be far below you, Perez ...grovelling in the dust with the worms and ants ... but if that is truly the case, please seek some other company.
Thank you, e-dog. It's probably just my slow wit at work, but I still do not understand how Marxism entered the conversation. Because Mary Klages often quoted Marxist writers, I do not see how it follows that in order to discuss postmodernism we must discuss Marxism first.
As for the "labor theory of values" I happen to know from prior debates on FH that Perezoso favors a system in which art for the sake of pleasure and appreciation has no place at all. His worldview is (must be) a totalitarian one where most, if not all, art and scholarship have been trashed and rendered useless. I'd drag out quotes to prove it, but I'd have to go digging through FH, and I don't want to do that now.
I am not happy with Perezoso's bug-squashing methods. If he thought I was such an inferior debate partner, then why did he bother in the first place? Converse with me, teach me, or ignore me, but don't intellectually bitch-slap me, OK? Why is it that every time Perezoso enters a discussion, his insults stop the process dead?
We may be far below you, Perez ...grovelling in the dust with the worms and ants ... but if that is truly the case, please seek some other company.
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perezoso
For all your supposed philosophical sophistication, you miss a great deal, E-dawg. Distinctions can be made between aesthetics and economics, between empirical investigations and continental theorizing. Types of knowledge and systems of thought can be rated, whether you agree with that rating or not. Russell's writings on language and logic are I think of more value than Heidegger's. Marx himself often questioned the value of belle-lettres if not literature itself.
There is a pragmatic argument being made: what contributes more useful knowledge to the real world: a new poem by say Seamus Heaney or say the Human Genome Project, a new free jazz CD or a Dennett's research on intentionality. Sorry to say I find literature, arts and entertainment mostly of secondary or tertiary importance. Photography is also quite effective in presenting the facts without any literary or artistic artifice. Steinbeck may have put forth the Grapes of Wrath in hopes of addressing the economic injustices of the Central Valley in the 30s, but his facts were often incorrect. I take it as somewhat self-evident that research and analysis by a Keynes or Galbraith is of more value and applicability than a Steinbeck or EL Doctorow. Gary Snyder's nature rhapsodies may be cool for some, but for analyzing and solving environmental issues a decent biochemist is needed, not a poet. Literature is not a science, nor even a social science. In fact it can be argued quite persuasively that for all the writer or poet's "hipness" and insights into "man's inhumanity to man" or the "absurd condition" that he is an anachronism if not quasi-aristocratic auto-didact. That's why most lit. creeps detest positivism: because it requires them to justify and verify their belief systems.
BTW the early LW was no primitive. The picture theory of truth has been somewhat confirmed by experiments with primates. Most logic books make use of the two place truth functions which he charted . There are other ideas --such as his ideas on logical syntax and naming-- which are relevant. IT is the Phil. Investigations that makes the move into the anthropological if not primitive. I enjoy reading some of the PI (though it's surely not a model of clarity--Uncle Bertie was a far better writer and yes logician, as was Quine ) but I think PI concepts lead really to behaviorism and cognitive science issues. It is anti-idealist and anti-essentialist, though theologian types like to make use of it. So in a sense its worth is in showing what the issues are; but LW did not have the research or clinical skillls to deal with the implications. And really I think the PI sort of implies the death of any metaphysics.
(Miss Kat---When you finish say reading the first chapter from Capital, or the Tractatus, then maybe we might chat, but I doubt it)
There is a pragmatic argument being made: what contributes more useful knowledge to the real world: a new poem by say Seamus Heaney or say the Human Genome Project, a new free jazz CD or a Dennett's research on intentionality. Sorry to say I find literature, arts and entertainment mostly of secondary or tertiary importance. Photography is also quite effective in presenting the facts without any literary or artistic artifice. Steinbeck may have put forth the Grapes of Wrath in hopes of addressing the economic injustices of the Central Valley in the 30s, but his facts were often incorrect. I take it as somewhat self-evident that research and analysis by a Keynes or Galbraith is of more value and applicability than a Steinbeck or EL Doctorow. Gary Snyder's nature rhapsodies may be cool for some, but for analyzing and solving environmental issues a decent biochemist is needed, not a poet. Literature is not a science, nor even a social science. In fact it can be argued quite persuasively that for all the writer or poet's "hipness" and insights into "man's inhumanity to man" or the "absurd condition" that he is an anachronism if not quasi-aristocratic auto-didact. That's why most lit. creeps detest positivism: because it requires them to justify and verify their belief systems.
BTW the early LW was no primitive. The picture theory of truth has been somewhat confirmed by experiments with primates. Most logic books make use of the two place truth functions which he charted . There are other ideas --such as his ideas on logical syntax and naming-- which are relevant. IT is the Phil. Investigations that makes the move into the anthropological if not primitive. I enjoy reading some of the PI (though it's surely not a model of clarity--Uncle Bertie was a far better writer and yes logician, as was Quine ) but I think PI concepts lead really to behaviorism and cognitive science issues. It is anti-idealist and anti-essentialist, though theologian types like to make use of it. So in a sense its worth is in showing what the issues are; but LW did not have the research or clinical skillls to deal with the implications. And really I think the PI sort of implies the death of any metaphysics.
(Miss Kat---When you finish say reading the first chapter from Capital, or the Tractatus, then maybe we might chat, but I doubt it)
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abcrystcats
- Posts: 619
- Joined: August 20th, 2004, 9:37 pm
I doubt it, too, Perez. and the more I hear from you the greater the doubt grows in my mind. Ideologically we are very far apart.
If you wish to discuss economics and/or Marxism, I am sure that there are many places on the internet for you to do this. There are many places on this website where you can do this. The heading in this discussion category is "Visual Arts." The subtopic is "Nude Art."
Have you forgotten or are you deliberately trying to steer the discussion in the direction YOU wish it would go, once again disregarding the interests of the other contributors?
Your solipsism is tiring me.
If you wish to discuss economics and/or Marxism, I am sure that there are many places on the internet for you to do this. There are many places on this website where you can do this. The heading in this discussion category is "Visual Arts." The subtopic is "Nude Art."
Have you forgotten or are you deliberately trying to steer the discussion in the direction YOU wish it would go, once again disregarding the interests of the other contributors?
Your solipsism is tiring me.
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perezoso
That you would equate Marxism (or positivism) with solipsism demostrates your naive if not completely inaccurate perspective. Economic materialism is the antithesis of solipsism and relativism. It's watered-down idealism or mysticism or theology that are solipsistic. Post-modernistic approaches also may lead to subjectivity and relativism more readily than an economic or biological determinism. You also avoided more traditional approaches via Aristotle. So it is you that has not provided any vaild claims or insights.
Notwithstanding the flaws of marxist economics, there is a respectable tradition of marxist aesthetics. In fact it's one of the most effective contexts by which to interpret writing or art. Marxist with Darwinian concepts (and maybe some modern linguistic or psychological ideas) may provide a decent and rational aesthetic groundwork. Many great writers and artists were in the marxist or economic materialist tradition.
Art and culture are signs of success; traditionally art has been the possession of the rich and wealthy. Shakespeare wrote for the court. Aristocrats always had nudes of subservient mistresses to decorate their hunting mansions. Viewing writing and art as a commodity is also a valid method as seen in writings of Jameson and Adorno.
If you object to marxism or materialism or determinism, then I think you should defend or justify your position. I sense that you are probably a Christian, but if you are relying on some religious perspective to view writing or art ( or reality) then the burden is on you to defend your ideas. I do not think there is any rational defense for any theology.
Notwithstanding the flaws of marxist economics, there is a respectable tradition of marxist aesthetics. In fact it's one of the most effective contexts by which to interpret writing or art. Marxist with Darwinian concepts (and maybe some modern linguistic or psychological ideas) may provide a decent and rational aesthetic groundwork. Many great writers and artists were in the marxist or economic materialist tradition.
Art and culture are signs of success; traditionally art has been the possession of the rich and wealthy. Shakespeare wrote for the court. Aristocrats always had nudes of subservient mistresses to decorate their hunting mansions. Viewing writing and art as a commodity is also a valid method as seen in writings of Jameson and Adorno.
If you object to marxism or materialism or determinism, then I think you should defend or justify your position. I sense that you are probably a Christian, but if you are relying on some religious perspective to view writing or art ( or reality) then the burden is on you to defend your ideas. I do not think there is any rational defense for any theology.
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abcrystcats
- Posts: 619
- Joined: August 20th, 2004, 9:37 pm
There you go ...
"That you would equate Marxism (or positivism) with solipsism demostrates your naive if not completely inaccurate perspective."
HUH???? I called YOU a solipsist! I did not equate it with any of your political or economic theories.
Solipsism: (def) "the philosophical theory that the self is all that you know to exist"
That applies to you, as you appear to perceive that only YOU and your arguments are relevant on this website. You insist on arguing economics in a thread titled "Nude Art". If you were slightly less solipsistic, you would enter your arguments on an appropriate site, instead of attempting to twist this discussion into the form most pleasing to YOU.
After some slight study on the web, struggling with my feeble and retarded mental capacities, I have determined that you are best described as a deconstructionist. Therefore, I am not surprised at your deliberate twisting of a personal insult into an excuse to argue more politics.
"That you would equate Marxism (or positivism) with solipsism demostrates your naive if not completely inaccurate perspective."
HUH???? I called YOU a solipsist! I did not equate it with any of your political or economic theories.
Solipsism: (def) "the philosophical theory that the self is all that you know to exist"
That applies to you, as you appear to perceive that only YOU and your arguments are relevant on this website. You insist on arguing economics in a thread titled "Nude Art". If you were slightly less solipsistic, you would enter your arguments on an appropriate site, instead of attempting to twist this discussion into the form most pleasing to YOU.
After some slight study on the web, struggling with my feeble and retarded mental capacities, I have determined that you are best described as a deconstructionist. Therefore, I am not surprised at your deliberate twisting of a personal insult into an excuse to argue more politics.
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perezoso
Wrongo. It's not about character, mine or yours. I am arguing that a materialist position--following say darwin and/or marx-- is the most effective, and in fact the only rational way to understand writing and art. And yes there is an economic aspect--the art market itself is economic, is it not. Most discussions about writing or art, when dissected, are about economic and biological themes, even if they appear philosophical or theoretical. A painting of a nude may have an economic or biological function as well: a representation of a good "breeder", a fit gene carrier, a worthy trophy-wifey, etc.
I have tired of this, but I will admit when I see evidence of beat sentimentalism OR X-tianity or mysticism ala Father Zlatko I will jump in.
I have tired of this, but I will admit when I see evidence of beat sentimentalism OR X-tianity or mysticism ala Father Zlatko I will jump in.
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abcrystcats
- Posts: 619
- Joined: August 20th, 2004, 9:37 pm
Responding more directly: I am NOT a Christian! Jesus was a Jew and I have far too much respect for his words and Jewish wisdom to ever equate myself with that motley Pauline crew.
I am, however, a Capitalist. You must know that from our previous discussions. Your brand of Marxism or communism or socialism or whatever-it-is necessitates a totalitarian government. Your description of it on FH was quite clear. Whatever must be imposed upon a people in order to succeed does not have my support. Whatever theories you or Marx or whomever construct, it must take into account certain universal human flaws. That is required in order for it to be accepted by the majority and for it to prosper without totalitarian control.
I know nothing of your "Marxist esthetics" as a specific system. For myself, I believe that the people can and do determine what is favorable and enjoyable to them. That may be an unpopular view on this website, but I insist that it includes NUDE ART (or any art), literature, poetry, groceries, and anything else you care to throw into the mix. For me, capitalism is the voting power of the masses. You like it, you buy it. There is nothing wrong with that.
"Marxism" would re-distribute the wealth obtained by popular approval, so that the artist would have little or no benefit from his popular success. I DISapprove of that. I would have no motivation to be more than a streetsweeper in a Marxist system. Why bother? I can reserve my intellect (in its meager and retarded form!) for things most pleasing to myself!
Who says the mistresses were "subservient"? You? Phooey. Mistresses influenced policy behind the thrones of great men. Besides, now you're talking patriarchy and as far as I am concerned that is an entirely different subject.
One last note: you seem to rely on shorthand labels to express your points. If you WANT to talk to me (which I doubt) please elucidate. I am not conversant with your labels and would not speak in those terms even if or when I could understand them
I am, however, a Capitalist. You must know that from our previous discussions. Your brand of Marxism or communism or socialism or whatever-it-is necessitates a totalitarian government. Your description of it on FH was quite clear. Whatever must be imposed upon a people in order to succeed does not have my support. Whatever theories you or Marx or whomever construct, it must take into account certain universal human flaws. That is required in order for it to be accepted by the majority and for it to prosper without totalitarian control.
I know nothing of your "Marxist esthetics" as a specific system. For myself, I believe that the people can and do determine what is favorable and enjoyable to them. That may be an unpopular view on this website, but I insist that it includes NUDE ART (or any art), literature, poetry, groceries, and anything else you care to throw into the mix. For me, capitalism is the voting power of the masses. You like it, you buy it. There is nothing wrong with that.
"Marxism" would re-distribute the wealth obtained by popular approval, so that the artist would have little or no benefit from his popular success. I DISapprove of that. I would have no motivation to be more than a streetsweeper in a Marxist system. Why bother? I can reserve my intellect (in its meager and retarded form!) for things most pleasing to myself!
Who says the mistresses were "subservient"? You? Phooey. Mistresses influenced policy behind the thrones of great men. Besides, now you're talking patriarchy and as far as I am concerned that is an entirely different subject.
One last note: you seem to rely on shorthand labels to express your points. If you WANT to talk to me (which I doubt) please elucidate. I am not conversant with your labels and would not speak in those terms even if or when I could understand them
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perezoso
I realize I have said about enough, but I simply disagree that capitalism is inherently good or equitable. That doesn't mean maoism is to be preferred, but a planned econ. is needed . DO you think Bill Gates Inc. (and Microsoft as well as the rest of the Forbes 400) is a model of democracy? Or the stock market, speculation, corporations, banking, money markets and all the rest. There are many absurdites to capitalism and I dont have time to point them all out. Yes a doctor should make more than a laborer. A millionaire doctor or brilliant writer is not a problem. A Gates or Spielburg is an absurdity.
Whether its supported by 25 or 75 % of the US public doesn't matter.
Nitey nite.
Whether its supported by 25 or 75 % of the US public doesn't matter.
Nitey nite.
though both Cats and Perezoso have expressed being "tired" with this discussion, i am not tired of it, perhaps b/c i keep coming in too late to enter in in a timely manner. I suggest interested parties continue it over on the Anti-Academy page. anyone can start a thread or maybe i will. SEE MY NEW POST THERE ENTITLED "POSTMODERNISM, ART AND SCIENCE." issues of cultural theory, aesthetics and historical materialism are all intertwined. on this much, i much agree with Perezoso that questions of poltical economy are relevant to aesthetic questions. Adorno is a good example.
i am also interested in hearing more about perezoso's perplexing claim that the picture theory of meaning has been "confirmed" by experiments with primates. what experiments are you referring to, and as a prior point, what exactly is your conception of the picture theory? (is it even usefully described as a "theory"? i have my doubts, just as i do not believe there is such a thing as the "private language argument" in Phil. Investigations. by the way, i don't say these things to demonstrate my "supposed philosophical sophistication" -- or philosophistication -- i dont value sophistitication b/c much sophistication is sophistry -- i don't have to prove my personal credentials or worth, i think my words speak for me; the only reason i don't get as pissed off as Cats about perezoso's ad hominem comments is that i find them somewhat funny and laughable rather than serious attacks. i find perezoso's intellectual contribution to this discussion to be quite valuable, even if my conception of value i reckon differs decidedly from both his and Cats' very different visions.)
i am also interested in hearing more about perezoso's perplexing claim that the picture theory of meaning has been "confirmed" by experiments with primates. what experiments are you referring to, and as a prior point, what exactly is your conception of the picture theory? (is it even usefully described as a "theory"? i have my doubts, just as i do not believe there is such a thing as the "private language argument" in Phil. Investigations. by the way, i don't say these things to demonstrate my "supposed philosophical sophistication" -- or philosophistication -- i dont value sophistitication b/c much sophistication is sophistry -- i don't have to prove my personal credentials or worth, i think my words speak for me; the only reason i don't get as pissed off as Cats about perezoso's ad hominem comments is that i find them somewhat funny and laughable rather than serious attacks. i find perezoso's intellectual contribution to this discussion to be quite valuable, even if my conception of value i reckon differs decidedly from both his and Cats' very different visions.)
i definately have got to get a pixel camera and learn how to post on webworld.
one of my favorite drawings i ever did was of an old boney guy i call cadillac frank
on all fours
a class pose
more revolting than anything yet
he was a sweet old guy
an his old white cadilac is still driving
up in heavon
thanks for the posts and
i do find balthus a bit
perturbing
know this artist who says he never gives anything away
sells it all
i sold one drawing for forty bucks back in '93
oh me
also did an auto-erotic one
me and myself downward pose
camped on my cot one night
with still lifes in the distance
foreshortening
it is hidden in my old chest i think
i hope i can find it pixel it and post
you will know when i do
ballpoint pen
paper
my old pad last batchelorpad
i was thinking about my swiss cousin madeleine
was gonna send it to her
but thank god
i didn't
then whited out her name
left only the title
"safe sex"
amen
one of my favorite drawings i ever did was of an old boney guy i call cadillac frank
on all fours
a class pose
more revolting than anything yet
he was a sweet old guy
an his old white cadilac is still driving
up in heavon
thanks for the posts and
i do find balthus a bit
perturbing
know this artist who says he never gives anything away
sells it all
i sold one drawing for forty bucks back in '93
oh me
also did an auto-erotic one
me and myself downward pose
camped on my cot one night
with still lifes in the distance
foreshortening
it is hidden in my old chest i think
i hope i can find it pixel it and post
you will know when i do
ballpoint pen
paper
my old pad last batchelorpad
i was thinking about my swiss cousin madeleine
was gonna send it to her
but thank god
i didn't
then whited out her name
left only the title
"safe sex"
amen
Last edited by jimboloco on January 28th, 2005, 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
[color=darkcyan]i'm on a survival mission
yo ho ho an a bottle of rum om[/color]
yo ho ho an a bottle of rum om[/color]
i jus don wanna ya ta jus get busted wby
th word
water
wash it outa ya
some good h2o there
my finger wont stop bleedng
the challenger needz ta learn some grace
_________________
no one but yer self to be offended
oh yeah i wanna know
are ya survivors
mAZLO
th word
water
wash it outa ya
some good h2o there
my finger wont stop bleedng
the challenger needz ta learn some grace
_________________
no one but yer self to be offended
oh yeah i wanna know
are ya survivors
mAZLO
Last edited by jimboloco on January 28th, 2005, 4:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
[color=darkcyan]i'm on a survival mission
yo ho ho an a bottle of rum om[/color]
yo ho ho an a bottle of rum om[/color]
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stilltrucking
- Posts: 20607
- Joined: October 24th, 2004, 12:29 pm
- Location: Oz or somepLace like Kansas
Moved this bit to trailer park
**********************************************************
this bit here added on a saturday, I was looking at the new guy's feet, he took his shoes off in the car and almost killed me with the stench. He was wearing these cheap plastic shoes, he works doubles every day ten hours on his feet, the stench, so I spoke softly and mentioned the stink, kind of like the way I use to joke with him when I had the honor to change his shitty diapers when me and rose used to baby sit him . And it is up against the wall red necked mothers, who have raised your Jewish sons so well, soorry for the rattle, I know my sister tried the best she could, it was the Jewish Doctor syndrome that trashed his childhood, she was pushing thirty and her mother was pushing for a grand child so she married the bear, a man as cold as crazy mike, but he loved her, a one shot one baby kind of affair, so he married her and he was handy with a hammer and nails, which always comes in handy when you are making a nest.....jeez I keep rambling what the bardo is this alll about something visual ain't it, oh well it takes a thousand words sometimes, so the bear did the honorable thing but then after rose passed on she met the jewish doctor that her mother's friends were always trying to get her to meet, but that is another sttory another time
trying to watch the 6oth anniversity memmorial for that town near Krakow that I can't spell. I heard a group of survivors in a nursing home in florida say that these days are worrying them more than those days.
I read somewhere that someone aranged single atoms of something to spell out I B M, then they snapped a picture of it with an electron microscope.
what has that got to do with the dead?
or nude art
shrug
_____________________
**********************************************************
It was a day for survivors.oh yeah i wanna know
are ya survivors
mAZLO
this bit here added on a saturday, I was looking at the new guy's feet, he took his shoes off in the car and almost killed me with the stench. He was wearing these cheap plastic shoes, he works doubles every day ten hours on his feet, the stench, so I spoke softly and mentioned the stink, kind of like the way I use to joke with him when I had the honor to change his shitty diapers when me and rose used to baby sit him . And it is up against the wall red necked mothers, who have raised your Jewish sons so well, soorry for the rattle, I know my sister tried the best she could, it was the Jewish Doctor syndrome that trashed his childhood, she was pushing thirty and her mother was pushing for a grand child so she married the bear, a man as cold as crazy mike, but he loved her, a one shot one baby kind of affair, so he married her and he was handy with a hammer and nails, which always comes in handy when you are making a nest.....jeez I keep rambling what the bardo is this alll about something visual ain't it, oh well it takes a thousand words sometimes, so the bear did the honorable thing but then after rose passed on she met the jewish doctor that her mother's friends were always trying to get her to meet, but that is another sttory another time
trying to watch the 6oth anniversity memmorial for that town near Krakow that I can't spell. I heard a group of survivors in a nursing home in florida say that these days are worrying them more than those days.
I read somewhere that someone aranged single atoms of something to spell out I B M, then they snapped a picture of it with an electron microscope.
what has that got to do with the dead?
or nude art
shrug
_____________________
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