This is starting to piss me off

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Lightning Rod
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This is starting to piss me off

Post by Lightning Rod » October 6th, 2004, 10:32 am

Perhaps I don't have all the facts
but I know what I am seeing.

It seems that doreen has been banned from the October Earth thingy. I'm not sure why. Levi called her "high maintenance" and while I admit that she can be picky about some things (like her work), I live with her and she is not "high maintenance." Oh, of course she's high maintenance, but she's worth it.

She works hard. She wants to be the best she can. That's why I love her.

Doreen has also worked hard to help build the communities here and for four years at Litkicks. When I first went to Litkicks i assumed that doreen was on the payroll because she was so warm and responsive. Doreen added a lot to Litkicks and has supported that community with her time and her money and her effort. She has supported the events, both live and online, and the publications.

Both yesterday and today she posted to the October Earth subject. Neither of them are published. She has been asked not to participate in the event.

I don't pretend to know what personality matters are at work here. Levi's patience has evidentty been tried because doreen was adamant about her line breaks appearing as she wrote them. She is an artist and one of her mediums is typesetting. She wants it the way she wants it before she puts her name on it. Levi doesn't have enough time to fix the problem but he has enough time to write doreen an email calling her "high maintenance."

Doreen's posts are not the only ones which have been given the blue pencil on October Earth. Another example of this can be seen on Freedom Hall. And another one was mentioned here. I don't like it and I am registering my displeasure here.

I'm a fairly easygoing person. Not much gets my hackles up, but one thing that does is injustice.
"These words don't make me a poet, these Eyes make me a poet."

The Poet's Eye

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judih
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Post by judih » October 6th, 2004, 10:50 am

oh man -
'asked not to participate'?

is october earth a contest with unposted rules?

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Lightning Rod
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Post by Lightning Rod » October 6th, 2004, 10:59 am

yeah judih
I'm shakin' my head
"These words don't make me a poet, these Eyes make me a poet."

The Poet's Eye

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judih
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Post by judih » October 6th, 2004, 11:13 am

where is she? if you're 'pissed off' L-R, then how is she?
Doreen? are you busy making phone calls to the staff?

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Lightning Rod
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Post by Lightning Rod » October 6th, 2004, 11:25 am

she's abed
she had a hard night

yes, when she is upset
it upsets me
"These words don't make me a poet, these Eyes make me a poet."

The Poet's Eye

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abcrystcats
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Post by abcrystcats » October 6th, 2004, 11:52 am

WHAT??????????????

Is this a correct interpretation of events ???

"She has been asked not to participate in the event"

I can hardly believe what I'm seeing and I need to catch my breath, here. I don't even know where to begin ...thoughts are swimming around in my head, but let me try.

First of all, Doreen has created her own unique and dramatically successful website. In a short period of time, a large number of talented people have joined and have been actively using this place for a variety of activities. "High maintenance"? Well, maybe, but professionals usually are, and that is EXACTLY what Doreen is. This website proves it. If Someone at Litkicks feels inadequate to the task of performing a few minor adjustments that Doreen has suggested, they can just be man enough to say, "Gee, I'm sorry, but this is how it is" and go on.

Bumping people from websites because they make you feel technologically impotent, or because you just don't particularly like their personality style is unacceptable to me. I have no idea what happened, of course, but based on what you are saying, Lightning Rod, Someone has gotten too big for their britches.

Doreen is owed an apology and an invitation back to the board. Her last piece (posted here) yesterday was quite good. It deserves to be seen, and she deserves to be heard.

If Doreen can be bumped from the board, then that means anyone who pisses Levi off, even slightly, can easily follow her. I will not be participating until this situation is corrected. If it is a misunderstanding (and I hope it is) then I have misjudged, and I will apologize for my own words, if I need to, but I do not participate in artistic events where people can be banned because of personality differences. That is just too Fascist for my tastes.

P.S. As for the other rejected piece, "Oblivion", I tend to agree with Levi. I don't think it was very well written, and Levi has already made it plain that he will review the writing before it's posted. Fine with me. Reject a piece if it's not good enough. I haven't checked the board today, but I wouldn't be surprised if my last one didn't make it on. But ... DON'T REJECT A PERSON!!!! and for such stupid reasons .... :x

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Post by e_dog » October 6th, 2004, 12:21 pm

there is always the danger with a moderately successful site, that the power and feeling of ownership will get to the creator's head and they will start behaving as an autocrat. as basica as human nature. despite overtures to the idea of 'community' and 'discussion.'

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Doreen Peri
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Post by Doreen Peri » October 6th, 2004, 1:12 pm

Here i am. I'm up now. Time to go to work.

But first, i better answer this post and explain.

As there was no other way to communicate about the project itself in the litkicks October event other than emails and posting directly in the post window to let them know something, I did both.

First, my line breaks to a poem I wrote to the Life After Death topic disappeared and I was unable to edit it and I let them know and asked them to fix it for me, since I couldn't do it myself. I got an email back eventually from Levi telling me he was sorry, but there was only 1 hour to edit. In other words, the post would stand as it is, even though it wasn't my writing and the software either didn't have the capability for him to fix it or he didn't have time.

Second, yesterday I posted my essay about What's Wrong With the World and at the beginning of the essay, I wrote
Title - see title inside tex
Posted by doreen peri

that's supposed to be "text" but it won't let me type the last t in.
my title doesn't fit in the box

I tried to type it in but it cut me off on the final letter of Evolution. Can't some adjustment be made so we can have more characters allotted to the title? That would be very helpful. Also, has the glitch been fixed so I can post poetry so that the software doesn't make my lines run together? Please email me and let me know. doreenperi@aol.com. Thanks! i don't know how else to communicate these issues except right here..

Here's my piece -

The title is "Revolution, Evolution, Ideology & Harsh Realities"
Then I posted my piece.

By midnight, my piece wasn't published and it had the "NOT PUBLISHED" tag on it. I got an email from Levi requesting that I sit this one out and "take a break", expressing that he thought my request for additional character spaces was "demanding". He told me I complained too much. *sigh*

My reply was to let him know that I wasn't being demanding, but only making a suggestion in what I thought was a kind way and that I would still be participating in the October Earth project.

I went, then, to read the next assignment and wrote a poem in response to it taking a chance that the line breaks would be OK once published. I haven't been to the site today so I don't know if it's pubished or not.

They will publish what they want of mine and what they don't want to publish, they won't. If I want to share a piece I wrote which isn't published there, I'll post it here.

As far as I know, I was only asked to "take a break" and I am still participating because I don't want to take a break.

I'm terribly sorry Levi views my suggestions as "complaints" and "demands." I have always been supportive of litkicks (for 4 years, I LIVED there) ... I consistently give to the community. My words, my caring, my suggestions, my support.... in many ways, I have given to that community and I will continue to do so.

My feelings are hurt but hell, my feelings get hurt easily. I cry at commercials. Remember that one when the kids said, "Let's get Mikey! Mikey likes anything!" and then watched him gobble up his cereal? Long time ago... *smile*..... darn thing made me weep. Poor Mikey. The ultimate sucker.

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Post by abcrystcats » October 6th, 2004, 1:31 pm

So ... it sounds a lot better now. More like a lot of emotions flying through the air and misunderstandings, but no one is actually saying "we don't want you here" or anything like that. Am I correct?

Then I definitely owe Levi an apology for calling him a Fascist! :oops:

This is like, the WORST thing someone can tell me -- that someone has been punished or banned because of a difference in opinion. As you can see, I just FLY OFF on my broomstick!!!!

If it's any consolation, we are all experiencing some variation of the difficulties you are having with your line breaks. It may not be pretty, but it certainly puts us all on the same level!

Thanks for clearing it up. I was about to march into battle, guns drawn !!! :wink:

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Post by Doreen Peri » October 6th, 2004, 1:45 pm

No, Cat. It isn't cleared up.

I have been asked not to participate and they are not publishing my pieces.

The poem i wrote last night to today's topic isn't on there and I posted it at ten minutes after midnight last night.

Yes, by asking me not to participate, I'm taking that as "we don't want you here". But maybe I'm wrong?

I don't know. I'll keep posting my pieces and see if they get published. If they don't? I'll post them here if I want.

It isn't a matter of "a difference of opinion." It's a matter of my suggestions being unwelcome and being considered "complaints" rather than suggestions and so, I was asked to "take a break".

As I said above, I don't want to take a break. I want to participate and will continue to do so whether they publish my material or not.

I'm not Dorothy Parker. Just the other DP.

If they choose not to publish my work, maybe they just don't like my writing.

I'm going to keep writing anyway.

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Post by abcrystcats » October 6th, 2004, 2:07 pm

RRRRRRRRRR .... :x

You've received my email, so you know how I feel about this. If they can print all five of the pieces I've written, they can certainly print yours. "Maybe they just don't like my writing" Bullcrackers! Don't fool yourself and don't you believe it!

Not wanting to take your suggestions is no reason to ban your writing altogether. The only way I can imagine that is if you adamantly refused to let him publish it unless he could accomodate the line breaks. Maybe he can't make it work that way, for whatever reason.

Anyhow, you know my position, and you have my full support.

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Post by Doreen Peri » October 6th, 2004, 2:21 pm

Actually, I did say I'd rather have them delete my poem that didn't appear as a poem, but appeared as a jumbled mess of words with no line breaks, then to have it appear that way.

But the request that I "sit this one out" and "take a break" didn't come after that comment. It came to me after I suggested to add more character spaces in the title line if it were possible.

*shrug* I donno. I was just trying to be helpful.

And I think any poet would agree that if their line breaks are gone and it's no longer the poem that they penned, then they'd rather not see it published that way.

That's my opinion.

I will always express my opinions. I was brought up that way. And also, my father taught me, "If you don't ask, you never get an answer." So, this is my personality. I ask questions when I don't know the answer. I make suggestions when I think I have valid input which can help .... I do this in both my work and my personal life and always have.

I've found that most people, including my employers, my clients, my friends, my artistic colleagues, and my family, accept and value my input for what it is.

It's really the only way I know how to be. It's just me. I don't know how to be anyone else but me.

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Post by Zlatko Waterman » October 6th, 2004, 2:23 pm

Dear Doreen:


If anyone is a Johnny-come-lately to message boards, posting, "networking" with others and writing responses to questions posted on "projects" such as October Earth, it is I.

So my little comment below issues from someone not familiar with the protocol and trust built up electronically over years of give and take.

I have, however, coming from the world of print on paper exclusively, been amazed and warmed by the generosity of online "communities." These groups of writers seem largely to function without editors and without anyone asserting him-- or herself into an editorial position.

Since the "editing" ( quotes intended to emphasize that editing is sometimes specious) function is a power spot, many gravitate toward it.

I edited print magazines of various kinds, both as editor-in-chief and contributing editor, for many years. I have been responsible both for fiction and non-fiction prose as well as poetry.

The "action" ( i.e. spontaneous) category of writing was new to me before the computer world opened ( about four years ago) for my scrutiny. In my judgment ( and only mine, and this angle will not be shared by all here), while the medium can be abused and lead to vacuous spouting, many interesting, intricate and powerful pieces have shown themselves on my screen from this "action" form of writing.

The pieces I have read on the October Earth venue seem fairly solid in their composition, not just graspings of the moment spouted out.

My point is that, whoever the editors are on the new LITKICKS site, they appear, from your story above, to be trying to act more like print editors and screeners than the open-ended wielders of "posting policies" exercised by the the older "board" form of LITKICKS.

That, of course, is their prerogative.

I have always read your work with interest, Doreen, from the first time I saw it, and I am sure that, whatever level of "maintenance" it requires, that the effort needed to get it seen in its correct, original form is indispensable.

It seems to me that, given your strength as a writer and your record in sponsoring, nay, creating online communities, you have more expertise than any of us here when it comes to "community" protocols and procedures.

My post is not intended to imply that you, or anyone else, is writing frivolously or too spontaneously. As anyone can tell in my little "testimonial" on my art site ( you so generously made for me), I value spontaneity above all. My work may look lingered over, and often it is, but if it is predictable and boring, without that all-important spark of unexpected energy or twist in direction, it is worthless.

Matters of typography, spelling and punctuation, over which you have been so careful in reproducing my texts ( a care somewhat relaxed by others) show your sharp and attentive craftsmanship in insisting what you have made appear as you have made it, not in some approximate version.

Applause for that! ( can you hear the sound of two hands clapping?)

You are an experienced and careful editor and writer yourself. Your maturity shows in the care you exercise in both those roles.

I find this board a perfectly adequate outlet for the small amount of commentary I wish to write at the moment, and so I will not be contibuting to "October Earth." I have too many other demands on my energy right now.

In gratitude for a wonderful set of boards, sites and opportunities for artists, I thank you for StudioEight, Doreen.

Having dealt with editorial vicissitudes for over thirty years, I send you my sympathy.

p.s.: Here, by the way, is another interesting writers' site. Neil Gaiman is a writer ( he does things other than sf and comic books-- some have called him "The New Stephen King") with a sense of wit and humor and his blog site, whose link can be found here, is worth reading:


(link to Writers' Site--Gaiman's link is on that site . . .)


http://www.writerswrite.com/cgi-bin/wwb ... og=7260401


Zlatko

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Post by abcrystcats » October 6th, 2004, 2:41 pm

Doreen - you don't need me to tell you this, but just keep on "being you" and don't let anyone intimidate you into changing that. The sell-out is when you change in order to please someone else, and not yourself.

Yes, I knew that you would feel strongly about your line breaks in a poem, and no, I can't imagine any poet just accepting the adulterations. You also write good prose, like the piece you posted here. So ... if I was in Levi's place I'd be falling all over myself to post the prose as a way to encourage you to contribute that way instead.

Opinions? Ditto. I have found that the easiest way to cut through the crap in life is to come right out and say what you think and feel. It's risky at times, but I prefer that to evasiveness, any day.

I have to get out of this conversation now and get busy on stuff, but thanks for communicating your feelings. I appreciate it.

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Post by Doreen Peri » October 6th, 2004, 3:20 pm

Zlatko -

Thank you for posting your take on the publishing world and yes, I entirely agree that the project at litkicks is being treated like a print project with comparable editorial control. I very much appreciate you noticing how I am precise in my work and diligent about typesetting and I am honored to display your lovely work on the site! Since I am running behind and the writers pages aren't up yet, there is still room for you there, too. So, if you'd like to send me 5-10 pieces of your choice, I will add you to the writers section.

I guess I am very confused that if the editors at litkicks can go into a piece and capitalize lowercase letters and make other edits to submitted pieces, why wouldn't they want to correct my poetry line breaks for me?

I'm quite sure this situation has nothing to do with the quality of my writing or the extra time needed to correct grammar or punctuation or anything else that an editor is normally concerned with.

It only has to do with one thing. I made suggestions which they took as "complaints" rather than suggestions. But, they certainly took it wrong! I wasn't complaining. I was only trying to help by offering suggestions which I thought would improve the project.

Whatever it is. It is. That's my philosophy of life. I do the best I can and I'm the best me I can be and that's all I know about it. Thank you for your supportive words and input. And for the link! I'll check it out as soon as I have the opportunity!

Cat-

Yeah... I have no choice but to keep being me and no-one will intimidate me not to be. I've been around wayyyy too long to even consider altering the very aspects of my personality which I have already worked hard on to improve in order to BE the best me I can be. You're very kind and supportive and I appreciate your friendship. Thank you!

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