Animals in Translation -- A premature book review

Animal Welfare Issues.
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whimsicaldeb
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Post by whimsicaldeb » March 21st, 2006, 6:57 pm

ps ...

have you ever watched The Dog Whisperer show?
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/c ... whisperer/

After reading Temple's book ~ I wonder if she's watched this show.

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abcrystcats
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Post by abcrystcats » March 26th, 2006, 1:20 am

You're fun to talk to, Deb. I feel like I know you :D We think alike on so many things, I know we'd work great together, and I love your ideas on many topics unrelated to this, our favorite subject.

I haven't seen Dog Whisperer, but haven't you found there is always some frequency, or type of communication, that works best for each species? I have rarely been around horses, and one day I just got up real close to one -- to her head and face, and I started baby talking to her in this little tiny voice. She LOVED it, and started following my face and voice with her movements and even leaning closer to me.

I just learned about meows. I don't know why it never sunk in before that my two ferals DON'T meow. It's because vocalization is a HUMAN form of communication, and domesticated cats quickly pick up the fact that humans respond to sounds. They meow for US. In the wild, it's done far more rarely. I was so pleased when Arizona(feral) meowed for wet food the other day, because now I know she's talking to ME.

I heard part of the NPR interview. Not enough to comment, unfortunately.
but I lied when I was asked: ... did you do that?
Hey, why do you suppose people DO leave their cats intact? And why are they so MAD when you get them fixed? Am I right about it? That they view the cats as toys and hope they just wander off and die before they get tired of 'em? If I didn't have the money to do it, I'd be GRATEFUL if someone kidnapped my cat and took care of it for me.

This family .... it was totally bizarre to me. When the young man got the kitten, he carefully took it to every neighbor to show us and say, "this is my new kitten." He wanted us to help him watch out for him. I told him then that if he was going to let the little bugger roam, he should get him fixed pretty soon. He seemed to understand and agree. I was really nice about it, not lecturing at all. Then after MONTHS had gone by, and after I'd already repeatedly talked to him about it, and after I started seeing the cat doing the typical scary stuff, I took matters into my own hands. But when they moved, they NO LONGER WANTED this supposedly BELOVED PET and GAVE him to my other neighbor!! Lucky for the cat, because he got a truly caring, responsible owner. I would have dated that guy in a heartbeat.

I just don't understand how you can act like you "love" and care about an animal one minute, and then just walk off and leave him with someone else. He was a cool kitty -- good manners, friendly, relaxed, sweet. He didn't even spray in my house BEFORE he got fixed, and you'd think that with all those other cat smells, he'd have freaked out.

I HATE euthanizing them, but I hate watching them hurt even more. And sometimes it seems like the animal is ready and understands, too.

Nature sucks, you are right. It was looking into a kitten's face that got me to believe in God again, but it is watching how they suffer that makes me doubt. How can there be a God if He/She makes innocent creatures hurt like that?


Shortly before I left CA, we had a situation with feral Siamese cat. She was supposed to have been fixed, but somehow the rescuer in charge never got around to it, and she got pregnant. A Hispanic woman was feeding her, but she wasn't allowed to let her inside the house (her husband) and she really didn't know what to feed her. The cat got weird things like breakfast cereal. The lady I worked with was worried that the mom cat was getting lousy nutrition and that her kittens would be born with medical problems and without a chance to get socialized to people and adopted into normal homes. So, for the purpose of protecting the mom and her kittens, and also to get her spayed after the birth, I got the pregnant mom.

Stupid me. I really had NO clue what was the best way to treat that mother cat, and I checked on her several times a day. What an ass I was. I wanted to make sure she was eating and all that. I scared that little girl half out of her wits, and sure enough, she gave birth prematurely, rejected her kittens, and in spite of our rushing them to a vet tech for bottle feeding, they all died within 24 hours after that.

My point in this story is that we TRY to help the wild creatures, but sometimes, in spite of all our best intentions, we make matters worse. I was thinking of that with your little fox squirrel. It must have been very hard for him to focus on getting well with all those BIG MONSTERS (people) hanging around. But you've just got to do it, anyways, and you're right, whatever you did for that fox squirrel was 1000 times better than what he would have gotten out in the woods.

We think they understand our good intentions, but do they?

On the bright side, I believe that some of our companion animals TRULY understand when we are trying to help them, even if it's scary or it hurts them. Sivayan HATES being given medication, or groomed, and yet after I do it, he hangs around and cuddles with me. That's weird because he rarely does that at other times.

On the other hand, I've noticed that some of my cats have LONG memories. I was wondering why Calypso never goes in to get wet food until after I've left the scene -- no matter how many of her friends are in there gulping it down. Oh yeah. She remembers that was the trick I used to get her to adoption events when she was a kitten. She's still afraid that the wet food is a trap, and once she's eating I'll grab her and put her in a carrier. Nefer, my REALLY savage feral, doesn't go near the food at all. She was a colony kitten, lured into a Hav-A-Hart trap in the usual way. She's never forgotten, after all this time. And she'll let me get pretty close to her as I long as I do not touch her.


Who knows what they're all thinking?

Pet vets are often uncomfortable with the idea of grief -- at least the ones I've seen. They seem most comfortable when you show no emotion, or very little, at your pet's passing, and if you can't they seem to prefer that you let them take your dog or cat to a back room. It's not that they are worried that your grief will disturb the ANIMAL. I make it a point to communicate calm and reassurance to the animal until they breathe their last. Then I cry. They worry that your grief will disturb THEM. I can hardly blame them. It's the most difficult part of their jobs. Human doctors don't have to be the angel of death, and the instrument separating you from your loved ones. Even so, I just CAN'T leave the animal alone for their last moment on earth. I may be the only familiar, non-terrifying person in the room. I agree with Temple's idea that FEAR is worse for the animal than death. Perhaps she's right.


Do animals have a soul. Did this little guy … I say yes. And I also say, his presence was not diminished because he died. Instead, it was expanded, because it was set free.
Dang! You keep bringing up these interesting points. "His presence was not diminished because he died. Instead, it was expanded, because it was set free."

I believe that's far more literally true and accurate than you even realize.

And here's another story to help illustrate it:

We had a mall pet store in our town. One day I walked in and found two society finches, newly arrived, brutally feather-picked, shivering pitifully on the bottom of a cage in a drafty corner, on the verge of death. In total rage, I bought the two birds and wrote the nastiest letter of my life to pet shop owner.

I set up a hospital cage on my dining room table with heat lamps, moist towels, soft corn and vegetable bits to eat, and water with antibiotic and vitamin drops. One of the birds started looking better after the first two days. The other struggled, but I could tell he might not make it.

New Year's Eve, I came home from a party and checked on him. He was still alive and just barely hanging on the perch, labored breathing. I did what I could and went to bed.

That night I dreamt about him. He was happy and healthy and all his feathers were grown back. He had bright eyes and was moving around the cage like a normal bird, chirping pleasantly. Then, somehow, he flew between the bars of the cage and out into the open sky. It was such a typical dream, and so cliche that I've rarely mentioned it to anyone, but when I got up, I KNEW that he'd passed on, and the dream was his way of saying goodbye and thank you. I went straight to the cage, and he was there, on the bottom. Goodbye.

The other bird lived for a few years, with my other finches, and seemed pretty content.

Thanks for letting me bore you with all my stories. I LOVE talking about animals with anyone -- especially you.

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Post by whimsicaldeb » April 10th, 2006, 2:35 pm

Ab~Cats, sorry for the long delay in answering … I get sidetracked sometimes. Plus it was spring break for Eric … yada-yada-yada (enough excuses, I’m just bad) ;)
Quote:
but I lied when I was asked: ... did you do that?

Hey, why do you suppose people DO leave their cats intact? And why are they so MAD when you get them fixed? Am I right about it? That they view the cats as toys and hope they just wander off and die before they get tired of 'em? If I didn't have the money to do it, I'd be GRATEFUL if someone kidnapped my cat and took care of it for me.

Yes, you are right about this … and as for why, well – I found out that for guys, the associate the cat getting fixed to having their own balls (you know). Plus, out of ignorance, they want “nature to take it’s course” … but they are so removed from nature really is, what it means, and how it works that they don’t have a clue what that means, nor are they aware (or would believe you if you told them) that they don’t know. They think they know … and that’s enough for them. I remember being that way too when I was in my early 20’s. God ~ what an A-hole I was.

Anyway ~ So, they get a cat (or any animal) and find out just how much work they really are. They require a commitment of time, energy, money; the same a child requires a commitment, and they don’t realize it – nor believe anyone who tells them so. But then they get an animal and find out. To them, what they really wanted was the animal to be a toy like all the other toys, gadgets and gizmos they’ve gotten in their lives – something to get; play with until your bored, and then toss it aside. But then they find out, it’s an animal ~ a being (just like us!). And they’re stuck.

It’s said, that all anger is really anger at ourselves. In cases like this, like the family you described; when they get angry ~ it’s easy to see how that applies. They know. Hopefully, anyway, in their hearts ~ they know. Which would make them ashamed; which is covered by the anger.

What you did for the cat was the best thing, and you know it … and in their hearts, so do they ~ and that’s why they get angry. You did something that for whatever reason they didn’t (or couldn’t) do; You did the best thing; and they didn’t. Good for the cat, immediately, and maybe even good for the family too … maybe this was exactly what was needed to have the message ‘sink in’ and next time they will get pets, they’ll get them fixed.
I HATE euthanizing them, but I hate watching them hurt even more. And sometimes it seems like the animal is ready and understands, too.
Yeah …
I really had NO clue what was the best way to treat that mother cat, and I checked on her several times a day. What an ass I was. I wanted to make sure she was eating and all that. I scared that little girl half out of her wits, and sure enough, she gave birth prematurely, rejected her kittens, and in spite of our rushing them to a vet tech for bottle feeding, they all died within 24 hours after that.
That’s called living & learning ~ the hard way. And it’s you and me and everyone else learning that way as well. Including the animals!

I have my own story; a pair of mourning doves had made their nest in the wisteria branches covering our trellis that’s over our deck. They had two eggs in the nest. Well, the neighbors cat figured out they had a nest up there and climbed up on top of the trellis and began nosing around. In trying to shoo the cat away with a broom handle – I hit the nest and juggled it enough to have both the eggs drop out and break at my feet. I felt sooooo bad. Oh ~ just awful. This was before I began working with wildlife – before Lindsay. When I was at Lindsay I happened to bring it up and everyone began telling all their stories of trying to help but ending up not helping at all. As for the doves (and all birds), Dr. Nancy was the one who told us that part of learning for young birds – especially modo’s (our nickname for mourning doves) – is learning where and how to make nests in safe places, that last. That they also learn by trial & error, and that’s how the strongest of species goes on. It’s part of that “survival of the fittest” action, in action.

The same would be true of your momma cat. Cats can become overly skidish to their own detriment. It might have been her first litter. You just don’t know.
My point in this story is that we TRY to help the wild creatures, but sometimes, in spite of all our best intentions, we make matters worse.
Exactly. And – life is not an exact science. We could do everything right, and still have things end badly.
We think they understand our good intentions, but do they?
I don’t know if they understand our good intentions or not. I know they understand our moods – they can feel those. We humans can as well, when we pay attention. We can tell when someone is pissed off at us – without them even saying anything; we can pick up those vibes. Animals do it all the time. I don’t know if that would mean they can tell I have good intentions, but they can certainly tell the difference between if I’m scared or relaxed when I’m working with them. And they do relax, I’ve seen and felt them relax, when I’m relaxed – or when I relax.

Wild animals do not like being touched by humans, period. But most will tolerate it when the ‘feel’ our authority in our handling of them. They relax and except it. But as soon as we let them go … they’re back to wanting to get away, or kill us, again. :D Which is good!
Pet vets are often uncomfortable with the idea of grief -- at least the ones I've seen. They seem most comfortable when you show no emotion, or very little, at your pet's passing, and if you can't they seem to prefer that you let them take your dog or cat to a back room. It's not that they are worried that your grief will disturb the ANIMAL. I make it a point to communicate calm and reassurance to the animal until they breathe their last. Then I cry. They worry that your grief will disturb THEM. I can hardly blame them. It's the most difficult part of their jobs. Human doctors don't have to be the angel of death, and the instrument separating you from your loved ones. Even so, I just CAN'T leave the animal alone for their last moment on earth. I may be the only familiar, non-terrifying person in the room. I agree with Temple's idea that FEAR is worse for the animal than death. Perhaps she's right.
Oh yeah ~ I agree, 100%. Well said, too.
That night I dreamt about him. He was happy and healthy and all his feathers were grown back. He had bright eyes and was moving around the cage like a normal bird, chirping pleasantly. Then, somehow, he flew between the bars of the cage and out into the open sky. It was such a typical dream, and so cliche that I've rarely mentioned it to anyone, but when I got up, I KNEW that he'd passed on, and the dream was his way of saying goodbye and thank you. I went straight to the cage, and he was there, on the bottom. Goodbye.

Oh!!!!!!!! I’m so glad you shared this with me. I get these dream goodbye’s too! They’re so special. There is more to life than what we see, or think we know … and animals are there too.

Thank you, Ab~Cats. Thank you.

Happy day...

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Post by abcrystcats » April 11th, 2006, 12:24 am

Thanks for such a detailed response, Deb. Your encouragement means a lot to me.

I had forgotten that I told you that horrible story about the feral mom. It was her second litter, actually. I still feel culpability -- guilt even -- about what happened. Everyone had different advice for me then, and since I was anxious about it, I took the over-controlling side of the advice.

I was a lot better with bird families. Because they were smaller, I seemed to know they needed peace and quiet. Still, I jury-rigged platforms out of cardboard just below the nest baskets in case any babies fell from the nest. I didn't want them to hit the cage floor and not be able to get back in. Those platforms saved a couple lives, and they didn't disturb the nesting families.
In cases like this, like the family you described; when they get angry ~ it’s easy to see how that applies. They know.
That is a good answer and explains a LOT about human nature -- my own, included. Thanks for the wisdom and insight here. I appreciate it.

As for human people thinking cats NEED to have their sexual functions to be happy -- that's interesting. I'm NOT SURE what they need to be happy!!! I know the Chinese eunuchs felt horribly stigmatized by their castration and it caused them lifelong, profound misery. What's cat culture like? What do they THINK???

The other day I looked up from my reading to see Angel sitting placidly on the sofa opposite, and Monkey straddling her in exactly the right position for mating and .... biting the nape of her neck! She had this tolerant look, like "Yeah, right, whatever Big Boy" on her face, but what blew me away is that he NEVER has had a chance to mate in his LIFE. He was neutered the week that he sprayed the clothes in my laundry basket. He has the beginnings of tomcat jowls, but no other secondary sexual characteristics.

So, WHY did he do that?? And how did he know exactly what to do? What position to take? About the biting part? It would be easy to say that it's "instinct" but what the hell that is, no one has ever been able to tell me. It's "hard-wired" into their brain. Yeah, right. I don't know if it was "hard-wired" into mine. I think I learned from sex education class and whispering, and then even when I had to do it the first time, it took some manuevering. So how does this VIRGIN CAT KNOW????

And the bigger question is, does he KNOW what it's all about? I've seen him try that before on Angel or one of other girls. He always picks girls.

So, I don't KNOW if they are happier neutered. I only know that the life of a sexually intact cat is "nasty, brutish and short." I know that there are far too many cats in the world and far too few homes to hold them. I know that this way they have health, plenty to eat, a great social life and plenty of LOVE and amusement.

Do they miss having kittens? I think they do. I know that when I still rescued and was able to bring vaccinated kittens into the house, all the young adults would rally around them. They'd protect them, love them, play with them, teach them the ropes. I hardly had to do anything with some of them. I owe a lot to my cats for teaching the kittens what I could not teach them.

But then there's that GRIEF. I had a fabulous mother cat once who raised six kittens (two of them adopted) in my spare bedroom. We found good homes for them all, and then mom just CRIED and CRIED. I remember our Siamese doing the same thing after both of her litters were "sold." Yech. The great mom got a great home. She lives now with my brother and sister in law and my nephew.

But it all boils down to the fact that NOTHING we do with our companion animals is NATURAL for them, in any way. We take away their sexuality. We take away the normal course of parenthood from them, we take them away from the outdoors.

It's all in the interest of saving them and helping them, but is it? Are we really doing that?

I suppose it's a rhetorical question, since I already can answer it myself.

What we do is for their good. It's better than having them shot as vermin, better than having them run over by cars or dying of antifreeze poisoning. It's better than four little kittens slowly starving to death because mom doesn't get enough to eat. It's better than two toms ripping each other apart for the chance of a few seconds of sperm dissemination with a fertile female .... and the loser limping off to die.

But still, it must affect them in some way to be without these natural things.

This one I've got in my lap. She and her siblings were starving. Mom had no more milk. She was a skeleton. And she had once been a domestic cat. The five kittens and mom were taken to the local pound where they were going to be put to death. The kittens were sick -- upper respiratory, a little eye infection setting in, and ringworm -- they were all DIVING into a bowl of wet food, headfirst, and gorging themselves, when my rescue coordinator walked in. The shelter staff told her, "You don't want these. They're sick; they're going to die."

Should they have been allowed to die of slow starvation, outside? The "natural" way? Or given a humane euthanasia?

Some human being worked her butt off to give them life and health. After that, she found good homes for each little kitten and the mom too.

I've gotta go with that. As long as we mess with the natural world and all the creatures in it, the way we've been doing, then any extra we can do to give the weaker ones a survival advantage has merit.

I ask myself sometimes, but the real answer is that, thanks to us, "natural" is hardly even an option any more.

Other things:
Cats can become overly skidish to their own detriment.
Oh no. I don't blame the cat. There's a reason for everything. Even the ferals I have now have their reasons for fearing people. I have to respect that. It was stupid of me not to have respected that in a feral mom-cat.
Wild animals do not like being touched by humans, period. But most will tolerate it when the ‘feel’ our authority in our handling of them. They relax and except it. But as soon as we let them go … they’re back to wanting to get away, or kill us, again. Which is good!
Yeah, it's interesting. At my last check, one of my ferals will try to rip my hand off if I touch her. Literally. The other one simply cowers in a corner until I pick her up by the scruff of the neck. I can carry her where I want (I've had handbags that resisted me more,lol!) but when I put her down she runs off. She never seeks me out for closeness and if I try to pet her she freaks out and runs.

Then I have other cats that are "tame" until I want them to do something. Mendelssohn and Lazslo will cuddle happily with me in their designated spots, but if I want to put them in a carrier, or confine them to a room, forget it. They'll rip me a new one.

Who chose all these personalities for them? Degrees of trust?

That's why I love cats. There are as many cat types as there are human types.

I love all animals though. I saw this dog by the convenience store this evening and worried that she'd been tied there and abandoned. I was already planning how to help her in my mind when I saw that her owner had taken her away. I am overly vigilant about it, but I've seen plenty of animals treated badly. The bile rises in my throat when I go to a pound. How can people leave their animals like that? What makes them think their convenience is more important than an animal's life?

I wish someone would tell me. I'd love to argue the point. I'm sick of being nice about it.

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Post by whimsicaldeb » April 30th, 2006, 4:41 pm

update, as promised I'd reply when Dr. Nancy had finished reading the book.

She enjoyed the book, and only complaint was that Temple used being a scientist to qualify many things that were not in fact scientific results but personal experiences instead. Surprisingly, those places were the same places I had made notes to myself about in the margins as I read basically saying “there could be other reasons that’s she’s not considering” and Dr. Nancy by saying that as a scientist she should have/needs to. And that she’s walking the edge of being unethical when she states things as fact that have not been fully tested. Dr. Nancy trained eyes more quickly picked out where she was mixing some fully tested facts with many of Temple’s own untested conclusions.

Here’s the thing of it, scientific testing is time consuming and tedious … and in a vast majority of cases, it does end up supporting what we already know. In this case, animals feel; they think; they are affect by humans in their environments and influences – so that while many of her conclusions are correct; scientifically they are still ‘unproven’ … and so Dr. Nancy would have preferred that Temple had written the book exclusively from a place of this is my experience and my thoughts and why … rather than from the place of a scientist. Because as a scientific document – or source. It fails. Not that she’s failed, or inaccurate … only that from a professional stand point (rather than laymen such as myself); it’s not as well done as it could/should have been.

One of the things I was curious about was coyotes’s going on killing sprees for no apparent reason … and she said “Oh yes, they do – many animals do that.” It actually is a much more common thing than Temple knows, probably because he exposure had been limited to almost exclusively domestic animals. I didn’t know, I thought in the wild they didn’t do this, that these actions was a response to our encroaching civilizations … but she no, they’ve always done this. We just aren’t aware of this any longer because of the distance our “civilized” lives create from their lives, their real lives.

Anyway .. That’s my update. I’ve passed the book along to Cal to read next. I enjoyed Temple’s book, and can easily recommend reading it … and so could she. However she did think Temple was a little bit too close (off) with those cows and their licking of her.

I understood.
:D

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