Sunday Stream (32) - The Third Place

[jimboloco]

and then there's the fifth estate
anarchist rag in detroit during my down and out days there, 70's,
wrote a letter to them, "see yourseld embedded in the milky-way!"

boundaries are inventions that describe, alienate, conquer, hate, yet
when we make friends, the boundaries are relaxed.

how can sitting save this world?
dharma talk from soen su nim.

The road at the bottom of Won Gak Mountain
is not the present road.
The man climbing with his backpack
is not a man of the past.
'fok, tok, tok - his footsteps
transfix past and present.
Crows out of a tree.
Caw, caw, caw.

http://kwanumzen.com/zen.html

keeping that "don't know" mind!

[mtmynd]

jimbo... thanks for the link and the reply.


don't 'know'... that is limited... boundaries... mind

don't know 'mind'... that is physical limitation

'know' is mind

know-ing is the act of mind

no-mind... encompasses without boundaries

limitless... beyond mind

no know mind

know now

mind knows not now

now is zen

eternal once began

mind words inhibit now

now is limitless

no beginning no end

know that

now

no mind

no thing

now in the now

brown cow

[whimsicaldeb]

Panta wrote:

wisdom lies within the ability
to flow to and fro from one and the other -
to balance not only the yin and the yang
but also the experience and the observation.

the third place must be something beyond a place,
a motion rather than a state or standpoint.

it must transcend both the observer's and the affected one's position,
so that it doesn' make us "move between" these two,
but make both observation and direct experience
our free and constant movement itself,
in which we feel true and authentic.

Agreed, and this tread, topic, and replies reminds me of this from HH:

Non-violence and peace

“Non-violence and peace do not mean that we remain indifferent, passive. I believe that as long as human beings remain, as long as human intelligence is present, some kind of conflict remains. If we look at contradictory ideas, they are not necessarily negative. Forces that contradict one another are the basis of further development. What we need is a method, a technique, to overcome these contradictions. That is compromise. In today’s reality the only way to solve a problem is compromise. Since your interest is very much related with others’ interest, you can’t sacrifice others’ interests. Therefore compromise, 50-50.

– H.H. the Dalai Lama, from “The Art of Peace: Nobel Peace Laureates Discuss Human Rights, Conflict, and Reconciliation”


And compromising HAS been happening more lately ...
in my own personal life, as well as happening even now, in our "messed up" country … in our Senate most recently. (amazingly enough) It's there, if we are willing to look for it, and help make it happen.

Being true to ourselves, knowing what that means, how to live this; and learning when to compromise - when to hold the line; I think this is what we (the collective human race) are currently learning together, globally.


.....

Cecil wrote:

Did the words of Siddartha speak to humanity or just to a chosen few? Did the words of Jesus speak to all of humanity or just to a chosen few? How about the words of Mohammed... did his words speak to only the people of the Middle East or to all of humanity? For any religion to deny all of humanity is an injustice to humanity. Religion must speak to all of mankind to be believable, to be accepted, to be embraced as some article of Truth.

Cecil, I disagree with only one thing; and that is that we need “Religion” to speak for us. In fact, I think it’s the speaking of religions, rather than the speaking of the persons/people themselves, that have caused (and continue to cause) more stress and strife (wars); instead of lessening them.

Jesus, Siddartha, Mohammed, HH the Dalai Lama – they are not (were not) religions; they were/are people … being true to themselves, living their personal connections with God – and religions were formed around them, and from their/those personal experiences, to help those who have not had their own personal experiences/connection yet. They had too ... they had no way to talk globally with each other then, as we do now. We had to grow into this, and religion helped us at the time. But just like how we out grow out of our "training wheels" ... we grow out of our religions as well and simply live our personal spiritualities.

That’s why we can not allow religion to “speak for us” –– because it is inexperienced. Because it’s a learning tool, and not the learned (wisdom) itself.

We (collectively) must learn (are learning) to speak to all mankind (each other), beyond (above, over through) all our religions. And as we do, we are saving ourselves and gaining ourselves in the process.

~d

--edited for typos ~ and I sure I got them all (this time!)
~lol~

[mtmynd]

Howdy, Deb! Very informed reply.

I agree with you on what you said about religion. Although I didn't say we 'need' religion I do understand what you're saying here. You and I (and many others!) do not 'need' religion, but have experienced religion before we 'dropped the training wheels'... and for sure, there are multitudes that still 'need' religion to at least have some grasp (however firm) of spirituality, which is the essence of religion(s), at least principally.

Very true that Jesus, Siddartha, et al, were not religions (I had written something about that a while back...). It is the followers who have created the religion. Is not any religion a followers faith...? That would be a separate converstion itself.

When I wrote, "religion must speak to all of mankind to be believable, to be accepted, to be embraced as some article of Truth." I was attempting to speak for the 'cause' of religion... the purpose which I see is to begin the path for those that seek the greater mysteries of life, a path that most have little interest in pursuing.. and so religion remains in its infancy. The problem with this 'infancy' is that it inhibits those that desire to pursue the further mysteries from doing so, thus giving religion somewhat of a 'bad rap' in the eyes of those same people that want to experience more. Is that not what happened to Jesus or Siddartha..? They desired more than their religion(s) preached... they set upon their own paths... pilgrims to the cause, so to speak.

Enough.

Thanks for chiming in on this one! I do appreciate it muchly.

Cecil

[Arcadia]

cecil: el silencio... (sí, entiendo tu español & gracias por la respuesta!).
panta: I like what you said in the way you said it.
interesting thread,

Arcadia

[whimsicaldeb]

Cecil wrote:

...and so religion remains in its infancy. The problem with this 'infancy' is that it inhibits those that desire to pursue the further mysteries from doing so, thus giving religion somewhat of a 'bad rap' in the eyes of those same people that want to experience more.

It’s only ‘bad’ (in fact or reputation) when people/groups etc: either hold onto it too long –– or expect it to be/do more than it really is, or can. However, when it’s let go of; it’s a completely different experience.

IMO; religion is not in its infancy; but instead has outlived it’s maximum efficiency – is now old, and is passing away (as it should/must)

"The world, as we know it, is coming to an end. The world as the center
of the Universe, the world divided from the heavens, the world bound by
horizons in which love is reserved for the members of the in group: that
is the world that is passing away.” - Joseph Campbell

… And all the problems we are facing now are being created by those reluctance in letting it go – because it’s passing away … they’re scared.

But what Jesus and others show us is that this letting go; of religion; our bodies; whatever – is “Okay!” – and what we’re suppose to doing; and that by doing this; we live our most authentic lives … where nothing (not even religion) stands between and God/Spirit/Source/Oneness.

Religion has done it’s function: it’s been a good buffer, a good guide and guidepost to something larger; but it’s function is complete and it's our continued insistence of clinging to our beliefs (both old & new) that continue to be the main cause us all pain and suffering … and our letting go of them that bring us relief:

Example from an article I posted in “Eyewitness Reports” here at Studio 8:

Excerpt from: Afghan women still face abuse
http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cct ... 773349.htm

"Societal codes, invoked in the name of tradition and religion, are used as justification for denying women the ability to enjoy their fundamental rights. Perceived transgressions of such codes have led to the imprisonment and even killing of some women,"

(cutting)

Since the fall of the Taliban in 2001, millions of women and girls have returned to work and school. Equality is embedded in a new constitution, and some women have abandoned the head-to-toe public veiling that was mandatory under the tough Islamic regime.

---end excerpt


Religion along with societal codes are all things; things created by mankind (human kind – not God) … and ours to use as we choose; but once created – also have their own life cycle.

I think religion; that which helped us all so much when we were separate – is now no longer helping; and as such .. It’s time for passing has come, is here. And it’s painful for some … some are reluctant –– and others like myself have been looking forward to this for a long time.

[jimboloco]

how now brown cow
a set of precepts is good
my karma ran over my dogma!

http://www.webundies.com/images/fb099t.jpg

"The world, as we know it, is coming to an end. The world as the center
of the Universe, the world divided from the heavens, the world bound by
horizons in which love is reserved for the members of the in group: that
is the world that is passing away.” - Joseph Campbell

It's what we saw from September 11th, the outpouring of sentiment, yet
how the hue and cry changed with the wars that followed,
hooray for our side.

while we are embedded in this dilemma, seeing through it is helpful and mindfulness is an important discipline especially while keeping that don't know mind. Takes courage, grace, and respite.

[whimsicaldeb]

In the name of ....!!!!

HOW NOW BOXER SHORTS

I proclaim

dogma



(a very funny movie!)
http://www.dogma-movie.com/

Bethany: What's he like? God?
Metatron: Lonely. But funny. He's got a great sense of humor.

and karma
(a dear friend of mine, as a matter of fact)
http://karmaskorner.com/

are both a few of my favorite things ....

http://karmaskorner.com/laughing/l5.html
Church Humor

These sentences actually appeared in a church bulletin or were announced in a church service:

Bertha Belch, a missionary from Africa will be speaking tonight at Calvary Memorial Church in Racine. Come tonight and hear Bertha Belch all the way from Africa.

Announcement in the church bulletin for a National Prayer and Fasting conference; "The cost for attending the Fasting and Prayer conference includes meals."

Our youth basketball team is back in action Wednesday at 8 PM in the recreation hall. Come out and watch us kill Christ the King.

Miss Charlene Mason sang "I will not pass this way again" giving obvious pleasure to the congregation.

"Ladies, don't forget the rummage sale. It's a chance to get rid of those things not worth keeping around the house. Don't forget your husbands."

Next Sunday is the family hay ride and bonfire at the Fowlers'. Bring your own hot dogs and guns. Friends are welcome! Everyone come for a fun time.

The peacemaking meeting scheduled for today has been canceled due to a conflict.

The sermon this morning; "Jesus Walks on the Water" The sermon tonight; "Searching for Jesus"

Next Thursday there will be tryouts for the choir. They need all the help they can get.

Barbara remains in the hospital and needs blood donors for more transfusions. She is also having trouble sleeping and requests tapes of Pastor Jack's sermons.

During the absence of our Pastor, we enjoyed the rare privilege of hearing a good sermon when J.F. Stubbs supplied the pulpit.

The Rector will preach his farewell message after which the choir will sing "Break Forth into Joy."

Remember in prayer the many who are sick of our community.

Don't let worry kill you off - let the Church help.

Irving Benson and Jessie Carter were married on October 24 in the church. So ends a friendship that began in their school days.

A bean supper will be held on Tuesday evening in the church hall. Music will follow.

At the evening service tonight, the sermon topic will be "What is Hell?" Come early and listen to our choir practice.

Eight new choir robes are currently needed due to the addition of several members and to the deterioration of some older ones.

The senior choir invites any member of the congregation who enjoys sinning to join the choir.

Scouts are saving aluminum cans, bottles, and other items to be recycled. Proceeds will be used to cripple children.

The Lutheran men's group will meet at 6 PM. Steak, mashed potatoes, green beans, bread and dessert will be served for a nominal feel.

For those of you who have children and don't know it, we have a nursery downstairs.

Please place your donation in the envelop along with the deceased person(s) you want remembered.

Attend and you will hear an excellent speaker and heave a healthy lunch.

The church will host an evening of fine dining, superb entertainment, and gracious hostility.

Potluck supper Sunday at 5:00 PM - prayer and medication to follow.

The ladies of the Church have cast off clothing of every kind. They may be seen in the basement on Friday afternoon.

This evening at 7 PM there will be a hymn sing in the park across from the Church. Bring a blanket and come prepared to sin.

The pastor would appreciate it if the ladies of the congregation would lend him their electric girdles for the pancake breakfast next Sunday morning.

Low Self Esteem Support Group will meet Thursday at 7 PM. Please use the back door.

The eighth-graders will be presenting Shakespeare's Hamlet in the Church basement Friday at 7 PM. The Congregation is invited to attend this tragedy.

Weight Watchers will meet at 7 PM at the First Presbyterian Church. Please use large double door at the side entrance.

The Associate Minister unveiled the church's new tithing campaign slogan last Sunday: "I Upped My Pledge - Up Yours."

Our next song is "Angels We Have Heard Get High."


...... Don't let worry kill you off - let the Church help.

~heeeeeeeeeeeheeeeeeeeeeeeeheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee~

[mtmynd]

Deb... the most current estimate that I can find regarding the world's religions shows that only 16% claim 'non-religious', i.e. atheist, agnostic, none, etc.. While the largest is Christianity (all branches) with 33% followed by Islam (21%), Hinduism (14%) and on and on.

The point I'm trying to make is that despite what you (and I and many others) feel about religions, the vast majority of the world's population is loyal to one religion or another. Even if what is happening because of religions,(war particularly) it seems to make little difference in the numbers of adherents.

Mankind has a very long way to go before they 'let go of' religion.

[whimsicaldeb]

Cecil:
Mankind has a very long way to go before they 'let go of' religion.

ummmm … perhaps

But Cecil, be careful; stated as such, is to continue to make it so. And then things continue to look so far, far away … that are really quite close.

The INSTANT (the very instant) our perception is change; PRESTO; we’re there … and what looked like such a long, long way reveals itself to be the self created illusion it was.

...letting go doesn't mean anyone loses anything (including religion) …
it simple means we’ve stopped squeezing the life out of …(whatever) ... and the whatever is now no longer the main or total focus of our live like it used to be … that’s all.

But it doesn’t mean it’s gone; it’s still there and available, if needed or necessary. It’s just that we find it’s not as needed or necessary as it was originally, currently perceived to be.

“The world that we have made as a result of the level of thinking we have done thus far creates problems we cannot solve at the same level of thinking at which we created them." - Albert Einstein


So ... we change our thinking, we change the way we think.

Cecil:
...it seems to make little difference in the numbers of adherents.

~heeeheeeheeee~

From small beginnings come great things.
Dutch Proverb

And my other favorite

"If you think you are too small to make a difference;
try sleeping in a closed room with a mosquito." - African Proverb



(me)BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz away ….

[stilltrucking]

text box yellow fonts
begins here:
the sun has set.

text box gray fonts on gray back ground begins here:

[jimboloco]

Welll we dug the movie Dogma, glad you reminded me of it!

Happy hippy summer Trucker !

[gypsyjoker]

You son of bitch, look what you made me do. First post in three days. Thanks bro, cecil and LR convinced me I need a break, i got an email from a friend of LR, he corected me on my Ray Nitzke quote, I wrote him back and assured him I had it right because I had quoted from The Faith Of A Heretic, by Walter Kaufmann who is a well respected Nietzsche scholar. there is a link he sent me back, I think it was healingreligiondotcom. I posted the url at Hester's place. I also told him I used to think clay was a bull Sh*ter, but I believe he really does attract lighning. I hope I don't bring any avenging christians his way. And cecil, I don't know why I have a chip on my shoulder with him. I suspect it is jealously that he has a soulmate in SooZen. Same with LR, i been listening to the Illiad to much. It is what I use to sleep fast. bits of language float in to mind, "the whispering sea". Theomacy the word of the day, writers who used it very successfully Marx, Freud, and Homer.

a long haired radical socialist jew
call it like i see it
then they made him into god.
or was he?
temptations all around
born again buddhists
change yer mind day

Yeah kaufmann is a strange dude, read that essay by him on healingreligion, and you will have compassion on that mighty smighty god of the hebrews

not sure about spelling of theomachy, it was a link in that email I sent you
"I got gaes to scan."

now leave me alone


edit
dogma I got to see that movie. The Quackers (aka the religous society of ducks) don't have a dogma, maybe a catma, but I remember the first time I checked out the Meeting House on charles st around JHU campus. Reminded me of the 19th century shul on lomabard st (aka Jewtown) I felt at home. The way I did for awhile on litkicks. The way I do here. How can someone in their forties say "dues fucking paid" Levi calls Cecil friend. And any friend of Levi's is a friend of mine. I come here because it is as close to Silent Meeting as I can get these days.

________________________________________________

[whimsicaldeb]

gypsyjoker wrote: dogma I got to see that movie.

yesyes!

a little more temptation (reason) perhaps ....


http://www.dogma-movie.com/pics/rickman/rickmannf.html
The Dickless Alan Rickman
Alan and Ken. Alan holds the doll that inspired his smooth-crotch look.

you'll need to watch the movie to know why Alan Rickman (a complete hottie! i'm a total fan) is dickless.

~heee!~

[jimboloco]

As I recall, he is an angel in the movie.....wonder what the big one is like? They never showed HHer!