Sunday Stream (223) ~ Task Master

Poetic insight & philosophy by Cecil Lee.

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Sunday Stream (223) ~ Task Master

Post by mtmynd » November 15th, 2009, 1:26 pm

Task Master
or
Reflecting on Hu'manity
"The rocks are where they are - this is their will. The rivers flow - this is their will. The birds fly - this is their will. Human Beings talk - this is their will. The seasons change, heaven sends down rain or snow, the earth occasionally shakes, the waves roll, the stars shine - each of them flows its own will. To be is to will and so is to become." - D.T. Suzuki[/size]

Perhaps not one of D.T.'s better quotations, but it certainly gives one pause to think, even for a brief moment before returning to their task.

How about -

"To be a man of knowledge one needs to be light and fluid." - Yaqui Mystic

My guess on this is it would take a man of knowledge to know what this Mystic means. Others would more than likely shake their heads and return to their task.

"If you wish to drown do not torture yourself with shallow water." - Hungarian Proverb

I easily imagine one silently repeating this Proverb over and over in their head after returning to their task... a mantra or a
contemplation.

Suzuki comes back to mind with "Human Beings talk - this is their will." We are a chatty species aren't we? All these quotations, these words strung together to make theories, philosophies, fictional imaginings, histories, religions... wonderings and wanderings on this or that. We love our voice, our ideas, our thoughts to become...

We make sounds to fill the air not only with our words but with the sounds our hands can make and we call it 'music.' Wonderful music that speaks a language more universal than our words, whose meanings are far more limited than the music we make to speak of and to the spirit of our life in all it's varied forms.

Amidst all the sounds that humans create, none can be more annoying (or should be) than the sounds of war... the guns firing bullets at their targets, the loud sounds of canon exploding, the bombs of death and destruction meant to serve only one purpose - to kill. And of course, the screams of fear and death not knowing if you're the next to be slain in these senseless wars over what..?

Humans we are, and act according to our will as best as we can interpret that will of ours. But we're not sure... not absolutely positive that what we do is the best that can be done but only the most obvious thing(s) we can do at the moment. There is so much to be done we just tackle our tasks to keep moving on. But moving on is not always forward, at least in direction. We may take the long way to achieve the necessary. We often take the most expedient way to hurry it along... we don't really enjoy those tasks too much...

We've gotten a lot done over the time we've been occupants of this planet Earth. Over 2 million years have passed since we became and here we are, so many, many years later and we are still talking, still chattering about this and about that... some of which we listen to and so much that goes in one ear and out the other. Where we are headed is always a great subject, especially for the thinkers. The not so much thinkers don't give that question to much time... there's a lot we humans have to do and thinking abstractly is not a high priority. Good thing we have folks that like to grow crops and raise protein and have interest in health and well-being.

So many tasks and so many words. We've evolved with our tasks and our words... possibly more than we've ever had. This may be simply due to numbers... 6+billion strong creates that many more tasks and that many more words... questions. in particular. Imagine 6+ billion questions every 3 minutes or so seeking answers...

The cacophony of it all can undermine the peace that we all seem to want as an escape from all that we do.


cecil
15 noviembre 2009

Picture of the Week:
Reflective Tree
Image
Last edited by mtmynd on November 16th, 2009, 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by mnaz » November 15th, 2009, 10:40 pm

I'll have to come back to this one, Cec. Kind of "running on fumes" today. Running behind. Brings to mind those "master and slave morality" postulations put out by Nietzsche (and bastardized by various wanna-be Nazis from time to time ever since).

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Post by the mingo » November 16th, 2009, 12:52 pm

I read this one eating toasted English muffins. Real butter, peanut butter, jam, the works. Then I had to find a towel to wipe the butter off my fingers. Speaking of questions that need to be answered I bought a Jeep for myself earlier this year. But Nancy is in it all the time. I never see it anymore unless she is home. Hard to believe she looked askance at it when I first bought it. She said & I quote; "I don't know about this." But now she refers to it as "her Jeep". How does this happen? Why does it happen? Do I trace it back to the apple, or what? I've thought that perhaps it happens for the sole purpose of advancing humor's cause in the scheme of things as in : (I'm quoting the following from somewhere I don't know where anymore) ...as in; "I've never understood why the Lord went & made a woman out of a perfectly good rib." This all comes up this morning cuz I've been out running around in my ol' 'doba. Even after I bought myself a Jeep. Because the Jeep is with Nancy down to her job. In fact I even pulled in next to it in the parking lot of where she works. And where do I find Nancy? She's out back of the trash dumpsters with her boss smoking cigarettes. I get back in the 'doba after stroking the taillights of my Jeep just to let her know I miss her then the 'doba and me go puttering off. Followed the river out of town & I'm driving along in my ancient Chrysler. Ya know this car is almost half my age. My youngest son is the same age as this car and he's just shy of thirty. This ol' girl, with the addition of new pads for the front brakes passed New York state vehicle inspection just two weeks ago. She's good to go.
A few miles out of town I turned east from the river & headed for the lodge. I backed into the driveway and shut her down. Took the key out of the ignition. Opened the door, got out, & was immediately bathed in the sweet scent of all the uncounted millions of leaves that have fallen to the ground in the last weeks. Ya know what amazes me? That a man should find himself anywhere at all at anytime ever.
Doll, you may have found a place of rest but I'm still on the trail.

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Post by Arcadia » November 16th, 2009, 9:39 pm

wow! beautiful photo! :)

& gracias for the stream, Cecil!

saludos,

Arcadia

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Post by Artguy » November 17th, 2009, 8:53 am

The sounds that are the echoes of our will ...sounds to destroy...sounds to love..the choice is ours...

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Post by mtmynd » November 17th, 2009, 9:57 am

el mingo: "Ya know what amazes me? That a man should find himself anywhere at all at anytime ever."

Finding ourselves when we feel lost is a remarkable experience... finding our Self when all is lost is even more amazing... a gift that keeps on giving. ;)

Good to see you in Stream Country, el mingo. Thanx for the great Jeep story, told as only you can do... I appreciate it, muchly!

_______

'V', amiga mia... gracias otro vez! :) Glad you liked el foto... taken in the morning while on my walk, it had rained well the night before and the puddles were deep and silent that calm and cool day... what we call a "Kodak moment"... ;)

_______

Kurt! Choices. Yes... they spring from the duality of life, that yin/yang-ness that seems insurmountable at times, frustrating other times, and a welcome friend when all else fails. The choice is always ours, indeed.

Thanx for stopping in...
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Post by the mingo » November 17th, 2009, 11:55 am

I get here more often than I say Cec...I often come to see what's drifting through the loom of your mind. Every so often something you say will kick me off to orbit my own interstellar dust & gas cloud & I'm a telegraph line passing messages across western Nebraska & into Wyoming sometime in the spring of 1870. A hunting party of Indians passes over the ridge a couple of miles distant. Then there is only the sound of the wind.
Doll, you may have found a place of rest but I'm still on the trail.

Non Sum

Post by Non Sum » November 17th, 2009, 10:26 pm

I enjoyed it, thank you MTmynd.
But tell me Cecil, is the yin/yang of your tree intentionally reflective of the yin/yang of these last two topics: Silence/ followed by /cacophony of talk? Or, is this just the serendipidous workings of the Tao? Not to say (and Shirley none would) that Cecil, and his well considered workings, are not themselves the glorious working of Tao.

"Men should lose themselves in Tao as fish lose themselves in water."

Speaking of talk, my late friend, William Congreve, once told me of a lady whom he knew... "that loves talking so incessantly, she won't give an echo fair play; she has that everlasting rotation of tongue that an echo must wait till she dies before it can catch her last words."

At this point, I will take FDR's advice regarding speeches: "Be sincere...be brief...be seated."

NS, NS (Neither Sincere), (Nor Silent)

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Post by mtmynd » November 18th, 2009, 11:38 am

G'day, NS and welcome... :)
"Men should lose themselves in Tao as fish lose themselves in water."


I couldn't agree more. Everyday brings with it a new purpose, a new challenge, a new mystery to immerse oneself in. The Stream contains every thing that is, all that was and all that shall be. The Tao of Being must include the openness of change Being does, including perception, yes?

Chattering/Silence... the yin and the yang that respond to each other with trust that each offers the other the necessity to be what they are, when the are and why they are.
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Post by Non Sum » November 18th, 2009, 10:32 pm

Thank you, Cecil. Always a pleasure to read, and converse with you.

Cecil: The Tao of Being must include the openness of change Being does, including perception, yes?

NS: My own take differs somewhat. Allow me to explain:
While the yin of change, as well as the yang of stasis rest in Being, Being (aka ‘Tao’) itself does neither, but contains, and transcends, them both. Just as your tree inverts between reflection and reflected, yet neither one has a greater or lesser share in Being.

Hui-neng (5th Zen Patriarch) came upon two monks who asked him to decide which of them had it right. Was it the wind that moved, or the flag? Hui-neng answered that they both had it wrong; it was the mind that moved. For what is movement, or change, if not our memory of how things once stood (or an alternative stands), and then making a comparison between them. Like your tree, Cecil, we require at least two examples for the mind’s comparative performance. Only then can we declare: ‘movement,’ or ‘change,’ has taken place. Hui-neng’s ‘flag,’ or Walt Disney’s ‘dancing Mickey Mouse,’ it all comes down to playing the mind.

” The ancients amid all external changes did not change internally. When one only notes the changes of things, while himself continuing one and the same, he does not change.” (Chuang-tse, ‘Genius of the Absurd’)
NS (Now Seated)

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Post by mtmynd » November 19th, 2009, 12:19 pm

G'day, NS, amigo... likewise, I enjoy your contribution... putting mind to work is worthwhile, akin to physical exercise, which brings a healthier attitude than before the exercise.

N(icely)S(uggestive): "Like your tree, Cecil, we require at least two examples for the mind’s comparative performance. Only then can we declare: ‘movement,’ or ‘change,’ has taken place."

I see this as the 'we' you speak of is mind which requires these (2) examples in order for it (mind) to do what mind is for - solve/answer. It is mind which declares this 'movement' or 'change.' The 'I' which 'operates' mind is Tao, head chief operator in charge. ;)

Mind's performance is based upon what mind is given to perform. Give mind an algebraic equation and mind will perform with all that came before to answer the equation to the best of it's capability. Give mind a basket of dirty clothes and the problem of washing will happen. Mind is only a good as the problems it encounters and the methodology it uses to solve/answer such problems/questions. Mind operates the same as all 'things and stuff', i.e. with moments of change and stasis, work and rest, do and not do. Like the tool it is, it is incumbent upon the operator to use it to the operator's advantage. This tool, Mind, requires it's moments to shutdown so body can renew Mind's energies. When mind does not move, all else beyond mind continues as Tao does.
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Non Sum

Post by Non Sum » November 19th, 2009, 10:13 pm

Howdy Cecil,
Cecil: putting mind to work is worthwhile, akin to physical exercise, which brings a healthier attitude than before the exercise.

NS: I robustly agree. And naturally, my role in our workouts shall be the ‘exercise dummy.’ 8)

Cecil: Mind's performance is based upon what mind is given to perform. Give mind an algebraic equation and mind will perform with all that came before to answer the equation to the best of it's capability. Give mind a basket of dirty clothes and the problem of washing will happen.

NS: Yes, the mind is only an “instrument.” My mind solved the laundry problem by getting married. That darn thing is a freaking genius!

”The body and the mind, the sense-organs and the intellect are instruments only. He knows himself as other than the instrument.” (Bhagavad Gita)

Cecil: When mind does not move, all else beyond mind continues as Tao does.

NS: Again, I agree (So much agreement. This is becoming scary) The Tao is indeed continuous, yet neither moves nor ceases to move. Since the Tao is everywhere, where can it move to, or from?

Cecil: The 'I' which 'operates' mind is Tao, head chief operator in charge.

NS: The mind, like any respectable computer, is a multi-tasker. One of its tasks, or ‘movements,’ is to task (“operate”) itself. While our essential Self, our “I,” is the Tao itself, its central presence is commonly confused with the changes that occur around it. We may say, “I am tired,” when in fact it is the body that is tired. Or, “I just had a great idea,” or “I am angry,” when in fact it is the function of the mind instrument to have ‘ideas’ and ‘emotions.’

” Every action is really performed by the forces of nature. Man, deluded by his egoism, thinks: "I am the doer." (Gita again)

You can directly know the Tao, or pure “I,” as that which never moves, changes, or acts, including acts to operate the body or mind. The Tao is your Being, your Consciousness, your Self-ness; nothing more or less. For your entire change-filled life, ‘this’ experience (for they are one combined, as the self-aware “I Am”) never alters for any sentient being.

”My ‘Me’ is God, nor do I recognize any other ‘me’ except God Himself.” (St. Catherine of Genoa)

I quote from the mystics from all religious traditions, as well as many of the great philosophers and poets, in order to better illustrate the ubiquitous nature of this experience of transcendental mysticism.

Muhammad said: ”Who knows his true Self, knows his Lord.”
NS (Nomadic Syncretist)

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Post by mtmynd » November 22nd, 2009, 12:17 am

Finally had a little time to reply to you, my friend... Another 'show weekend' in progress..

NS: "My mind solved the laundry problem by getting married. That darn thing is a freaking genius!"

Genius... or lucky? :lol: Thanking your mind for getting married is an interesting slant on the topic -

JP: "Do you take this woman to be your lawfully wedded wife..?"

MT: "I'll have to confer with my mind on that one. Can you hold on for a bit while I do that?"

_____

NS: "Again, I agree (So much agreement. This is becoming scary) The Tao is indeed continuous, yet neither moves nor ceases to move. Since the Tao is everywhere, where can it move to, or from?"

MT: Easy, N(ever)S(cared)... fear is not the Tao but only a trick of your mind. ;)

The Tao is truly everywhere... except for the acceptance by mind to be everywhere. That rascally mind has a mind of it's... wait a minute... where is this comment going? If mind has a mind of it's own then which mind speaks for mind itself..? Certainly the Tao knows the answer but if Tao sounds confused is that not the problem with mind... or Tao?

NS: "We may say, “I am tired,” when in fact it is the body that is tired. Or, “I just had a great idea,” or “I am angry,” when in fact it is the function of the mind instrument to have ‘ideas’ and ‘emotions.'"

So we should give credit to mind when our ego says “I just had a great idea”..., i.e. "Mind just had a great idea!" or "Mind just let me know how angry I am!" ?

It sounds as if you're implying that Mind has these 'things' you mention rather than something beyond mind giving mind the clarity to interpret that which we call 'idea' or 'anger.' Ideas, anger, hunger, thirst... so many feelings that body responds to without the function of Mind, other that the ability to interpret these messages into willful acts to do something about the idea or hunger or thirst, et al... mind working as tool to aid in the survival mechanism which is incumbent upon mind, body and spirit to not only survive to thrive.

_____

My ‘Me’ is God, nor do I recognize any other ‘me’ except God Himself.” (St. Catherine of Genoa)

Upon reading this the first time I was moved by the claim. As I reread it and again, once more with each read the impact lessened. I asked myself 'why?" Let's see...

She states "My 'me' is God..." in the beginning. Using the word 'me' and not 'I' was untruthful but only so due to what followed, i.e. "... nor do I recognize any other ‘me’ except God Himself." If she hadn't used the word 'me' in the beginning and came back with the word 'I', thus showing a difference (of sorts) in meaning, whereas it is the 'I' which is the true Tao and not the 'me' which is much more the ego driven essence that masks the 'I' in favor of the 'me' of the moment.

Perhaps this sounds trite. But let's re-phrase this line of Cathy's to read - "My ‘I’ is God, nor does 'me' recognize any other God except 'I.'" This is more to the point and restores 'I' to that which is the Tao and 'me' to that which is ego.

NS: "I quote from the mystics from all religious traditions, as well as many of the great philosophers and poets, in order to better illustrate the ubiquitous nature of this experience of transcendental mysticism."

MT: ... and your do it well. Your love for those you mention is evident in your collection of quotes which I've been privy to read for quite sometime now... and hope to do so in the future.

Muhammad said: ”Who knows his true Self, knows his Lord.”

I agree only in part with this... in part because of either phraseology or interpretive skills upon the interpreter himself. The way this is written suggest that one that knows their true Self has a Lord instead of the Tao.

Lao Tzu says: The way of the Tao is a watercourse way. It moves like water. Water seeks the lowest ground and flows quickly from the highest ground... content to find it's calm in the lowest ground where is can reflect that which lies above it. Can the moon be seen in the turbulence of powerful ripples that rush anxiously towards it's destination of pure peace where that refection becomes true and clear... where non-ambition of placidity allows a deeper focus and thus, understanding.

NS (Nomadic Syncretist)

My first encounter with this word, syncretism (the attempt to reconcile disparate or contrary beliefs, often while melding practices of various schools of thought), and one that parallels our continuing dialog regarding the metaphysics within various religions and philosophies, etc... (I will send you my $2.oo for the word Monday! ;))
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Non Sum

Post by Non Sum » November 22nd, 2009, 11:45 am

Hi Cecil,
MTmynd: Another 'show weekend' in progress..

NS: I knew a trench coat wearing flasher who used to say the exact same thing. :shock:

JP: "Do you take this woman to be your lawfully wedded wife..?"

NS: No, it was more like, “… to be your lawfully wedded ‘laundress’..?”

MT: "I'll have to confer with my mind on that one. Can you hold on for a bit while I do that?"

NS: What’s to “confer” about? My mind is up to making snap decisions when called for. I had a hamper full of dirty laundry at home, not to mention the bedding, and the stinky lot I’d been stuffing beneath the bed for the past year, or so. At that point, there’s neither need, nor time, for conferences.

MT: Easy, N(ever)S(cared)... fear is not the Tao but only a trick of your mind.

NS: You’re right MT (Mildly Thanatotic), I’ve got it under control now; thanks for the soothing words. :)

MT: If mind has a mind of it's own then which mind speaks for mind itself..?

NS: Mind does. I told you that the mind is not inferior to any computer in its hierarchical multi-tasking. A computer runs the program that runs another program full of sub-programs and sub-routines. The mental layers can get as thick and heavy as on any fudge cake.

MT: So we should give credit to mind when our ego says “I just had a great idea”..., i.e. "Mind just had a great idea!" or "Mind just let me know how angry I am!" ?

NS: Placing an “I” on a bodily, or mental, function is what Maharishi Mahesh Yogi (Beatle’s guru, TM guy) called being a “thief.” Since you are fraudulently taking credit for the work of others. Obviously, having an idea (great, or otherwise) is nothing more than mental activity; same as having an emotion.
(Wait a minute, and I’ll get Mahesh Yogi on the phone, and he’ll explain it far better than I… … sorry for the delay, but he’s been dead for a while. Ah, here he is)

” One undermines the higher forces in nature by possessing himself of the field of action, which actually belongs to them. He is like a thief because he has not realized his Self as detached from activity. Anyone who has not gained fixity in Being automatically remains involved with activity; he assumes authorship of action and obtains ownership of its fruit, which in reality belong to nature or to the gods, the powers of nature. That is why such a man is called a 'thief', a usurper of possessions belonging to others.” (famous dead guru guy)

MT: It sounds as if you're implying that Mind has these 'things' you mention rather than something beyond mind giving mind the clarity to interpret that

NS: I hope it sounds that’a way, since that is how mysticism in the main explains it. I know you’ve heard of the term ‘maya’ (Hindus), ‘mara’ (Buddhists), meaning ‘illusion.’ It is the purpose of spiritual enlightenment to awaken from the mental delusions/dreams our minds create within themselves. That is why “Buddha” means “awakened.”

”You dream you are the doer. You dream that action is done. You dream that action bears fruit.” (Bhagavad Gita)

”He who knows that he is under a delusion is not greatly deluded.” (Chuang tse, co-founder of philosophic Taoism)

MT: whereas it is the 'I' which is the true Tao and not the 'me' which is much more the ego driven essence that masks the 'I' in favor of the 'me' of the moment.

NS: I believe that you are succumbing to your own personal usages of “I & me.” Since neither Webster, nor Fowler’s Usage, see any such distinction twixt terms; the dif is merely grammatical.

The purport of Cathy’s message is consonant with mysticism in that there is only one “I/Me,” and so any confusion among the several is impossible. There is only one self-aware ‘Me’/’I,’ and that One is the Tao/Brahman-Atman/Buddha/Christ/Allah/Self/Original face/Unborn/etc. Many names for the one True Self, who alone Is.
”Brahman alone is, nothing else is.” (Upanishads)
“So that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other.”
(Isaah 45:6)

MT: This is more to the point and restores 'I' to that which is the Tao and 'me' to that which is ego.

NS: The “ego” is nothing more than the True Self being mistaken for the mental images that overlay it in the mind’s eye. It is necessary to see the True Self with the Self’s eye alone. ”Only God sees God.”

MT: The way this is written suggest that one that knows their true Self has a Lord instead of the Tao.

NS: “Tao,” “Lord,” same-same when spoken from the position of mysticism. Muhammed is here speaking of his very own “True Self,” which only Mystics would ever dare such an “apparent” sacrilege. That statement got the Sufi saint Hallaj tortured and killed. Take it from a lifelong atheist, Tao is Chan’s, or Taoism’s, way of saying ‘the Absolute.’ Mystics from theistic religions use their own terms for what is Absolute, but they say the same things (which sayings often get them excommunicated, or murdered).

MT: Can the moon be seen in the turbulence of powerful ripples that rush anxiously towards it's destination of pure peace where that refection becomes true and clear... where non-ambition of placidity allows a deeper focus and thus, understanding.

NS: Yes, but much “deeper” than mere mind stilling is necessary for this sort of clear seeing. One must leave the mind completely behind, and look to see who they in fact are when all preconceptions and images have been abandoned to the mind. There is, what the Zennies call, an ‘Original Face’ outside of the mind, but you must first come out to see it. Once directly seen, you die to the ego self, and become what the Taoists call, ‘an immortal.’

MT: I will send you my $2.oo for the word Monday!

NS: Send a little extra along with it, since my bank charges me for deposited checks that bounce.

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Post by mtmynd » November 22nd, 2009, 11:22 pm

Howdy, TN... hope your day was a memorable adventure into the metaphysical.

NS: "I told you that the mind is not inferior to any computer in its hierarchical multi-tasking. A computer runs the program that runs another program full of sub-programs and sub-routines. The mental layers can get as thick and heavy as on any fudge cake."

That fudge cake analogy... now that's baking the cake and eating it, too. That exhausting work of all your computers doing their various tasks is better left mind..? Mynd spins and twirls even thinking about it. Where is that placid water when I need it?

NS: "I believe that you are succumbing to your own personal usages of “I & me.”

Well, certainly, N(ever)S(arcastic). Who else is there who speaks for 'me'?

NS: "Placing an “I” on a bodily, or mental, function is what Maharishi Mahesh Yogi (Beatle’s guru, TM guy) called being a “thief.” Since you are fraudulently taking credit for the work of others. Obviously, having an idea (great, or otherwise) is nothing more than mental activity; same as having an emotion."

That Mahesh... how many times have I discussed this very topic with him... gosh, Mahesh... too many to address. But yet 'he' (the 'I' of him, the other than 'me') continues to add chili to the stew in such amounts as to make that taste the only taste of the stew. If I were to take him seriously I would have to concur that 'we' all are 'thieves in the night' stealing from Self which rightfully belongs to Self and not to our ego. Who does that leave to speak for Self other than the vase which contains Self? Thievery is a cheap shot given the circumstance that even our buddy, Mahesh, may be accused by 'we' (the collective 'I' of many same believers) as speaking for a Self to better his 'me'!

NS: "It is the purpose of spiritual enlightenment to awaken from the mental delusions/dreams our minds create within themselves. That is why “Buddha” means “awakened.”

Purpose? Nay, amigo, never on purpose one becomes enlightened. How can one seek that which they have no idea of what it is? Enlightenment is given... a gift to those who often least expect it but indeed are thankful for the extraordinary experience which indeed does Buddha the enhancer of enlightenment. There is no purpose to it. "Before enlightenment I chopped wood and carried water. After enlightenment I chopped wood and carried water." Purpose is that gentle creature of the oceans... wait, that's porpoise who has what purpose?

NS: "There is only one self-aware ‘Me’/’I,’ and that One is the Tao/Brahman-Atman/Buddha/Christ/Allah/Self/Original face/Unborn/etc. Many names for the one True Self, who alone Is. "

<center>We can never fully realize
the Whole
without realizing
the One.

The path is not thru
the mind’s logic,
but beyond the limitations
of the mind.

Abstractions
are witness
to what lies
beyond the mind.

We owe it to
ourself
to unwrap
the conditioning
that has prevented
us from realizing
our
True Self.

_________ </center>

NS: "Send a little extra along with it, since my bank charges me for deposited checks that bounce."

Where is trust in this statement..? Perhaps by sending cash your faith in my words will be restored... ;)
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