Sunday Stream (54) ~ Religion vs Spirituality

Poetic insight & philosophy by Cecil Lee.

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Sunday Stream (54) ~ Religion vs Spirituality

Post by mtmynd » November 6th, 2005, 11:51 am

<center>Religion vs Spirituality</center>

Religion is a communal event... a participatory gathering in discourse, and more than often, a willfull indoctrination of the understanding and acceptance of the words both spoken and written pertaining to the spiritual experiences of one who has had a spiritual awakening, which may also be called 'self realization' or its equivalent.

Spirituality is a personal (versus communal) experience that transcends the mundane and reconnects the individual with the inner self... a practice that does not (necessarily) require (a) religion.

There has been many words said about religion - whether it is a dying institution, unnessary, no longer pertinent to we humans. I don't see that happening any time soon, even though I certainly see that many of the present day religions that have been, (and are), well-entrenched in the world's societies no longer serve many of their flock.

Conversely, during this period of upheaval within religious institutions one can see that while some religions are losing practioners few others are gaining in numbers. Islam apparently is gaining in numbers as is what has become called "Evangelical Christianity." And there is a constant flux that goes on with what I'll term 'World Buddhism', to singularly attempt to define the well established Buddhism of the Far East, i.e., Tibetan Buddhism Japanese Buddhism, etc., depending upon the geographical locations... collectively the 'sects.' This trying on of different religions can be seen as a search for something more fulfilling for our growing restlessness in knowing our Self.

The list of our world's religions is a lengthy one. No need to attempt to list them here, for that is not the purpose. But when our population of some 6.4 billion people are acknowledged, so must our acceptance that there are 6.4 billion individuals attempting to find community and historically religions have offered a sense of community more than politics has. Politics offers us basic human needs like economy, security, defense, etc..

The beliefs within religion run the gamut of our imaginations... all for attaining God (or an equivalent experience). This is part of our being, the core of what it is to be human. It is an historical fact throughout our human evolution there has always been some link to our 'supernaturalness.' In our primitive beginnings there were (and still are) the shamans, the wise-ones, the curanderas, the witches, the priests... those that the tribes looked to in times of personal and communal distress. These were/are the ones that had personal spiritual experiences, the people that the community felt they could turn to for assistance to tap into that spirit world that they themselves knew existed but were unable to fully access.

For reasons that can only be assumed, certain few of those in tune with the spiritual were not only acknowledged by the initial tribe or community, but were known to have persuasion over larger and larger groups beyond the tribe. People like Siddhartha became 'the Buddha" for millions, Jesus became "the Christ" for millions, Mohammed was revered by millions... and their adherents continue to this day. These few examples obviously were able to relate their own 'self realizations' in a way that touched the hearts, minds and souls of so many.

Nature does not stand still. Change is the reality. Nowadays we are seeing growing numbers of people that want more than what is known from what the followers of these great, early 'leaders' of religions teach. Mankind's evolution has been part of the change. We cannot help it. We have learned many things throughout our growth. We have to practice those things that we have learned. We are learning creatures... if nothing else we have always learned throughout our own history here on this one planet.

This learning should not reduce our desire to find our own Self. The paths for achieving that oneness has opened up from all our learnings. We need stepping stones to pass over the rushing waters of doubt and confusion. Every stepping stone can be viewed as a religion, no matter how large or how small, as long as it will support us to reach the other side, it is beneficial on the journey. Reaching this 'other side' is our completion in knowing our Self - fully realizing our individuality, our authenticity, just as those that taught us.

<center>Do not give the stepping stone more value than the journey it allows. </center>

Many feel that the stepping stone they are on is the whole answer, the final destination. They build their lives upon that one stone and call it home. But that one stone is surrounded by dangers. No man is an island nor should he attempt to live like one. We must connect. We must complete our journey. The stone is but a temporal reprieve from the journey, not our home but a resting spot. The swirling waters will eventually flood that stone and all that is upon it... washing away all that they thought would be their answer. We move by learning, by accepting new stones reaching towards our journey. We should never call one stone home. It is the distant shore that is our home and that should remain our objective. That shore completes our journey, fulfills our being... our freedom, our peace is our final attainment, where the stepping stones of religion are no longer needed.

[Inspired by a question from artguy. Thank you, Kurt!]


Cecil
06 Noviembre 2005

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judih
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Post by judih » November 6th, 2005, 12:02 pm

i love this:

"No man is an island nor should he attempt to live like one. We must connect. We must complete our journey."


love it.

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Post by MrGuilty » November 6th, 2005, 12:03 pm

Do not give the stepping stone more value than the journey it allows.
Amen
We are all of us stepping stones, all of us in the stream.

Thanks, your streams always a step on the journey for me.
I used to be smart

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Post by K&D » November 6th, 2005, 2:45 pm

about politics not giving community.

in class we've been talking about proscriptive and prescriptive laws, and i think that because our society has proscriptive laws, there is no community, where as in ancient greece where laws were prescriptive, that created a sence of community of the state and within your government.

just a thought, so here's a question, what about the communities that form without religion? what do those look like, they all have a common goal? is that nessisary, i'm intrested in looking at what a modern day rousseauian community would look like. i think it would be centered around a love/respect for the group memebers and decisions would be made based on this instead of individual wants....its funny because the more i think about it proscriptive laws seem to incourage the self over the community, and thats not nessisarily a good thing in my mind.
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Post by WIREMAN » November 6th, 2005, 3:16 pm

what it's "all" about..........then the otherside............

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Post by gypsyjoker » November 6th, 2005, 7:43 pm

Only thing I can think of is B F Skinner and Summerland?
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Post by mnaz » November 7th, 2005, 4:01 am

Love this one. The last paragraph is great. It reminds me of a Joseph Campbell discussion about reaching "yonder shore"...."Little Ferryboat" vs. "Great Ferryboat" buddhism. The former is the vehicle of experience, doctrine, etc, on a voyage toward yonder shore.... "monk buddhism". The latter is the realization that "all things are Buddha things, we are on the Great Ferryboat, and the ferryboat is already there (Mahayana tradition). The place you left is exactly where you are. It's only your perspective that's changed. You had thought there was an opposite. You were thinking in terms of pairs of opposites.

.... kind of a 'destination-is-the-journey' sort of thing....

Thanks for the journey, Cecil.

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Post by Arcadia » November 7th, 2005, 1:42 pm

the island thing reminded me Thomas Merton and Gudiño Kieffer´s tale (I can´t remember the title) about a man running from the ´70 society that found the perfect isolated island but he didn´t know that the island was a target for nuclear bombs tests.
Thanks for the stream, Cecil!
saludos,

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Post by mtmynd » November 7th, 2005, 8:23 pm

Thanks Judih, McG, K&D (reply below), wired, 'joker', mnaz and Arcadia... good hearing from youse guys!

K&D - re: "what about the communities that form without religion?" I'll try to make it brief (!!)... religion... philosophy... whatever the reason for the formation, it has to be acceptable for those within the community in order for it to succeed. (How's that?)

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Post by K&D » November 8th, 2005, 1:21 pm

i like the color codeness....

what about a community formed not around the agreement of adeas, but around a similar lot in life?

or i don't know i think if you look at even like the Beat generation, they didn't agree on many things other then a few, mainly that the current ideas sucked. i guess in a way that is an agreement of ideas.
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Post by whimsicaldeb » November 8th, 2005, 2:28 pm

... peace is our final attainment, where the stepping stones of religion are no longer needed.

That's true.

It also explains why religion isn't able to bring us peace, but it can bring us to peace. Religion isn't the moon, it is the finger pointing at the moon. At a certain point, we recognize the distinction... and stop asking, looking for religion to do, what by design, it can't; but which personal spirituality can.

We become peaceful, now.

Religion can't be peaceful (full of peace) ... until we are, but the irony of that is ... when we are full of peace, we no longer need religion's support. At that point, we are relying on our spiritual connection. A real Catch-22.

This is also why religion is fading/passing … more & more people are finding and their spiritual connection; living ‘the peace of God’ (Source, Spirit, Wholeness, Oneness, Mystery) for themselves, right now... with more joining each day. Coming to this same place within from many different directions/paths. A place where this Peace, that once found, brings the natural result of letting go and moving beyond whatever path they used to arrive.

Now (I would say) … the work required is stopping the violence. Stopping those that are wrapped up in this vicious cycle of stoning others with the stones from their religious paths ... in all it's forms.
A challenge for sure, full of lots of sublet things, but one well worth taking.

I know you wrote in the past, that you saw yourself “championing religion’s cause” … but I think you are championing a lost cause, a cause that is coming to it’s natural end, and is now passing away.

Moments of pain, sorrow, and anger too, are all parts of grief as we deal with our emotions over this passing. For many, such as yourself (?) ... are losing something they dearly loved.

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Post by mtmynd » November 8th, 2005, 5:05 pm

Hi, K&D - I think you answered your own question... :-)


Howdy, Deb... Here I was agreeing with all you had written, then - Bip!, "you saw yourself 'championing religion’s cause.'” I stopped. I gave thought to that. ((Was it me she was speaking to..?))

If, indeed, Deb, you were addressing me with that quote, I must disagree. Although you obviously have no need for any religion in the world, I don't agree that would be the case for everybody on this planet. When put into a perspective, we (the human race) is 6.4 billion strong and there are sooo many that rely upon one religion or another for whatever reason they may or must. The stats of 'believers' pretty well shows that, and those believers are believers in their religion and not necessarily in their spirituality.

Even though I feel it would be great if all 6.4 billion of us no longer had a need for religion, what I feel and what those numbers want or need is not the same. I can well humble myself to understanding and accepting the why's that people turn to religion. I also know that many of those that have attained enlightenment have done so thru some aspect of their own religious backgrounds/upbringing... that's just the way it is.

I will never choose to denounce anothers religion simply because I have no need for it, but find myself to be more at peace with my Self by understanding why another turns to religion to give them a level of peace that they are in need of... peace is good at that! ;-)

Religion is neither good nor bad but all in how one benefits. To champion religion would be the same as denoucing religion, the two sides are inseparable; like stepping stones, we place our feet upon those that offer the best stability upon our journey, and that is what I may 'champion' - the journey and not the stone.

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

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Post by whimsicaldeb » November 9th, 2005, 12:02 am

The following quote by you, is what you wrote in your Sunday Stream (32) - The Third Place on Sun May 29, 2005
http://studioeight.tv/phpbb/viewtopic.p ... c&start=15

In that reply, on page 2 of that thread dated Posted: Mon May 30, 2005 12:28 pm you wrote in reply to me at that time:

... When I wrote, "religion must speak to all of mankind to be believable, to be accepted, to be embraced as some article of Truth." I was attempting to speak for the 'cause' of religion... the purpose which I see is to begin the path for those that seek the greater mysteries of life, a path that most have little interest in pursuing.. and so religion remains in its infancy.

This was the comment I was remembering and referring back to when I made my reference of your seeing yourself as religion's champion. Because back in May, that's how I had taken your comment of "I was attempting to speak for the 'cause' of religion..." as you championing religion's cause; like protecting a child.

If I am mistake in your intent, I apologize.

Looking at religions as stepping stones to a greater whole, works well for me; and I'm glad you found the rest of what I wrote enjoyable.

~peace~

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Post by mtmynd » November 9th, 2005, 1:40 am

Thx, Deb. Glad that was understood.

Peace 2U,

Cecil

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