Supposition: there exists an all-powerful entity x (God), who causes and controls all natural events, and is aware of all the natural events he caused or will cause . ("He" is omniscient as well as omnipotent by definition, otherwise not "God")
1. For any x, if x is an all-powerful God (G), x kills (K) thousands of innocents (by way of natural disasters, plagues, famines)
2. If (x) kills (K) thousands of innocents, then (x)is a mass-murderer and identical to Evil (E) (at least according to any commonly accepted human legal or moral codes).
3, Thus, if x is God, then x is identical to Evil
(x)(G(x)->K(x))
(x)(K(x)->E(x))
thus (x)(G(x) -> E(x))
If you love "God," you love Tsunamis
Moderator: e_dog
i think the logic is sound, but there's always the various 'mysterious ways' defenses.
to resist your second premise (that it doesn't apply when x=God), it can be said:
1.that the standards of human morality don't apply.
PROBLEM: then we cannot say that God the Father is good, just, etc.
instead, most theists will choose:
2. God choses the lesser of two evils; or he created the best of all possible worlds such that the tsunami and so on were better than the alternative.
PROBLEM: this means God ain't as powerful as we would've hoped, and it doesn't seem plausible anyway, as pointed out by Voltaire.
or, the real crazies 'll go for:
3. It call works out in the end -- Judgment Day sets it right; those who have suffered unjustly will be rewarded; the temptations of evil is a test of the will; suffering can purify the spirit.
PROBLEM: this makes God look like a harsh, judgmental punk.
to resist your second premise (that it doesn't apply when x=God), it can be said:
1.that the standards of human morality don't apply.
PROBLEM: then we cannot say that God the Father is good, just, etc.
instead, most theists will choose:
2. God choses the lesser of two evils; or he created the best of all possible worlds such that the tsunami and so on were better than the alternative.
PROBLEM: this means God ain't as powerful as we would've hoped, and it doesn't seem plausible anyway, as pointed out by Voltaire.
or, the real crazies 'll go for:
3. It call works out in the end -- Judgment Day sets it right; those who have suffered unjustly will be rewarded; the temptations of evil is a test of the will; suffering can purify the spirit.
PROBLEM: this makes God look like a harsh, judgmental punk.
I don't think 'Therefore, I am.' Therefore, I am.
Ren&Stimpy,
You make the assumption that God causes tsunamis and all natural and unnatural disasters. While I agree that he is aware of everything that goes on and allows it I believe it is our own actions that often cause these things. You know, like draining all the oil from the earth, setting off our little atomic bomb tests, little tiddy biddy things like that. And natural disasters happen. Is it realistic to think and expect God to fix everything and protect us from everything? Hardly! Christ there'd be so many people teeming over the planet we wouldn't be able to move. God knows that dying isn't the worst thing that can happen to anybody. There's more to all this....much more.
I look at it this way,
In the beginning God created....
and then for the most part just leaves us to our own devices. Which basically appears to be, at this point, the destruction of each other and the planet.
Free will. God gave us free will and free reign. He can and will step in but forces nothing on us. We're given choices in this life. The choices we make effect what happens.
God sees the big picture. We puny humans can not, so we stumble and bumble along fucking things up as we go. To blame God and call him evil because he allows us to go our merry ways is hardly fair to the ol' boy.
I take it you do not believe in the Devil The presence of an evil force other than God
I find it strange that we like to blame God for everything but never blame the Devil
Who was it that said, and I paraphrase, The smartest thing that satan did was trick the world into believing he doesn't exist. We are most certainly buying into that.
Nothing I write here is written in stone. I, like you, am just trying to figure it all out and keep an open mind while doing it.
You make the assumption that God causes tsunamis and all natural and unnatural disasters. While I agree that he is aware of everything that goes on and allows it I believe it is our own actions that often cause these things. You know, like draining all the oil from the earth, setting off our little atomic bomb tests, little tiddy biddy things like that. And natural disasters happen. Is it realistic to think and expect God to fix everything and protect us from everything? Hardly! Christ there'd be so many people teeming over the planet we wouldn't be able to move. God knows that dying isn't the worst thing that can happen to anybody. There's more to all this....much more.
I look at it this way,
In the beginning God created....
and then for the most part just leaves us to our own devices. Which basically appears to be, at this point, the destruction of each other and the planet.
Free will. God gave us free will and free reign. He can and will step in but forces nothing on us. We're given choices in this life. The choices we make effect what happens.
God sees the big picture. We puny humans can not, so we stumble and bumble along fucking things up as we go. To blame God and call him evil because he allows us to go our merry ways is hardly fair to the ol' boy.
I take it you do not believe in the Devil The presence of an evil force other than God
I find it strange that we like to blame God for everything but never blame the Devil
Who was it that said, and I paraphrase, The smartest thing that satan did was trick the world into believing he doesn't exist. We are most certainly buying into that.
Nothing I write here is written in stone. I, like you, am just trying to figure it all out and keep an open mind while doing it.
I used to walk with my head in the clouds but I kept getting struck by lightning!
Now my head twitches and I drool alot. Anonymouse
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/mousey1/shhhhhh.gif[/img]
Now my head twitches and I drool alot. Anonymouse
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/mousey1/shhhhhh.gif[/img]
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ren&stimpy
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e-dog--yes it's the Problem of Evil Redux.
You can (and people do) deny or modify the second premise. In fact I've hear neo-con theists claim that "God"'s existence is independent of his Goodness-justice or lack thereof. That tactic would seemingly imply that anything that happens is itself "good," or that any value terms at all are irrelevant. Pain then is no different than pleasure except in the individual's attempts to avoid pain (of course some twisted people might think a tsunami or pain and war are good) . And if all of Gods acts are beyond our ability to judge, and have nothing to do with our ideals of justice, then justice and "goodness" and reason itself are a farce. No? And there is that old Platonic issue here as well--Is a supposed Deity to be obeyed or acknowledged because He is just (thus in some sense held to a human standard) or because he is all-powerful (and thus above morality)? The theists seem to say that He is to be obeyed regardless if he is just or not--the King God. Yet what is the difference between an amoral, indifferent King- God--creator of tsunamis, AIDS, the black plague, white sharks, volcanoes, etc.--from satan.
If this is the best of possible worlds then God is perhaps not omnipotent--which some theists have claimed; or perhaps there is more of manichean account possible if you were to hold to some idealist view ( I don't). Either way Scriptural insistence--or at least the theologian's insistence-- that God is loving and just seems impossible, especially if God is capable of helping the innocents dying and suffering but chooses not to. (And this would be true even if the protestant nutcase vision were to hold that somehow the dead innocents all are redeemed or healed in Himmel am Hoch at a later date) .
Mousey: Who, if you assume God exists, created the Devil? And the earth and its physical laws
You can (and people do) deny or modify the second premise. In fact I've hear neo-con theists claim that "God"'s existence is independent of his Goodness-justice or lack thereof. That tactic would seemingly imply that anything that happens is itself "good," or that any value terms at all are irrelevant. Pain then is no different than pleasure except in the individual's attempts to avoid pain (of course some twisted people might think a tsunami or pain and war are good) . And if all of Gods acts are beyond our ability to judge, and have nothing to do with our ideals of justice, then justice and "goodness" and reason itself are a farce. No? And there is that old Platonic issue here as well--Is a supposed Deity to be obeyed or acknowledged because He is just (thus in some sense held to a human standard) or because he is all-powerful (and thus above morality)? The theists seem to say that He is to be obeyed regardless if he is just or not--the King God. Yet what is the difference between an amoral, indifferent King- God--creator of tsunamis, AIDS, the black plague, white sharks, volcanoes, etc.--from satan.
If this is the best of possible worlds then God is perhaps not omnipotent--which some theists have claimed; or perhaps there is more of manichean account possible if you were to hold to some idealist view ( I don't). Either way Scriptural insistence--or at least the theologian's insistence-- that God is loving and just seems impossible, especially if God is capable of helping the innocents dying and suffering but chooses not to. (And this would be true even if the protestant nutcase vision were to hold that somehow the dead innocents all are redeemed or healed in Himmel am Hoch at a later date) .
Mousey: Who, if you assume God exists, created the Devil? And the earth and its physical laws
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ren&stimpy
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I know you don't care for sci-fi e-dog, but what if a very powerful alien force were located and proven to exist--some sort of massive intelligence responsible for creating the world and humans etc. Yet he wasn't al' powerful --but he was mega mega powerful anyways--he created this solar system and so forth--a sort of senior management dude. And somehow scientists determine that this alien intentionally planned all of the tragedies that humans have been beset with. He put the people in place on 12/26/04 and then caused the wave to happen from his cosmic board room. WHat would be the proper response?
God was the first latch key kid.
Imagine being the supreme god and have absolutely no one to learn morals from. How would you invent good and evil? God is an orphan - parentless. Sometimes I imagine being made from scratch or just "poofing" into existence but without any body or senses, just a mind, an all incompassing thought but surrounded by nothingness...how would I evolve? Perhaps like the body is the sum of all its parts, God is the sum of all creation. Neither good nor bad, just existence.
Imagine being the supreme god and have absolutely no one to learn morals from. How would you invent good and evil? God is an orphan - parentless. Sometimes I imagine being made from scratch or just "poofing" into existence but without any body or senses, just a mind, an all incompassing thought but surrounded by nothingness...how would I evolve? Perhaps like the body is the sum of all its parts, God is the sum of all creation. Neither good nor bad, just existence.
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Traveller13
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In short, it's not God that's evil, it's our notion of evil that's irrelevant. Is that what you're saying, ren&stimpy?
Still conjecturing that god exists, I don't think we could call it good or evil, or any other adjective. God created evil, but good too. Thus, God isn't either good or evil, God just is. Using duality-based notions to qualify it doesn't make sense, because for every notion God is it's counterpart. God is beyond whatever duality you can think of. God isn't even one, because God is several too.
It's funny. I don't believe in God, and yet it's really fun to explore the notion of God like that.
Still conjecturing that god exists, I don't think we could call it good or evil, or any other adjective. God created evil, but good too. Thus, God isn't either good or evil, God just is. Using duality-based notions to qualify it doesn't make sense, because for every notion God is it's counterpart. God is beyond whatever duality you can think of. God isn't even one, because God is several too.
It's funny. I don't believe in God, and yet it's really fun to explore the notion of God like that.
[i]~"Open your eyes, and open your eyes again"[/i]
I believe God created life on this planet earth and its so called "physical laws". As for the joker who created the Devil....I am relatively clueless. The devil is supposedly an angel-gone-wrong.....Lucifer, angel run amok, cast out of heaven and now going about to do his worst.Mousey: Who, if you assume God exists, created the Devil? And the earth and its physical laws
None of this is really as farfetched as it might seem. If you take this quote from the Bible literally:
"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."
it sounds to me like God was not a loner!
Superior space beings who have the ability to create life...not that farout when you consider our recent forays into cloning and such.
There is so much that we don't know and can't fathom....so many unexplained mysteries...I have a wait and see attitude!
Perhaps we are pawns in some huge cosmic game.
All I know for sure is that God is a good joe and that there is definitely another plane of existance beyond this mortal coil that has us bound for the time being. There's more to me than just flesh and bone waiting to decompose.
And we mustn't forget Jesus! All important is he in all this....being "the son of God" and all!!!!
One really needs to keep an open mind to all possibilities.
I used to walk with my head in the clouds but I kept getting struck by lightning!
Now my head twitches and I drool alot. Anonymouse
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/mousey1/shhhhhh.gif[/img]
Now my head twitches and I drool alot. Anonymouse
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/mousey1/shhhhhh.gif[/img]
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Doreen Peri
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ren&stimpy
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e-dog--
I removed it--it seemed redundant. As you know Voltaire thought the Lisbon quake (and resulting tidal wave which killed 9000-10000 people in his era) was sufficient grounds for the absence of a Creator--certainly the absence of a just or loving one--, and strong evidence that this was not as Leibnitz had sad, the best of all possible worlds.
Isn't the situation--justifying a Deity by rational means alone-- far more implausible for theists?? And though i have been rather civil, World Wars and genocide would have to be included in His creations--a God, omniscient as well as omnipotent, would know what his creations would do with "free will" or intentionality; thus that does not exculpate Him any more than a mad scientist would be innocent if he built a robot with lasers and programmed it to kill humans and then let it loose at the mall and it performed as he programmed it to. This is all rather obvious but still the theologians are yammering on about Intelligent Design and so forth.
A "Designer" would be guilty of the greatest crimes against humanity ever; if a person wants to believe in the Designer--that old Watchmaker or Darwin's Eye hypothesis-- said Designer is as I think I established (as have countless skeptics and athetists) no different than satan--not a "Good Joe" at all.
("He" does not exist, but the monotheistic "God" that is being worshipped may in fact be some sort of destructive, thanatos-like psychological force or instinct--and that is a more productive or at least less predictable discussion: if we take a skeptical or materialist view (whch I think logic requires us to) then what exactly are all the Christians, Jews, and Muslim doing each Mass or Sabbath or Mosque day? )
I removed it--it seemed redundant. As you know Voltaire thought the Lisbon quake (and resulting tidal wave which killed 9000-10000 people in his era) was sufficient grounds for the absence of a Creator--certainly the absence of a just or loving one--, and strong evidence that this was not as Leibnitz had sad, the best of all possible worlds.
Isn't the situation--justifying a Deity by rational means alone-- far more implausible for theists?? And though i have been rather civil, World Wars and genocide would have to be included in His creations--a God, omniscient as well as omnipotent, would know what his creations would do with "free will" or intentionality; thus that does not exculpate Him any more than a mad scientist would be innocent if he built a robot with lasers and programmed it to kill humans and then let it loose at the mall and it performed as he programmed it to. This is all rather obvious but still the theologians are yammering on about Intelligent Design and so forth.
A "Designer" would be guilty of the greatest crimes against humanity ever; if a person wants to believe in the Designer--that old Watchmaker or Darwin's Eye hypothesis-- said Designer is as I think I established (as have countless skeptics and athetists) no different than satan--not a "Good Joe" at all.
("He" does not exist, but the monotheistic "God" that is being worshipped may in fact be some sort of destructive, thanatos-like psychological force or instinct--and that is a more productive or at least less predictable discussion: if we take a skeptical or materialist view (whch I think logic requires us to) then what exactly are all the Christians, Jews, and Muslim doing each Mass or Sabbath or Mosque day? )
rennStimpy persists in claimingf hat if God created the world ands it natural laws, replete with consequences of disaster and wars, etc. etc. then God is thereby evil. but there is another possibility, though which still denies his perfection -- that God is not evil, but only because he is insane. Not guilty by reason of insanity.
one of your examples for the creator of a man with fre will is that of a mad scientist who builds killer robots. if ruly mad, he may be beyond moral judgment.
Think of the God - Devil relationship as more like Doctor Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde, the evil and good sides of a being with a multiple personality disorder and homocidal mania to boot.
This also goes in the materialistic - psychology direction.
one of your examples for the creator of a man with fre will is that of a mad scientist who builds killer robots. if ruly mad, he may be beyond moral judgment.
Think of the God - Devil relationship as more like Doctor Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde, the evil and good sides of a being with a multiple personality disorder and homocidal mania to boot.
This also goes in the materialistic - psychology direction.
I don't think 'Therefore, I am.' Therefore, I am.
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ren&stimpy
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If any God or gods existed it would seems they would have to be highly intelligent: there are some pretty convincing arguments put forth by Behe for the Intelligent Designer--certain biochemical processes are so complex that it is unlikely they arose purely randomly as Darwinian evolution claims. Behe suggests some intermediary (tho he doesn;t say what denomination) actually shapes and guides certain (not all) microbiological processes.
I guess a Jekkyl and Hyde-like account might work as metaphor, but the other issue of materiality is I think also a big stumbling block for any theist views OR do you think there any grounds for believing in immaterial or supernatural "causality" as the filosophers term it.
I guess a Jekkyl and Hyde-like account might work as metaphor, but the other issue of materiality is I think also a big stumbling block for any theist views OR do you think there any grounds for believing in immaterial or supernatural "causality" as the filosophers term it.
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