Your comment about “that is not a sufficient asnswer” ( paraphrase from memory)
that is a very interesting comment for me. I wanted to pursue it but not on that board, not on swashtikas, but symbols in the abstract. I could learn a lot from you it you have the patience. My mind is not what it used to be, I have so many foilbiles of an old man. I got to use it or lose it. Just speaking philosophically, like one of those sophomore dorm room intellectually bullshity conversations. So please discuss sufficient answers. I have spell checked this thing but I am still not responsible for punctuation. If my illiteracy annoys you please take two aspirins and continue my poor long suffering kind herr professors
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gypsyjoker
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Free Rice
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'Blessed is he who was not born, Or he, who having been born, has died. But as for us who live, woe unto us, Because we see the afflictions of Zion, And what has befallen Jerusalem." Pseudepigrapha
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'Blessed is he who was not born, Or he, who having been born, has died. But as for us who live, woe unto us, Because we see the afflictions of Zion, And what has befallen Jerusalem." Pseudepigrapha
i can't quite make out the tone of your responses, whether you are mocking me or feigning insecurity or fear of senility or whatever. irony, or at least lack of literality, keeps interlocutors on their toes. in any event, i take philosophy very serious, even -- or especially -- when i'm joking.
but the issue of the symbolic meaning of the swastika [sorry, i cannot avoid that particular instance; it is impossible to talk of 'symbolism in the abstract' you gotta have some concrete examples in mind, whether it be the Cross or the quaternary, square-circles, favorites of Jung or the Nike swoosh] is no joke.
nor is it a nonpolitical issue. but, to head off the feeble charge of 'political correctness', that just means it will be contentious.
it is good you switched from that other forum to this, i was afraid Doreen might freak out at the prospect of a flame war! though nothing of that sort is my intention; my replies were polite and not accusatory at a personal level. while it is admittedly a topic of its own, it is still hard to see how the subject could really be not related to the topic of the other thread when the topic of that thread was: propose any topic! which is what i did.
so let me continue. in saying that the swastika is a Nazi symbol, and that therefore it is an undesirable photo for an avatar, i was not insinuating that anyone was in fact a Nazi or consciously endorsing Nazism. but the symbol's meaning is that of Nazism even though it would have meant nothing of the sort a thousand years ago. likewise, for us in the 21st century, the cross is a Christian symbol, whereas at the time of Jesus' life it was either a symbol of Roman oppression or else not a symbol at all, i imagine.
symbols change meaning over time, and depending on circumstances.
that's a very simple claim, tho maybe deceptively so.
but the issue of the symbolic meaning of the swastika [sorry, i cannot avoid that particular instance; it is impossible to talk of 'symbolism in the abstract' you gotta have some concrete examples in mind, whether it be the Cross or the quaternary, square-circles, favorites of Jung or the Nike swoosh] is no joke.
nor is it a nonpolitical issue. but, to head off the feeble charge of 'political correctness', that just means it will be contentious.
it is good you switched from that other forum to this, i was afraid Doreen might freak out at the prospect of a flame war! though nothing of that sort is my intention; my replies were polite and not accusatory at a personal level. while it is admittedly a topic of its own, it is still hard to see how the subject could really be not related to the topic of the other thread when the topic of that thread was: propose any topic! which is what i did.
so let me continue. in saying that the swastika is a Nazi symbol, and that therefore it is an undesirable photo for an avatar, i was not insinuating that anyone was in fact a Nazi or consciously endorsing Nazism. but the symbol's meaning is that of Nazism even though it would have meant nothing of the sort a thousand years ago. likewise, for us in the 21st century, the cross is a Christian symbol, whereas at the time of Jesus' life it was either a symbol of Roman oppression or else not a symbol at all, i imagine.
symbols change meaning over time, and depending on circumstances.
that's a very simple claim, tho maybe deceptively so.
I don't think 'Therefore, I am.' Therefore, I am.
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gypsyjoker
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My only association with a philospher king was Levi Asher, he convinced me that philosphers should be the clowns.i take philosophy very serious, even -- or especially -- when i'm joking.
"G-d is not mocked except by believers"
No mockery? No. We need not talk about concrete, I just want to talk about "sufficient answers" can we do that, or should we just move on.
Free Rice
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'Blessed is he who was not born, Or he, who having been born, has died. But as for us who live, woe unto us, Because we see the afflictions of Zion, And what has befallen Jerusalem." Pseudepigrapha
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'Blessed is he who was not born, Or he, who having been born, has died. But as for us who live, woe unto us, Because we see the afflictions of Zion, And what has befallen Jerusalem." Pseudepigrapha
i suppose the question is, sufficient for what, to whom?
in the context, i was saying the answer 'the swastika was used for centuries by diverse cultures from India to indigenous americans' etc. was insufficient to counter the point that the symbol is a symbol of the nazis.
of course, what is sufficient and insufficient reasons in a debate, is debatable. everything is. but that doesn't mean one of the debaters isn't right.
in the context, i was saying the answer 'the swastika was used for centuries by diverse cultures from India to indigenous americans' etc. was insufficient to counter the point that the symbol is a symbol of the nazis.
of course, what is sufficient and insufficient reasons in a debate, is debatable. everything is. but that doesn't mean one of the debaters isn't right.
I don't think 'Therefore, I am.' Therefore, I am.
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gypsyjoker
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thank you for taking me at my wordi suppose the question is, sufficient for what, to whom?
Debate, I was not mocking you when I said kind professor, term of respect. sincerely. I got to wrap this up cause baby sister waiting to use this machine.
gimme a couple hours. I have not even started to say what is on my mind. My logic is bad, I mean spotty education, so do not read sarcasm where not intended, if I get grouchy and sarcastic I would use emoticons. A chick thing I know, but what can we do with text based communites (turkle MIT)
later
ok so I was taking sufficient answer as some technical term, something from the formal study of logic, which I am ignorant of. Now I remember something about argueing from specific to general, or general to specific, induction deduction?
so you want to start with some concrete example of an abstraction. Not a problem, what is a problem for me is your "value" judgements. I have read a lot more Walter Kaufmann than I have Nietzsche, but Nietzsche hit me up side the head with a two by four, the only two books I have read by him I was not in my right mind. His words kind of acid etched on the old gray matter. The swashtika has been corrupted and can no longer be used? Do you think that is a value judgement> I mean can we argue it logically.
I just sent out for beer and pizza.
Free Rice
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'Blessed is he who was not born, Or he, who having been born, has died. But as for us who live, woe unto us, Because we see the afflictions of Zion, And what has befallen Jerusalem." Pseudepigrapha
Avatar Courtesy of the Baron de Hirsch Fund
'Blessed is he who was not born, Or he, who having been born, has died. But as for us who live, woe unto us, Because we see the afflictions of Zion, And what has befallen Jerusalem." Pseudepigrapha
formal logic's about as useful for thinking as algebra is too a chef. in theory it is a powerful tool, but not truly needed to make a dish.
of course, Plato's definition of unscrupulous rhetoric is that of tasty cookery that is bad for the soul, but post-Nietzsche we can say that Plato OR Socrates was just a more masterful chef than Gorgias.
Hegelians speak of 'concrete universals' whatever that is taken to mean.
Pierce, of 'abduction' as the mode of thought of science, beyond the dichotomy of deduction/induction. not kidnapping, or any other crime, but inference to the the best explanation, creating a coherent picture or model.
of course, Charles Sanders Pierce was a formal logician. but
i digress. anyway, what's wrong with debating values? if you like, we can call it haggling over the value of something., a common practice. the notion that value judgments are not debatable is itself a pernicious, if disguised, value judgment. and that is, i think, consistent with a Nietzschean attitude. Nietzsche certainly reserved to himself, and exercised, the right to judge others, quite [too] fiercely often, with derision.
when someone says that values cannot be debated, they mean that they don't wanna have to defend a position.
or that it's not worth the trouble to. a rationalization for intellectual laziness, dressed up as a sleek sophisticated modern attitude or toleration.
but my point is not to judge. only to question. pointed questions. that makes the listener question him/herself.
of course, Plato's definition of unscrupulous rhetoric is that of tasty cookery that is bad for the soul, but post-Nietzsche we can say that Plato OR Socrates was just a more masterful chef than Gorgias.
Hegelians speak of 'concrete universals' whatever that is taken to mean.
Pierce, of 'abduction' as the mode of thought of science, beyond the dichotomy of deduction/induction. not kidnapping, or any other crime, but inference to the the best explanation, creating a coherent picture or model.
of course, Charles Sanders Pierce was a formal logician. but
i digress. anyway, what's wrong with debating values? if you like, we can call it haggling over the value of something., a common practice. the notion that value judgments are not debatable is itself a pernicious, if disguised, value judgment. and that is, i think, consistent with a Nietzschean attitude. Nietzsche certainly reserved to himself, and exercised, the right to judge others, quite [too] fiercely often, with derision.
when someone says that values cannot be debated, they mean that they don't wanna have to defend a position.
or that it's not worth the trouble to. a rationalization for intellectual laziness, dressed up as a sleek sophisticated modern attitude or toleration.
but my point is not to judge. only to question. pointed questions. that makes the listener question him/herself.
I don't think 'Therefore, I am.' Therefore, I am.
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gypsyjoker
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edited three times
edited
not read any greek philosophy, only histories.
edited four times
Symbolic logic, now there is a interesting term I know nothing about. Not trying to pose, only state my limitations in a debate, you call it lazy schoolarship, I call it dorn room bull sessions. swastikas, star of david, a cross, the flag of the united states of america, if you say I have not right to use them I got no arguement with that, informal or formal. Now there are some things from a course I took in Statistics FOr the Behaviorial sciences. Some of those graphs took on mystical signifcance for me. Probably the effect of the mescaline, but the signicance of the bell curve still fascinates me.
when someone says that values cannot be debated, they mean that they don't wanna have to defend a position.
or that it's not worth the trouble to. a rationalization for intellectual laziness, dressed up as a sleek sophisticated modern attitude or toleration.
but my point is not to judge. only to question. pointed questions. that makes the listener question him/herself.
edited
so I punched your ticket. Not my intention. You mock me I think.why does a certain joker have a swastika on his/her personal image?
not read any greek philosophy, only histories.
edited four times
Symbolic logic, now there is a interesting term I know nothing about. Not trying to pose, only state my limitations in a debate, you call it lazy schoolarship, I call it dorn room bull sessions. swastikas, star of david, a cross, the flag of the united states of america, if you say I have not right to use them I got no arguement with that, informal or formal. Now there are some things from a course I took in Statistics FOr the Behaviorial sciences. Some of those graphs took on mystical signifcance for me. Probably the effect of the mescaline, but the signicance of the bell curve still fascinates me.
Free Rice
Avatar Courtesy of the Baron de Hirsch Fund
'Blessed is he who was not born, Or he, who having been born, has died. But as for us who live, woe unto us, Because we see the afflictions of Zion, And what has befallen Jerusalem." Pseudepigrapha
Avatar Courtesy of the Baron de Hirsch Fund
'Blessed is he who was not born, Or he, who having been born, has died. But as for us who live, woe unto us, Because we see the afflictions of Zion, And what has befallen Jerusalem." Pseudepigrapha
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gypsyjoker
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Ok I am finished editing the one above. This one is open in word, so hopefully it will be only rated two aspirin for punctuation : ) Everything in this text box is debatable,especially my punctuation 
. I am about to google Pierce,
I have already run across the name in Phenomenology. Husserl my first love there. But I would be interested in discussing, Heidegger.
http://www.educ.uvic.ca/edci/Outlines/D-edci522.htm
I may keep editing this but I will save the first draft in different font color in the same text box. If you reply to a post I will consider it locked and not make any edits except maybe to underline typos or mis spellings etc.
hammer hammer
. I am about to google Pierce, I have already run across the name in Phenomenology. Husserl my first love there. But I would be interested in discussing, Heidegger.
http://www.educ.uvic.ca/edci/Outlines/D-edci522.htm
I may keep editing this but I will save the first draft in different font color in the same text box. If you reply to a post I will consider it locked and not make any edits except maybe to underline typos or mis spellings etc.
hammer hammer
Free Rice
Avatar Courtesy of the Baron de Hirsch Fund
'Blessed is he who was not born, Or he, who having been born, has died. But as for us who live, woe unto us, Because we see the afflictions of Zion, And what has befallen Jerusalem." Pseudepigrapha
Avatar Courtesy of the Baron de Hirsch Fund
'Blessed is he who was not born, Or he, who having been born, has died. But as for us who live, woe unto us, Because we see the afflictions of Zion, And what has befallen Jerusalem." Pseudepigrapha
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gypsyjoker
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ok still have not done the home work on him. Brentano another name associated with Husserl.
That phenomenological naked lunch what is on the end of fork approach to this is what I strive for. Husserl not that many lingo words, as I understand it Wittengstien (not responsibel for spelling, just a openn text box. Well old Witt was as close to a plain language philosopher as we got. I do not know what status WalterKaufmann has as a philosopher, but I have read a lot of his stuff (four or five books a lot for a truck driver)
be back on pierce.
That phenomenological naked lunch what is on the end of fork approach to this is what I strive for. Husserl not that many lingo words, as I understand it Wittengstien (not responsibel for spelling, just a openn text box. Well old Witt was as close to a plain language philosopher as we got. I do not know what status WalterKaufmann has as a philosopher, but I have read a lot of his stuff (four or five books a lot for a truck driver)
be back on pierce.
Free Rice
Avatar Courtesy of the Baron de Hirsch Fund
'Blessed is he who was not born, Or he, who having been born, has died. But as for us who live, woe unto us, Because we see the afflictions of Zion, And what has befallen Jerusalem." Pseudepigrapha
Avatar Courtesy of the Baron de Hirsch Fund
'Blessed is he who was not born, Or he, who having been born, has died. But as for us who live, woe unto us, Because we see the afflictions of Zion, And what has befallen Jerusalem." Pseudepigrapha
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gypsyjoker
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Malaise, they say Freud did some good work on that subject. About where I am right now. caught a cold almost, on the edge of one, the head ache helps focus, either that or attend to it. so going to take a chance a wing it, for me the ultimate pentulitame, the holy grail? no we no what that is, this is after the holy grail, the nature of reality. I speak purely as a college sophomore, because like Nietzsche not having enough time for experience, I can't lose any sleep over the nature of reality. If you were writing a history of the future.what would be going on in the headlines on march 16, 2007 in Argentina? My head lines would be President Rockefeller of THe United States is greeted by cheering millions in B.A.
just an elaborate excuse for not doing my homework yet. I run on statistics, but I try to be careful about trying to make predictions, especialy about the future..
just an elaborate excuse for not doing my homework yet. I run on statistics, but I try to be careful about trying to make predictions, especialy about the future..
Free Rice
Avatar Courtesy of the Baron de Hirsch Fund
'Blessed is he who was not born, Or he, who having been born, has died. But as for us who live, woe unto us, Because we see the afflictions of Zion, And what has befallen Jerusalem." Pseudepigrapha
Avatar Courtesy of the Baron de Hirsch Fund
'Blessed is he who was not born, Or he, who having been born, has died. But as for us who live, woe unto us, Because we see the afflictions of Zion, And what has befallen Jerusalem." Pseudepigrapha
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