Variations

Critiques, prompts & challenges.
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SadLuckDame
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Post by SadLuckDame » October 4th, 2009, 12:45 am

I read an entire poetry book on this stuff and it was like a different language. But then my magician friend taught me the counts, with much patience (I think it took over a year, lol) and when I was reading Lewis Carrol's poetry, like The Walrus and the Carpenter, it just clicked like never before.

So, although I'm still slightly miffed on the language and some stresses, I do have some sort of an idea of what to work towards as far as the actual rhythm from hearing Lewis Carrol's stuff read aloud.

I'll study more of your posts on it, too.

Dangit, I knew that damn delightfully was tricking me up.

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stilltrucking
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Post by stilltrucking » October 4th, 2009, 9:44 am

I suppose you are right about me Yejun.
I am lazy and apathetic
I just want to read a poem
I don't want to take a pop quiz whether I got it
What I suppose I meant was I am glad for you that there are poets here who can discuss this with you.

BTW I said i am tune deaf
something different than tone deaf.
and I am also tone deaf.

I probably miss a lot of the enjoyment of a poem
I am only grateful that I get what I can
Constantine for example
I find his poetry very satisfying
even if I don't get what you are saying about about the meter and stresses.
Revolution Rabit
same
Judih, and wireman and doreen.
And Auden too.

My brother once tried to teach someone to play guitar
She kept saying I can't play guitar
After three months he realized she was right

"What we can't reach running we must limp to" mangled quote from Freud from geezer memory.
Thanks for the poetry.

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stilltrucking
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Post by stilltrucking » October 4th, 2009, 12:53 pm

I was not being sarcastic Yejun. I am glad there are those here who can discuss these things with you.
"What we cannot reach flying we must reach limping" Freud Beyond The Pleasure Principle

"The book tells us it is no sin to limp." Freud quoting from Friedrich Ruckert’s version of Al-Hariri


"a man has got to know his limitations" Dirty Harry

Yejun
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Post by Yejun » October 6th, 2009, 7:46 pm

Doreen,

I thought the last time we had an aesthetic discussion was on punctuation at PIP. I thought you won that won. Albeit, that must have been pretty close to ten years ago.

I don't have any problem with your description as a genre of music. I find it a little baffling when people think it's the same thing as music whether it be Paul Simon or Mozart. It bothers me because the expectations, when you go to either kind of performance, should be different in order to gain any satisfaction from it.

Pinsky is not Pink.

In pop music, in hip/hop, even in folk music, the meaning is secondary to the rhythm/melody. In poetry, meaning becomes much, much more important.

How many times have I heard over the years, "Yeah, but what does it mean?" Now, it makes sense to ask that with some of my stuff because I'm big on negative space, I use allusions, and personal anecdotes, and they don't always connect as clearly as some would like (and sometimes I just screw up); but the point is that the sound, for many people, is secondary to the content in poetry.

Of course, it's also true that people can't understand something unless they already understand it (racism is bad, fighting the good fight is good, fathers and mothers love their children etc.). :wink:

When was the last time you heard anybody (except perhaps critics) argue that about a successful pop song?

Now, if you argue that the sense is often in the sound and can't always be easily paraphrased -- hell -- I agree with that, but many people aren't really comfortable with that state of limbo.

And such a view creates its own problems as well.

It's just easier to say that music and poetry are different genres in art and the expectations for each will therefore be different.

Music and poetry and dance for that matter are all temporal arts.

Painting, photography, sculpture are spatial.

And that's usually where I draw the line.

(Wait! I can almost hear it: visual arts are both spatial and temporal. Sure, but then we're talking about movies, animation, etc.)

But I'll wait, I'll wait.
:D

Yejun
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Post by Yejun » October 9th, 2009, 5:25 pm

Dame (kind),
I read an entire poetry book on this stuff and it was like a different language.


Do you remember the name of the book? I've started to collect prosody guides. This may sound stupid but I enjoy the little differences in each.
But then my magician friend taught me the counts, with much patience (I think it took over a year, lol) and when I was reading Lewis Carrol's poetry, like The Walrus and the Carpenter, it just clicked like never before.
I'm not sure who said this (Marilyn Hacker?) but if she sees a student reading or writing a poem and counting on her fingers or tapping it out, she feels she has something in common with her.

I know the feeling you talk about. Lewis Carrol is great. I plan to use "Jabberwocky" in the next thread.
So, although I'm still slightly miffed on the language and some stresses, I do have some sort of an idea of what to work towards as far as the actual rhythm from hearing Lewis Carrol's stuff read aloud.
Yeah, it gets frustrating at times (Why won't the language just do what I want it to do?) but it's fun. Another trick that helps is memorizing a couple of metrical poems. Trust me, it's not that hard.

And there's no reason you have to stop writing free stuff at the same time.

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SadLuckDame
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Post by SadLuckDame » October 9th, 2009, 5:33 pm

Sure. I read second edition Sound and Sense An Introduction to Poetry by Laurence Perrine.

I love the Jabberwocky. I like the mathematics in Lewis Carroll's stuff, now that I know more of what to look for when reading it.
`Do you know, I was so angry, Kitty,' Alice went on...`when I saw all the mischief you had been doing, I was very nearly opening the window, and putting you out into the snow! And you'd have deserved it, you
little mischievous darling!
~Lewis Carroll

Yejun
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Post by Yejun » October 10th, 2009, 10:09 am

I suppose you are right about me Yejun.
I am lazy and apathetic
When did I call you either of those things? I get very confused when someone accuses me of something I didn't do.
I just want to read a poem
Me too.

I don't want to take a pop quiz whether I got it
Did I give you a pop quiz? I'm so sorry, I find such things difficult to understand. Did you read what I wrote or just pretend you were back in school? What I keep hearing is a knee-jerk reaction to anything related to academia. Okay, but let's not throw the baby out with the phalloeurologocentrism.
What I suppose I meant was I am glad for you that there are poets here who can discuss this with you.
How condescending of you?
Last edited by Yejun on October 10th, 2009, 11:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Yejun
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Post by Yejun » October 10th, 2009, 10:21 am

I was not being sarcastic Yejun. I am glad there are those here who can discuss these things with you.
Thanks. Um, I don't believe you. :wink:

"a man has got to know his limitations" Dirty Harry

Well done.

a MAN has GOT to KNOW his LI mi TA tions, DIR ty HAR ry

perfect.

*Note: I've edited some of my previous comments. While I think they were accurate, I thought they were too confrontational.

I'm not looking for a fight but let me reiterate:

My goal here is to take something that is not academic or scholarly but has been made to seem so and get it back to where it belongs. At the same time, I hope to provide more tools for those who want more tools in their writing. If you don't care, that's fine.

If I'm screwing up, let me know.

When Doreen talks about "hearing" and I talk about "feel" we're talking about the same thing.

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stilltrucking
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Post by stilltrucking » October 11th, 2009, 8:03 pm


Yejun
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Joined: December 22nd, 2007, 4:17 pm

Post by Yejun » October 12th, 2009, 8:41 pm

I quite like that one actually. It's not metrical if that's what you're asking.

The structure matches the theme: the reader feels disoriented even as the speaker talks of disorientation.

But, but . . .

is that the only kind of poem he wants to write? If so, nothing I can do about it. If not, meter is one place to start. Sentence structure is another.

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