After Israel has left Gaza - (yikes)

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stilltrucking
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Post by stilltrucking » September 27th, 2005, 5:19 am

And I wonder, Still I wonder
Who'll stop the rain.
And all I can think of is Dr Swift, Gulliver’s Travels and Yahoos. Do you think the government of the United States understands? I don’t think so.
"We understand the situation in which Israel finds itself," McCormack said.


They say the IRA has finally disarmed.

just a mourning morning maniac ramble for peace

I just ate a peach, it was delicious. Made me happy to be alive.
Take care

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judih
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Post by judih » September 27th, 2005, 10:49 pm

I'm alive. Have a terrible cold but not bad enough to stay home from teaching. I might duck out early. I don't really want to make this a daily news report, but "Ha'aretz.com" says it all so clearly.

Another night, another rock'n rollin collection of windows on the kibbutz. The booms happen infrequently but when they do, we, who sit in the Kibbutz Dining Room, look at one another and say: Sound Barrier? One of Israel's 'noisy' bombs? (a bomb whose bark is far worse than its bite) A qassam? (Palestinian home-made bomb)

In any case, here's the lowdown.

Link: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/629840.html

Image

This photo was released Tuesday by Hamas. The militant group claims it shows Israeli businessman Sasson Nuriel, who was kidnapped and shot. (AP)


Last update - 05:23 28/09/2005


IAF strikes Gaza; W. Bank Hamas planning atacks

By Jonathan Lis, Haaretz Correspondent, and News Agencies

Israel Air Forces aircrafts fired a number of missiles at targets in Gaza City early Wednesday, knocking out power and plunging the city into darkness. No injuries were immediately reported.

On Tuesday, security forces said cells of the militant group Hamas were still planning attacks on Israel, despite the organizations' announcement that it would stop firing at southern towns.

Missiles landed in at least three locations. One air strike hit a two-story building used by the ruling Fatah party in Gaza City. The offices provide tutoring lessons to school children, and cash and food assistance to families in Tufah. The attack left a big hole in a wall of the building, smashed windows and destroyed an electrical transformer. Windows on several nearby houses were broken, and a car was damaged by flying debris.


Ambulances raced to the scene minutes after the blast, but there were no immediate reports of damage or injuries, Palesetinian witnesses said.

Missiles also landed in the Bureij refugee camp, just south of the city.

Minutes later, an aircraft attacked a building belonging the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, a small militant group, in Bureij, and fired missiles into central Gaza City. The PFLP office suffered heavy damage.

The army said it was attacking offices used for terrorist activity. Israel has carried out a series of air strikes in recent days aimed at Islamic militant targets.

An hour later, another missile was fired in the northern Gaza Strip early Wednesday. The army said the air strike in Beit Hanun targeted a road leading to an area used by Palestinian militants to fire rockets.

West Bank Hamas plans new attacks in spite of 'lull'
Certain Hamas cells in the West Bank have resumed trying to carry out attacks against Israeli targets, even though the organization's leadership remains officially committed to the "lull" in the violence, defense officials said on Tuesday.

The officials said that at least two Hamas networks, in Ramallah and Hebron, have resumed planning attacks. This assessment is based on intelligence information, and not only on the recent kidnap and murder of Jerusalem resident Sasson Nuriel.

On Tuesday, Hamas claimed responsibility for killing Nuriel, who was kidnapped a week ago but whose body was discovered near Ramallah only on Monday. The organization released a videotape of Nuriel in captivity apparently made shortly before his murder. In the tape, Nuriel appears with his face covered and his hands bound, and he urges the government, in Arabic, at his captors' demand, to release all Palestinian prisoners held by Israel.

In its statement, Hamas said it kidnapped Nuriel in order to exchange him for Palestinians held by Israel, but the army's massive arrest operation in the West Bank this week compelled it to kill Nuriel instead. Hamas also threatened to kidnap additional Israelis, warning: "The operation is just beginning." The army said it takes this threat seriously and reiterated that Israelis are forbidden to enter areas controlled by the Palestinian Authority.

Hamas developed considerable expertise in kidnapping during the 1990s, kidnapping at least 10 soldiers between 1989 and 1996, at which point it switched its focus to suicide bombings. Moreover, Hamas operatives believe that even if the Palestinian public is tired of terror attacks in general, no Palestinian will oppose a kidnapping aimed at securing prisoner releases, along the lines of Hezbollah's swap of a kidnapped Israeli for 400 prisoners held by Israel in January 2004.

Also on Tuesday, the Shin Bet security service and the police revealed that a month ago they arrested Yakub Abu Assab, a senior Hamas operative who lives in East Jerusalem. According to the Shin Bet, he confessed under interrogation to having received hundreds of thousands of dollars from Hamas operatives in Saudi Arabia and transferred it to Hamas cells in Ramallah, Bethlehem and Hebron. He also transmitted orders from Hamas leaders overseas to West Bank operatives.

IDF raids Hamas, Islamic Jihad offices in Tul Karm, Qalqilyah
IDF troops swept into two West Bank towns before dawn on Wednesday in a raid on offices of Hamas and Islamic Jihad militants, witnesses said.

The IDF had no immediate comment on the raids.

Witnesses said 15 army vehicles had stopped outside offices of both militant groups in the central West Bank town of Tul Karm where troops launched searches and confiscated equipment.

More than two dozen other army vehicles raided the offices of Islamic charities suspected of aiding Hamas in the town of Qalqilyah, south of Tul Karm, witnesses said.

Livni calls off meeting with PA prisoner affairs min.

Justice Minister Tzipi Livni called off a Wednesday meeting with Palestinian minister for Prisoner Affairs Sufyan Abu Zaydeh as a response to the footage of the kidnapping, Israel Radio said.

The ministers were set to discuss prisoner release, but Livni said that it must be made clear to the Palestinians that they cannot use violence and kidnapping to achieve such a deal.

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Post by Doreen Peri » September 28th, 2005, 12:01 am

judih.... I've been watching this thread since you started it and have been wanting to pipe in and say something but I just don't have words to say.... I am at a loss .... all I can say is that I think of you every day and I'm concerned. Please be safe.

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Post by judih » September 28th, 2005, 8:08 am

safe!
Don't forget that Israel is so narrow that if someone sneezes in Jerusalem, we over in the Negev say "Leh Brioot" (to health) or 'bless you'.

i'm okay. This is the down to earth reality, but far from the horrors of a sudden tsunami or hurricane. In bits and shreds we live through our individual realities.

But yes, the family and I are fine. Tonight, i'm guarding at the kibbutz gate. Hope to catch up on my reading.

judih

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Post by judih » July 9th, 2006, 11:36 pm

deb posted something here (a double post) and i deleted it, but then i realized that she had added a message, so i'm quoting it here to respect her original intent. The rest of the post can be seen in Eyewitness reports in my thread on the Dead Sea and Kibbutz Ein Gedi.

Here is the preamble to her post:

"***Note: I meant for this post to be in this thread:
http://www.studioeight.tv/phpbb/viewtop ... 9252#49252
Dead Sea & Kibbutz Ein Gedi
July 8, 2006

My initiating quote from Judih which starts this reply is from the thread above (Dead Sea & Kibbutz), not this one. Sorry for the confusion.

After seeing I had posted this in the wrong place, I went back and reposted this entire response in the correct link above.

I decided to leave this post here also because - it's fitting, it belongs here as well. For I had actually wanted actually to say this back then ... but had allowed a supposed friendship to prevent me from speaking out here at the time. This mistake then, rectifies that problem and brings settlement and resolution to the situation once and for all.

Again, I apologize for any confusion
--Deb*** "

My comment:
I'm not sure why 'friendship' would discourage you, deb, from posting your article. It's an article that exists on the net - it's not something you wrote. It was written in all good conscience by the author and you chose it to indicate a point you were trying to make.

Since that article, changes have been made in the country. Every day, every month brings change.
Eyewitness means we see the change, as it happens.

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Post by whimsicaldeb » July 10th, 2006, 11:15 am

deb posted something here (a double post) and i deleted it, but then i realized that she had added a message, so i'm quoting it here to respect her original intent. - Judih
You’re are not the moderator of this section of the board, thus unless my posting was vulgar and it wasn’t you did not have the right to remover or edit my posts in any way.

IMO you have misused your power and authority against me and my postings because you are personally having a problem with my commentaries. If I had wanted it deleted, I would have deleted it myself. If I had wanted it 'edited' I would have edited it myself.

With your actions, you’ve just revealed another side of yourself that agains surprised me. It's a side the seems to keeps deep company with that part of you the lies by omission.

You speak and post of Palestinian waste, but you don’t mention Israeli waste. You speak of how the government and industry added to the decline of the Dead Sea but you don’t speak of how the Kibbutz also did, and still do.

You present only what you'd want others to see or know, but you do not present the full picture, the full situation. That's not only obvious bias, it's also lying about a situation by omission.

Something Bush&Co does very well btw (just like you). Imagine that.

So you lie by omission and you write or post – and now censor others writings – to support your bias. If it's anything other then a “beautiful” or “positive” picture of Israel, Isrealis and Kibbutzs - you ignore it as best you can, until someone like myself comes along and makes it more difficult for you to keep choosing to turn that blind eye of yours.

You say "... i'm quoting it here to respect her original intent."

Your words and actions show no respect.

You say ... "I'm not sure why 'friendship' would discourage you, deb, from posting your article."

Well, maybe someone will explain it to you someday, but it won't be me.

Like I said at the end of the posting you so conveniently deleted… and chose to leave out of this; your re-edited version of my post:

Move this thread, my comments, where ever you will
spin this however you wish

It doesn’t, won’t, change the facts

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Post by panta rhei » July 10th, 2006, 11:46 am

deb, your last words are still there -- in your post on that other thread (dead sea) in this very forum.

judih did not censor, but merely deleted a double post of yours. all your words are still there!

i wonder what it is about this topic (israel) that keeps upsetting you so much (we've had that before, hadn't we?)...

these threads present different aspects of certain topics. together, they could help us all to get a better idea of the whole picture... if we're willing to listen.

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judih
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Post by judih » July 10th, 2006, 1:05 pm

deb, i am not the moderator of this section of the board, but i am administrator. As such i have the ability to delete double posts.
You can read your post in the thread concerning the Dead Sea.

You seem to think that by searching on the net for articles, you are able to present the True Picture of life here. Since you don't live here and have never visited here, i find it surprising that you keep adding to this Eyewitness, as if your found information is the one true answer.

If you feel i am lying by omission, then what i can i say about you who continue to bypass the fact that you do not see the whole picture, neither the history of who does what when, or who is involved. You take snippets of articles and brandish them as the whole truth. What is the whole truth? Can we ever know? Yet, i do not call you a liar by omission - you can only present information that you're uncovering. And, obviously, you can not uncover everything because for one thing, you wouldn't know what to look for, and for another, it's impossible to find 'everything!'

There is no one statement to cover all facts. Look beyond your anger at me, personally, which seems to be blinding you to possibly new discoveries.

Again, googling will bring you anything on any subject. That one thing may very well be accurate, but along with it are a hundred pieces of the mosaic that are equally valid.

Again, i do have the right to edit, but i will tell you when i'm editing - & i don't hide or change words. There is no censorship.

This is an opportunity to ask, to share, to bring forth ideas that most people don't even think about.

There are treaties between Jordan, Syria and Israel that together have resulted in drinking water for all three countries, but at the expense of the Dead Sea. The situation of the Dead Sea is not caused by the kibbutz, and i repeat this to you. The mineral springs of Ein Gedi could have run into the Dead Sea and people could have had less green lawns and less water to drink, but that is not a meaningful addition to the level of the Dead Sea.

The Jordan river was dammed by agreement with Jordan - it was part of a treaty for water. It wasn't a 'kibbutz' decision.

If you choose to open your mind to the possiblity that the picture is larger than one or two articles and rather encompasses the whole region and years of history, then you'll see that everything is a part of this story.

It's all connected. One quotation does not offer an answer or a 'final word' on an issue, but it does trigger discussion.
Last edited by judih on July 10th, 2006, 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by whimsicaldeb » July 10th, 2006, 1:23 pm

judih did not censor, but merely deleted a double post of yours. all your words are still there!
..."merely"

!

I didn't want it deleted panta. That's the point! This was not a "mere" action or reaction on her part. It was her decision, her choice of action as a response. That's the issue.

I had decided my posting acutally did fit and was fine in BOTH threads and my "Note" said as such:
I decided to leave this post here also because - it's fitting, it belongs here as well. For I had actually wanted actually to say this back then ... but had allowed a supposed friendship to prevent me from speaking out here at the time. This mistake then, rectifies that problem and brings settlement and resolution to the situation once and for all. -- me from the original post
After saying this, posting this - clearly as I did - Judih had NO RIGHT to come into my post and either delete it at all, or then go back put up an edited by her version of it.

So what if it's the same thing in two places? What I posted applied to BOTH issues and if you had read them thoroughly you would have seen and known that.

I understand that you are loyal to your friend, but this is no "mere' action - nor is my response to this unreasonable. Except perhaps in your opinion.

Also, if you want to take all this and twist it to mean that I’m being 'anti-semitic' or 'anti-israel' or whatever and then believe what you've twists as "the truth" ... then go ahead, because there is nothing I can do about that. It's not true, but if you want to think that and believe that about me ... there is nothing I can do about it.

For "The Record" ... It's not Israel that is upsetting me ... it's all the lies, deceptions, and double talk; and that it's Judih personally doing these lies, deceptions and double talks about these issues that bothers me.

And it seems to me that the questions shouldn't be about why these types of things are bothering me ~ the question should be why aren't these actions bothering you? Why is what she did, what she's doing, 'okay' with you?

!!!

Now, if you want to view all this as me being 'anti-israel' or 'anti-semitic' go ahead. It goes along with being called 'anti-american' because I don't believe and go along with what Bush&Co and his followers are doing as well.
Last edited by whimsicaldeb on July 10th, 2006, 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by judih » July 10th, 2006, 1:27 pm

deb, again, let me remind you that this thread refers to the Gaza strip.
Your post refers to the Dead Sea. That's the reason i moved it.

That you felt this was the right place is a little confusing to me. That you decide that i'm bush&co is a little bizarre, but you have your opinion.

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Post by whimsicaldeb » July 10th, 2006, 1:34 pm

I was not your place to move or edit my posting even if it you felt it was in the "wrong" place by your determination. You are not the moderator of this section.

Furthermore you could have stated then what you state now...

deb, again, let me remind you that this thread refers to the Gaza strip.

But (again), YOU didn't.

You deleted it
then edited it,
and then say this AFTERWARDS.

denial and double talk.

Also my replies DID and DO belong here - because they concerned WASTE products and this thread is not just about Gaza - it's about the WASTE going into Gaza. And my postings were about how the WASTES are going into many more places than just `or merely ` Gaza.

But ~ you've decided it doesn't belong here ... so it's no longer here.

So be it.

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Post by judih » July 10th, 2006, 1:43 pm

i am administrator, i repeat, so i have the right to remove double posts. i did not delete it.

If you insist, i'll bring it back. It's not worth your anger at this, of all things.
Do you want me to bring it back here, deb?
as administrator, i can do it.

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Post by stilltrucking » July 10th, 2006, 1:44 pm

Listen to me for a minute First sisters.

Deb I posted a lament for perezoso on Cecil's board. He deleted it. He explained his reasons. I got no problem with that.

J I can't read those newspaper reports. Some people remember the Alamo
I remember the USS Liberty and the news paper reports of that.
I don't know how JFK will go down history his regime was so short. But I admire his newspaper reading habits. He read or scanned seven of them every day, NY Times, LA Times, Cleveland Plain Dealer, St Louis Post Dispatch, Baltimore Sun...Washington Post...I forgot the rest.


As usual I am one step in back of my sisters and my slow moving dreams.
you speak of the water wars.

I am still lost in the oil wars

And I am lost in the sound of a passing train
It has gravitas
it must be loaded
floor shakes.

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whimsicaldeb
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Post by whimsicaldeb » July 10th, 2006, 2:11 pm

i am administrator, i repeat, so i have the right to remove double posts. i did not delete it. -- posted by Judih

If you insist, i'll bring it back. It's not worth your anger at this, of all things.
Do you want me to bring it back here, deb?
as administrator, i can do it. -- posted by Judih, Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:43 am
And you wonder why I can compare you to Bush&Co...

Let me show why:

Yesterday Judih wrote this:
deb posted something here (a double post) and i deleted it, but then i realized that she had added a message, so i'm quoting it here to respect her original intent. The rest of the post can be seen in Eyewitness reports in my thread on the Dead Sea and Kibbutz Ein Gedi. -- posted by Judih on Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:36 pm
And then today Judih writes this:
i am administrator, i repeat, so i have the right to remove double posts. i did not delete it.
I'm not making this up, I'm an not putting words in her mouth, I'm not an adminstrator and going back and "adjusting" her posts. These are the facts, these are the lies, this is the denial and double talk - first she says one thing, and then when you question her - she changes her tune and says another. Usually the complete opposite. And if you should have the audicity to say anything at all about this, or point this out ... her friends will jump up to defend her by impying you're 'anti' (__________) [fill in the blank - whatever they feel will work the best for that time].

And if it's still a surprise to anyone why I'm angry and why Judih and I are no longer friends - then you'd be the person who needs the most help of all of us!
Do you want me to bring it back here, deb?
as administrator, i can do it.
No.

Do NOT put the post back in full now. You should have put it back in full then - WHEN YOU DELETED IT! But you didn't then, and all this has happened since. So ...

Do NOT go back and edit or remove any of my posts and replies - or your own now either.

and..

Leave things AS THEY ARE!

For they show the truth as it really is ~ beyond what you say the truth is, or was, or would have us believe it to be.

Shit's shit ...and it all stinks ~ in any and all of it's forms. And after all ~ this thread is 'also' about SHIT.

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Post by panta rhei » July 10th, 2006, 2:17 pm

Also, if you want to take all this and twist it to mean that I’m being 'anti-semitic' or 'anti-israel' or whatever and then believe what you've twists as "the truth" ... then go ahead, because there is nothing I can do about that. It's not true, but if you want to think that and believe that about me ... there is nothing I can do about it.
oh deb - i never said such a thing. i was merely wondering why judih's eyewitness reports keep upsetting you like that and provoke your extreme reactions. i've never seen you react like this in response to others' posts or reports.
For "The Record" ... It's not Israel that is upsetting me ... it's all the lies, deceptions, and double talk; and that it's Judih personally doing these lies, deceptions and double talks about these issues that bothers me.
i know -- it's something you've tried to explain to me before. it's hard to understand for me, though, why a friend's different version and viewpoints, her reporting of own experiences and observations does stir you up emotionally like that.

why is it so hard for you to add her personal observations to your web-found facts and have a look at the new picture with an open mind?
And it seems to me that the questions shouldn't be about why these types of things are bothering me ~ the question should be why aren't these actions bothering you? Why is what she did, what she's doing, 'okay' with you?
that's simple - because i don't see judih "doing" anything anywhere that is un-okay for any reason. i just see her reporting and taking her time to reply to your comments.


to me, all this seems to be not so much about the environmental issues in israel, but about the personal dissappointment in another person for personal reasons.

it is your right to be dissappointed, and it is also your right to express this dissappointment -- but to express this in a kind and respectful way would be a lot more helpful to understand each other and approach the "whole picture", or "the truth", or whatever together than your voice of anger now is.

i don't mean this as an insult, deb -- i understand that this is a highly emotional topic for you, and i don't know exactly why, but i'd like to remind you that this is not about blame. again, this is about speaking and listening to each other in mutal respect.

let's just remember that, okay?

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