After Israel has left Gaza - (yikes)

[panta rhei]

oh deb, come on! that's splitting hairs on words now... fact is, judih didn't delete your words, but merely (yes, merely!) deleted a double post of yours - and all your words are still there, she even pointed that out, and also where to find that post.

that thing is really not worth the anger, and the fact that you keep insisting on it only shows that you seem to look for some proof for something you've already made your mind about.

i'm really sorry about that.

[whimsicaldeb]

fact is, judih didn't delete your words, but merely (yes, merely!) deleted a double post of yours -- panta

No panta that's not true, and not what happened. Go back and reread her words.

Judih deleted my post - she says so herself. A post I had specifically said I did not want deleted.

Then after seeing that I had specificallys I said I didn't want it deleted - instead of replacing my orginal post in full as I wrote - she made an administrative decision and replaced my post with HER version of my post - one that specifically shows she deleted all the content I had orginally posted.

Yes, this made me angry, and still makes me angry. And I'm sorry you have a problem with that - you may feel my anger is out of proportion or out of line, but I do not. Further - I will continue to get angry each time I'm treaded this way - whether it's by Judih with one of my posts, or from Bush&Co about science and environmental facts.

As for this ...

i was merely wondering why judih's eyewitness reports keep upsetting you like that and provoke your extreme reactions. i've never seen you react like this in response to others' posts or reports.

You've changed the content of your original comment to me ... aka: you're doing exactly what J does: changings things after the fact to make them, and yourself, look so reasonable and the other person 'irrational' because they've complained - or spoken out.

What you first said to me was this:

i wonder what it is about this topic (israel) that keeps upsetting you so much (we've had that before, hadn't we?)...

First - Israel isn't what's upsetting me. You put that in - You're saying that - no me. Can you also see how when removing "israel" now from your orginal comment you've changed the whole tone and content of your orginial.

The comments that got deleted contained information about the WASTE (the SHIT!) that's not just (or merely) Palestinian - but is also Israeli and Jordanian as well. Something Judih's orginial postings don't say - but needs to be said, for balance. I keep trying to show how raw waste is being dumped into the environment by all THREE countries and how thats effecting everything - and that was what was deleted.

And yes, that also makes me angry. Again - as it should.

It's easy to say someone has misunderstood, it's easy to dismiss others complaints with justifications of actions such as "oh, they were merely."

Way WAY too easy.

J does it, now you show me you do it too. I'm not surprised.

As for this ...

i know -- it's something you've tried to explain to me before. it's hard to understand for me, though, why a friend's different version and viewpoints, her reporting of own experiences and observations does stir you up emotionally like that.

Ahhh.... Give me a break! Friends don't lie, and deny, and double talk to each other and don't expect me to believe that you don't or can't understand that.

What you are calling 'splitting hairs' I'm calling lies, denial, twisted truths and double talk. Those are my views, different than Judih's - different than yours.

Why are you making such a big deal over my posting them?

My answers of why all this bothers me is the same as it was before, the same as it has been all along ... and hasn't changed since the first time:

For "The Record" ... It's not Israel that is upsetting me ... it's all the lies, deceptions, and double talk; and that it's Judih personally doing these lies, deceptions and double talks about these issues that bothers me.

I've just spoken openly about it all now, here at S8, that's all.

And I still say that if you're NOT bothered by this - and in fact think what happened is all 'fine' and 'okay' - then that speaks volumes about you, and what you value as well as what you don't.

[whimsicaldeb]

As for having conversations about the actually issues - that can only happen - and make a difference - when all this other 'crap' is out of the way.

As long as there is denial of facts, denial of culpability, denial of actions, twisted truths, only one side presented and editing of others words and postings by a biased administrator ... no conversation (or lasting changes) concerning this will ever happen.

All these back & forths and what was said & done ... has taken time and energy away from the real issues at hand. And perhaps that’s the real (if not subconscious) reason behind all of this …

As for me, I'm done. Trying to talk to Judih (you) about these things has left a very bitter taste in my mouth, and heart - and I don't need either of those in my life.

[Doreen Peri]

OK. Stop.

Please. No more arguing, OK?

Judih deleted a double post. I do that a lot myself. As an Admin, she can do that. It wasn't anything personal.

Some sites don't allow double posts because they don't want their database to be needlessly larger than it needs to be. We don't have a problem with them here because I understand that sometimes people want to post the same words in different places for different reasons. We have quite a large capacity for storage with our host so we don't tell people they are not allowed to make duplicate posts.

But, please quit arguing about it. Many people post duplicate posts in error and when I see a double post, I usually delete it. It's just part of working here.

So, stop arguing and next time, Deb, if you WANT a duplicate post, please preface your post with "I posted this already in such-in-such a thread but I feel it warrented repeating in this thread" or something like that. That way, it will be clear that your double-post was intended.

Carry on. Be nice.

Thanks.

Love to all.

[panta rhei]

i didn't change any content of my comments, deb.
in both posts i said that i was wondering what it is about this topic that keeps upsetting you so much. and "this topic" is the topic we're talking about, judih's eyewitness report from israel, the only place she can be an eyewitness to as that's the place she lives in.

that's what i've said. go have a look.

i am not doing what you're accusing me of: "changings things after the fact to make them, and yourself, look so reasonable and the other person 'irrational' because they've complained", and neither does judih.

sorry you're misconcepting things like that, deb.
sorry also that you're seeing "lies, deceptions, and double talk" where there aren't any.

i see you've made up your mind already (again) about judih (and therefore about me, as well, as i am one of "her friends ((who)) will jump up to defend her by impying you're 'anti' (__________) [fill in the blank - whatever they feel will work the best for that time]." anyway, aren't i?), so there is no use in discussing this any further, i think, and i suppose you agree.

if not, let me know.

take care,
-a

edited only to add the following: i read the two previous posts of deb and doreen only after i posted mine. and yes, i agree -- let's stop this and carry on!

[whimsicaldeb]

So, stop arguing and next time, Deb, if you WANT a duplicate post, please preface your post with "I posted this already in such-in-such a thread but I feel it warrented repeating in this thread" or something like that. That way, it will be clear that your double-post was intended. - Doreen

God damn it Doreen - I DID say that!!!!!
Orginally!!!
And that's why this is all so irritating!

This is what I said at the beginning of that post ....

***Note: I meant for this post to be in this thread:
http://www.studioeight.tv/phpbb/viewtop ... 9252#49252
Dead Sea & Kibbutz Ein Gedi
July 8, 2006

My initiating quote from Judih which starts this reply is from the thread above (Dead Sea & Kibbutz), not this one. Sorry for the confusion.

After seeing I had posted this in the wrong place, I went back and reposted this entire response in the correct link above.

I decided to leave this post here also because - it's fitting, it belongs here as well. For I had actually wanted actually to say this back then ... but had allowed a supposed friendship to prevent me from speaking out here at the time. This mistake then, rectifies that problem and brings settlement and resolution to the situation once and for all.

Again, I apologize for any confusion
--Deb***

Doreen... I did what you suggested, and I did it without you (or anyone) needing to tell me to do it.

Judih went in and deleted my posting even with that one it! And then she went back and put in an 'altered' version of my original posting.

You want me to stop arguing over this, I will.

But by my view of things, she's the one not being "nice" - not me.

...

And Panta – all I have to say to you is: "Flower Bridge!" (in Cantonese)

[Doreen Peri]

Sorry. I didn't read the whole thread.

I wasn't here and don't know what happened. I didn't see it before it was deleted.

I just saw that you were upset because your duplicate post had been deleted.

I was only trying to help, as a friend to all... to help relieve the tensions so people would quit being upset and stop arguing with each other.

Pretty poor attempt at peace-making if I got you so upset!

Many apologies.

I'll bow out and mind my own business.

Peace & love to all.

[whimsicaldeb]

Apology accepted and very much appreciated. But yours isn't the one that was most needed (but never arrived - and now is too late).

And I know you want the arguing to stop.

But on this ... I'm being the biggest bulldog type of bitch you can imagine (or stomach) ...

I followed "all the rules" with that post - without being 'told to' ... even had that orginal note written in blue no less! - and she delelted the f*ing thing, and then goes back and posts an alter version - her version. Leaving all the 'meat' out of the post and telling everyone to go to the other thread and find it - leaving it to them to figure out which of mine it was.

In addition, she's never said she's sorry for doing any of that ... no regret or remorse what-so-ever.

Don't believe me? Read for yourself. It's black & white ...
and red all over.

deb posted something here (a double post) and i deleted it, but then i realized that she had added a message, so i'm quoting it here to respect her original intent. The rest of the post can be seen in Eyewitness reports in my thread on the Dead Sea and Kibbutz Ein Gedi.

Here is the preamble to her post:

"***Note: I meant for this post to be in this thread:
http://www.studioeight.tv/phpbb/viewtop ... 9252#49252
Dead Sea & Kibbutz Ein Gedi
July 8, 2006

My initiating quote from Judih which starts this reply is from the thread above (Dead Sea & Kibbutz), not this one. Sorry for the confusion.

After seeing I had posted this in the wrong place, I went back and reposted this entire response in the correct link above.

I decided to leave this post here also because - it's fitting, it belongs here as well. For I had actually wanted actually to say this back then ... but had allowed a supposed friendship to prevent me from speaking out here at the time. This mistake then, rectifies that problem and brings settlement and resolution to the situation once and for all.

Again, I apologize for any confusion
--Deb*** "

My comment:
I'm not sure why 'friendship' would discourage you, deb, from posting your article. It's an article that exists on the net - it's not something you wrote. It was written in all good conscience by the author and you chose it to indicate a point you were trying to make.

Since that article, changes have been made in the country. Every day, every month brings change.
Eyewitness means we see the change, as it happens.

Whatever her reasons for f*ing around with my post ...

I feel wronged by her actions.

And she's not said or done anything to make me think otherwise of her actions and her.

It was done, for me - before she changed my post.

But now ...
Well, I'm slowing done on it all and it'll end when it ends. Staying out of it all while it's going on is a good idea.

When I leave this board, and I will, it won't be because of you Doreen or anything you might think you've done or not done (and that applies to others reading as well) - it'll be because of Judih.

Period.

Because I don't like the crap she does, and how she dishes it out.

...

[Doreen Peri]

Deb. I'm not here to be referree (can't even spell it). Again, I apologize for interfering and thanks for accepting my apology.

But as a friend and a person who cares about this community and my friends (which means all of you who have graced this table with your presence)... I gotta say that I think emotions have run high because of not only the subject matter, but because of the freaking goddamn media.

If you and judih were sitting in the same room with each other physically, not trying to communicate with only the written word, this would not have turned into an argument.

The media is a VERY difficult media.

It's WAY too easy to read between the lines stuff that wasn't intended and it's also way too easy to feel slighted because our posts aren't read thoroughly and our questions aren't answered by those who we are conversing with.

I have been involved in similar situations on the net. I have gotten offended by words typed and gotten offended by words NOT typed because my questions or points were not being addressed.

I don't know what else to say except that I believe people have the best intentions, rather than the worst. For the most part, we all mean well. Oftentimes we react in this media too quickly. All of us.

I know I'm one who needs to read the words more slowly and carefully but yanno what? Even if I did!... something's MISSING! What's missing here is the HUMAN ability to SEE each other's eyes, hear each other's voices. All we have is text AND the text is limited by our ability to communicate with the written word, our ability to decipher the meaning of someone else's words, and our emotional attachments to the topics.

And I mean ALL of us. Every single one of us. So fuck it... you got pissed off, maybe judih got pissed off, i felt the need to intrude because I'm a freaking peacekeeper who can't mind her own freaking business and what the hell...

here's how I look at it..
Life is short and then ya die.
Eat dessert first.

I don't have time for being angry any more and I really believe that on all sides, intentions are GOOD... and I believe that when it comes to politics, too. Most all people believe that what they are doing is good and honorable.

How the hell can we stop the frigging conflict in the middle east if we can't STOP it right HERE in our own home?

Yeah, to me, Studio Eight is my home.

Let's stop fighting, OK? Fuck.

I feel like a fucking mother.

Jesus.

Peace and love and acceptance, my sisters.

I'll shuddup now.

"It is finished." - spoken by the beautiful mythtical human/god

Forgive me for I don't know what I say. (paraphrase)

[Doreen Peri]

PS - apologies again for intruding .. I hate my role as adminstrator of these forums. I'm thinking of taking on a new moniker like other people do just so I can be here ... BECAUSE I am not replying to all this as an administrator, I'm replying as a PERSON but I'm very sure people will take it that way.. that I'm trying to be bossy or in control.

I need 2 advils and a martini.

Peace. Love. Sex. Life. and Hope.

And fuck it. I'm gonna dance. So there!

[judih]

just for the record, and if deb had looked at the timing of my original moving of the post here to the thread it referred to, it was probably about 5 seconds later. Before the post left my computer, i added the part that was the preamble to the post here.

There was no destruction of words. Nor was their regret for moving the main article that the post contained. It was a factual switch. That deb thought it belonged here was her opinion,not mine. That afterwards she chose to roar into fury was her option, not my intent.

i'm sorry that she went the anger route and i offered to re-post the post because of the degree of her anger. She said no - that it was too late, etc. i won't re-hash what she said because she chose to say it in a personal,name-calling manner.

That deb has chosen to make articles a basis for a war - so much so that she would leave the entire studio 8 site, is amazing to me.
In my view, this is an exaggerated reaction to the subject at hand.

There must be underlying fury that is being attached to what is going on here.
Discussion on an internet site has caused rifts in people's relationships, but it has also opened eyes.

Deb continues to label me and now wants to distance herself from many fine people because of what she's done with her own mind. She can quote and build up a case, but often can't see that we are people living on a planet with an underlying common wish - to keep the little bit of civility we've got and expand on it.

A brilliant mind like debs is a great thing. For that mind to get lost in personal anger against not Israel, not the waste of natural resources, but at me, for what she has decided are my 'tactics' is a shame.

i am struck by the beauty of deb's dream - a lone beach - an easily destroyed beach by the foolishness of mankind, and i wonder, who will clean up the beach. Is not the beach first ourselves?

If bombs are heard in the background and black clouds threaten peace, what good will fear do? The only thing to be done is calm oneself and look for inner quiet. Rage within only makes outer circumstances that much worse.

This is off-topic, but it's still eyewitness, because i do and i care very much for what's going on here.

i live in an area where discussion is the only way to a better understanding. i live in an area where war is touching every single soul in this area. War is ugly. Those who have no wars in your backyard, know how lucky you are. Why make war. And why make war on the internet when what's happening here is a series of posts based on a topic.

Yes, i deleted a double post. Sue me! I offered to put it back. Forgive me!
Am i sorry that i deleted? No! Am i sorry that it caused fury? Yes. Can i control another's reactions? No! That's how it is.

If anyone has read all this, thanks. Good morning. Tuesday 6:24 a.m.

[whimsicaldeb]

Am i sorry that i deleted? No!

I know
I knew it then
that's everything ~ right there

[judih]

no! i'm not sorry i deleted because i deleted it only from this After Israel left Gaza thread. It is in the thread about the Dead Sea. Is it still not clear?

This is called organization, not censorship.

[Doreen Peri]

i don't understand any of this.
love you all.. geezz.. repeat..
if we can't get along right here what hope does the world have?

[judih]

Very true.
This, i thought, was the purpose of Eyewitness - to lend some clarity on areas where individuals can offer a personal observation.

The aim is greater exposure to events from a first-hand viewpoint. Getting along is the unwritten rule. Misunderstanding will be part of things because different viewpoints imply just that: differences!

May we all come back to the purpose of the Studio - uniting through the arts, through information, through questioning one another.