"Mideast Dream Team? Not Quite "

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"Mideast Dream Team? Not Quite "

Post by one of those jerks » January 13th, 2009, 4:44 am

By ROGER COHEN
Published: January 11, 2009

Another self hating jew I suppose.
The Obama team is tight with information, but I’ve got the scoop on the senior advisers he’s gathered to push a new Middle East policy as the Gaza war rages: Shibley Telhami, Vali Nasr, Fawaz Gerges, Fouad Moughrabi and James Zogby.

This group of distinguished Arab-American and Iranian-American scholars, with wide regional experience, is intended to signal a U.S. willingness to think anew about the Middle East, with greater cultural sensitivity to both sides, and a keen eye on whether uncritical support for Israel has been helpful.

O.K., forget the above, I’ve let my imagination run away with me. Barack Obama has no plans for this line-up on the Israeli-Palestinian problem and Iran.

In fact, the people likely to play significant roles on the Middle East in the Obama Administration read rather differently.

They include Dennis Ross (the veteran Clinton administration Mideast peace envoy who may now extend his brief to Iran); James Steinberg (as deputy secretary of state); Dan Kurtzer (the former U.S. ambassador to Israel); Dan Shapiro (a longtime aide to Obama); and Martin Indyk (another former ambassador to Israel who is close to the incoming secretary of state, Hillary Clinton.)

Now, I have nothing against smart, driven, liberal, Jewish (or half-Jewish) males; I’ve looked in the mirror. I know or have talked to all these guys, except Shapiro. They’re knowledgeable, broad-minded and determined. Still, on the diversity front they fall short. On the change-you-can-believe-in front, they also leave something to be desired.

In an adulatory piece in Newsweek, Michael Hirsh wrote: “Ross’s previous experience as the indefatigable point man during the failed Oslo process, as well as the main negotiator with Syria, make him uniquely suited for a major renewal of U.S. policy on nearly every front.”

Really? I wonder about the capacity for “major renewal” of someone who has failed for so long.

“Do people in the region take note when Arab-Americans are not represented? Sure they do,” said Zogby, the president of the Arab American Institute in Washington. “A message gets sent.”

It’s important for Obama to get his message right from day one. With the Al Jazeera and Al Arabiya networks broadcasting 24-7 images of the carnage in Gaza, where there are more than 800 dead, mobilization in the Arab world is intense. Rage against Israel, and behind it America, bodes ill.

Change is needed, and not just in the intensity of U.S. diplomatic involvement with Israel-Palestine. Some fundamental questions must be asked.

Does regarding the Middle East almost exclusively through the prism of the war on terror make sense? Does turning a blind eye to the Israeli settlements in the West Bank that frustrate a two-state solution, and the Israeli blockade of Gaza that radicalizes its population, not undermine U.S. interest in bolstering moderate Palestinian sentiment?

Should policy not be directed toward reconciling a Palestinian movement now split between Fatah and Hamas, without which no final-status peace will be possible? Beyond their terrorist wings, in their broad grass-roots political movements, what elements of Hamas and Hezbollah can be coaxed toward the mainstream?

Do we understand the increasingly sophisticated Middle East of Al Jazeera where, as Telhami, a professor at the University of Maryland, put it to me, “People are not dumb and our credibility is at a historic near-zero?”

Asking these questions does not alter America’s commitment to Israel’s security within its pre-1967 borders, which is and should be unwavering. It does not change the unacceptability of Hamas rockets or the fact the Hamas Charter is vile. But it would signal that the damaging Bush-era consensus that Israel can do no wrong is to be challenged.

I don’t feel encouraged — not by the putative Ross-redux team, nor by the nonbinding resolutions passed last week in the Senate and the House of Representatives. The former offered “unwavering commitment” to Israel. The latter recognized “Israel’s right to defend itself against attacks from Gaza.” Neither criticized Israel.

It seems that among liberal democracies, it is only in the U.S .Congress that a defense against terror that results in the slaying of hundreds of Palestinian children is not cause for agonized soul-searching. In my view, such Israeli “defense” has crossed the line.

“We are all opposed to terrorism,” Telhami said. “But how does that enlighten you about how to move forward?”

Enlightenment will require a fresher, broader Mideast team than Obama is contemplating. As noted in “Negotiating Arab-Israeli Peace: American Leadership in the Middle East,” a fine evaluation of U.S. diplomacy by Kurtzer and Scott Lasensky, the lack of expertise on Islam and an Arab perspective was costly at Camp David. At one point, the State Department’s top Arabic translator had to be drafted because “the lack of cross-cultural negotiating skills was so acute.”

Obama should take note, name an Arab-American and an Iranian-American to prominent roles, and beware of a team that takes him — and the region — back to the future.

He said during the campaign that “an unwavering pro-Likud approach to Israel” can’t be “the measure of our friendship with Israel.” Those were words. Now, with Gaza blood flowing, come deeds.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/12/opini ... ml?_r=1&em
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Post by the mingo » January 13th, 2009, 10:30 am

Our nation does not and has never understood the Israeli-Palestinian war, Jack Looking. No American president has understood it & you can already tell our incoming president is likely also to be boring in this respect. Here, let me ask you, without googling, can you name the founder of Hamas? What he founded it for? What happened to him and when? Do you think Obama knows? If he does know do you think he considers it important? The Israeli Rabin died for shaking hands with Arafat. Shot by one of his own. In cold blood. The Egyptian president Anwar Sadat was assassinated by his own, also in cold blood, for making peace with Israel. How many Palestinians do you think have met death at the hands of other Palestinians because they dared to voice a hope of peace with Israel for themselves & their children? You can bet more than one. Have you ever heard of a "Palestinian peace party?" No? Why not? It was the actions of outside powers that helped to turn smoke into the raging fire we know as the "Mideast" today. Now those same outside powers go around with the phrase "peace process" dripping off their lips at every other word as if it really meant something. Yet it never opens our eyes that the word "peace" scares both the Israelis & the Palestinians to death. Until that changes nothing else will.
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Post by one of those jerks » January 13th, 2009, 11:22 am

.



So Israel says they can't talk to Hamas because it would be a sign of weakness.

Sorry General Dayan you are wrong I guess.
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Post by mtmynd » January 14th, 2009, 12:06 am

A disturbing scenario you paint, el mingo. I read this as : No hopes will ever be realized between the Muslim and the Jew for the shadow of death will follow both as long as the two exist.

I find it ironic that -

"The Israeli Rabin died for shaking hands with Arafat. Shot by one of his own. In cold blood. The Egyptian president Anwar Sadat was assassinated by his own, also in cold blood, for making peace with Israel. How many Palestinians do you think have met death at the hands of other Palestinians because they dared to voice a hope of peace with Israel for themselves & their children?"

... but yet the deaths continue no matter the hope or peace. Is it easier to accept the fact that a Jew killed a Palestinian rather than a Palestinian killing a Palestinian? Maybe that way the hatred can continue... a sort of deranged logic that justifies war.

It could certainly be argued the entire Middle East is a cancerous blight on the face of Gaia masked by the idea it's a Holy Land.
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Post by the mingo » January 14th, 2009, 1:09 pm

[quote="mtmynd"]A disturbing scenario you paint, el mingo. I read this as : No hopes will ever be realized between the Muslim and the Jew for the shadow of death will follow both as long as the two exist.

That is the situation as it stands today, mt. Hatred & fear are the motivating policies of both Israeli & Palestinian. Not peace. Both groups can have peace tomorrow if they want it. They could have had peace anytime over the last 80 years if that is what either group had ever had in view. I speak of peace as peace - not peace "with terms". Peace "with terms" is war by another name or surrender. In this case neither side can surrender for that means a future of annihilation by degree. This is not a scenario I paint, mt, disturbing or not. It is what I have come to understand by acquainting myself, by listening & reading, with the history of what can be seen today on the ground in Israel. I did this because of a response judioz gave to a post awhile back here on this site. The poster she responded to had likened the conflict to the Hatfields & McCoys - she said; "This is NOT the Hatfields & McCoys". She, under rocket fire 24/7 from Gaza wrote that statement with such certainty & finality that I realized that my knowledge of this conflict, which has been going on all my life & began before I was born, was ten thousand times smaller than my ignorance. I use the terms "Israeli" & "Palestinian" instead of "Jew" & "Muslim" because religion is in the mix here, certainly, but it is not "cause" but "in service of". Anyways...the reason I mentioned Palestinian killing Palestinian & Israeli killing Israeli over a wish or a desire for peace was to show the depth to which this conflict goes for the combatants and not for which incident is righteous and which is evil. I'm sorry I failed to be clear on that, mt. As for justifying war, would I be going too far to say that both you & I know that war has nothing to do with justification, except in the mind of the propagandist? That war is not a moralistic issue? That war, as everything else, is part of our true nature, is part of the One, and if the One is not the many what are three birds on a wire? Sorry about the emoticon that follows but the One could not resist the temptation :mrgreen:
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Post by stilltrucking » January 14th, 2009, 1:21 pm

I don't know why I expect more from Jews Cecil.

Must be my racism.

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Post by mtmynd » January 14th, 2009, 6:11 pm

War. Last night I heard someone on the tube say war is for political gain... there is no other reason. I'm still digesting that. Years ago I heard war is for breaking things and killing people... but for political gain..? From a historical viewpoint it does seem correct to say all this 'breaking things and killing people' is for political gain. But I always question... so my next question would be : "Who is to gain what in this seemingly perpetual battle between the Palestinians and the Israelis?" It's been said that Hamas has a charter and in this charter they, Hamas, want to eliminate the state of Israel. That is an extremely short-sided demand. Nobody can expect a young nation of historically persecuted people to up and leave the area... especially as it was written in their holy books that God gave them this land.

I find it difficult to grasp the concept of any God(s) telling a group of people that one area of land is all theirs and anyone that has ever lived on that land before has no further title to it whatsoever. But then again, I am not attached to many of the stories within the Bible, thus my skepticism. What I believe and what the Jewish/Christian/Muslim communities believe are about opposing as a belief system can be.

El Mingo, I am about filled up to here with all the words, the attacks, the retaliations, the hatred, the bullshit in general that has been written about, argued about, pulled apart and analyzed at depth and still nobody has the power to stop this war... only to pause it. It makes little matter to me who started this or when this really began.. it can go back thousands of years if one wants to trace the origins, but I feel we are all here in 2009 and our collective world is much, much smaller than it ever was. We are living in a world society where many, many countries are included in the economics of the world. I've given many hours of thought to the Muslims and their leaders. It seems to me from this side of the argument that the adherents of Islam, as faithful and loving towards their god as most any religion, has stalled on the tracks of progress in their ability to question their own religion. Now I'm not painting with a large brush here an overall condemnation of every Muslim, but I am speaking for the loud, vociferous fundmentalists that insist on defending their God, Allah.

Allah, God, Dios... no matter the name, the concept is Absolute and never, ever needs or requests or even demands defending. This One Spirit is what is and has ever been. To think one religion or even one theocracy feels they have a mission to defend this spirit is absolutely false... nobody, nothing, nowhere need defend a spirit of spirits, for lack of a better name right now. The only thing these people feel they need to defend is the laws and the rigidity of belief that Islam (and any other strict adherence to a religion) demands on their followers under the death of Allah. Foolishness. But I'm not here to write about that any further than I have...

The battle between the Palestinians and the Israelis is between the Palestinians and the Israelis. Neither of them need or should ask for assistance from anyone else in regards to this war. They seem to know who their enemy is and they have been aware of it for far longer than 60 years. Any other country that gets involved in this on going war is wasting their time, money and energy. The war between them will evidently go on far longer than my life and anyone calling themselves Palestinian or Israeli. These two 'have been at it' long enough to know what they are doing. Why get involved?

btw: It was a poem I had written that had the 'Hatfield and McCoys' reference. I am sorry that bothered Judih to the point it did. But I explained that reference 'til I'm pretty much exhausted, as I am with all the words I have written on the ongoing war.

Oddly, I don't think I've written but 100 words or so on the Chinese takeover of Tibet... and an estimated one million Tibetans have already lost their peaceful lives. I didn't know that until I recently read the facts. The occupation began one year after the establishment of Israel in 1948. But who gets the most press year after year after year? It saddens me.

thanks for the reply, el mingo... peace unto you, amigo.

... and truck, I hope you read the above I just finished with. This war is between something much larger than common sense or compassion. It has nothing to do with you or us, unless we make our business. I can't do that. The stress is not worth it for me.

[enough]
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Post by stilltrucking » January 14th, 2009, 7:02 pm

I got to go Cecil I read it quickly
I think more countries than just Palestine and Israel are involved.

Those F-16's come from the USA
and the rockets are from Iran.
And Egypt is complicit in it too.

That is just for starters.

I re read it more closely later.

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Post by silent woman » January 16th, 2009, 4:03 pm

I still have not read it

carefully

but you stopped me when you said it is only between the Jews and Arabs.


Oh boy

The English, French, Persians, Germans and now us got out bloody fingerprints all over than war.


sinecerely
still trucking
et al.

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Post by mtmynd » January 16th, 2009, 5:38 pm

truck : "The English, French, Persians, Germans and now us got out bloody fingerprints all over than war."

That's a big problem... nosing around where they don't belong.

The way I see (today) is this has been going on longer than any of us have been walking this earth. It's always between the two whenever there's warring, i.e. one side or the other reacts to the opposing sides instigations. All these other countries...? they pick sides and join in. It hasn't done a damn bit of good in the long run. I believe that either side would rather deal with this age-old problem themselves and should go it alone. Why not?

((maybe tomorrow i'll have another idea... probably so, you reckon?))
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Post by one of those jerks » January 16th, 2009, 6:09 pm

Meanwhile

we are in it up to our eyebrows

and if we don't rise above it we will drown in our own shit.
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Post by mtmynd » January 16th, 2009, 7:00 pm

and when we drown there's no second chance... no shit.
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Post by stilltrucking » January 16th, 2009, 8:08 pm

If you say so Cecil.


I don't know what happens after death.


I was just thinking about a song I like

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/dh3bleXWaCk&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/dh3bleXWaCk&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

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Post by stilltrucking » January 16th, 2009, 10:33 pm

No Shit

Be something if their were commodes in the after life.

Probably be pay toilette s

Meanwhile about three billion or maybe it is ony 2.4 billion people, are shiting on the ground.

In India they have untouchables to clean it up

They are so unclean that people do not want their shadows to touch them.

I have an excremental vision what more can I say.

"We are born between feces and urine"

And Palestinians are born into a world of shit.

Same for the people of Darfur.

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Post by constantine » January 17th, 2009, 8:59 pm

i had that album. cool!

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