New Scientific Theory on Black Holes

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Barry
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Post by Barry » September 28th, 2009, 3:18 pm

I don't agree that science went fundamentally wrong somewhere along the line, but I do appreciate any and all input in the discussion of these issues as it's helpful to kick around ideas in arriving at an answer.
I fundamentally agree. Perhaps "fundamentally wrong" was a poor choice of words. I was thinking of the concept of "the ether," a pre-Einsteinian-physics conception of the universe which has since been proved fundamentally in error. I think, like those physicists before Einstein, we've missed something somewhere along the line, misconceptualized something, and that this fundamental misconception, like that of "the ether," blocks our full, further understanding of what actually is. In time, of course, this conception or misconception will change, as new data comes in, ideas kicked around and all that. :)

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Post by roxybeast » September 28th, 2009, 7:01 pm

Yes, thinking you know something already often clouds your view of what is possible ... of course, those of us, like me, without a mind, need not worry about being so close minded :),

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Post by mtmynd » September 28th, 2009, 8:10 pm

Hi, Roxy... interesting thread you've started. You stated: "... I do appreciate any and all input in the discussion of these issues as it's helpful to kick around ideas in arriving at an answer."

So let me begin from your own opening here -
I'm going to pose a new scientific thought regarding black holes. I just don't buy the current notion that they are the end all to end all. That everything gets sucked in and destroyed never to reappear. The destruction of matter in the most final sense.

That's just nonsense.
Perhaps not exactly germane to the subject at hand, but I do feel it's important to know that any scientific theories must have a semblance of truth to them, i.e. a scientist who may postulate this theory of yours to his/her colleagues must have a conclusion to the theory. Leaving any theory open-ended is not much of a theory, per se, but more of an idea or even story of sorts. When science says blah, blah, blah... it is the general agreement of the community of scientists that propose the theory.

When 'they' postulate that everything gets sucked in and destroyed within the black hole, that is simply there is no evidence beyond this theory presently. I'm sure there are at least a handful of scientists that have some notion of what you've brought forth, but without that all-important word, 'evidence', there is no science.

But taking this one step further... all science begins with an idea... usually with an idea that has at least a fair amount of credibility to it. Once the idea is discussed with some like-minded cohorts, the idea becomes a test that seeks an answer.

If I'm understanding you correctly, Roxy, you are saying that when light, matter and the energy they produce enter into a black hole there is a transformation into invisible wave (tiny wave particles) which go out into the vastness of space to join other wave particles which is the reason for the expansion of the universe..?

You visualize the infinite space that contains all matter as a sea of these wave particles is what I'm understanding. I like that. But I do have a problem with 'seeing' this cycle of light,matter and energy (LME) being 'reduced' to wave particles. If this is indeed what is occurring, wouldn't these wave particles eventually be the building blocks of all LME to resume to process which you postulate?

All matter had to have come from some other matter in some point in time, wouldn't it? Perhaps not immediately in our concept, but as the black hole consumes this LME and 'digests' it (them) it would return this same array of building blocks, even in minute, tiny wave particles, back into the universe.

If all LME is built around these wave particles, as I believe you are suggesting, then when they enter into a black hole and are returned into the same space from which it came, the process would seem to me to be self-creative and would not allow for expansion any further than what we currently know.

Your theory seems to suggest to me that LME is destroyed only to return as wave particles that add to the 'eternal sea' of dark space in an expansion that may or may not go on indefinitely. But how does 'new' LME come about if not from the old recycled LME, to put it simply?

Thx, roxy... I hope I made myself clear. :)
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Post by roxybeast » September 29th, 2009, 12:18 am

yes, mtmynd ... and the answer may be ...

if I understood your question correctly.

First, even Prof. Hawking now disagrees with his earlier theory that black holes simply consume and destroy everything they contact. (I posted his latest theory in an earlier post) ... Second, scientists have now firmly established that the universe is expanding, there is a black hole at the center of virtually every galaxy, and that every galaxy is expanding at rates which exceed the mere effects of gravity & momentum, that there is no center to the universe, and that dark matter & dark energy exist! (See my subsequent posts & videos).

Something is fueling this expansion and my theory provides the answer.

Your question assumes that dark matter or dark energy are capable of being used to create or transforming back into light matter or light energy ... perhaps they cannot.

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Post by mtmynd » September 29th, 2009, 7:37 am

Your question assumes that dark matter or dark energy are capable of being used to create or transforming back into light matter or light energy ... perhaps they cannot.
Not so much 'assumes' but rather 'presumes' at this conjecture in the discussion.

If we agree that all LME have derived from something other than a beatific god-like presence, can we presume that these tiny waves you speak of, whose own origins sprung from the belly of a black hole, be the same building blocks that give matter it's identity?

I cannot get around the idea that all matter is transformed into these tiny wave particles emanating from all black holes are the reason for the assumed expansion of the universe. This idea leaves out the question "from where does the matter that enters the black hole originate?"

I think we can agree that infinite space, that which suspends all matter within it, is all part and parcel of ultimately one process which could very well include this hypothesis you have brought up for discussion. What say ye, Roxy?
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Post by roxybeast » September 30th, 2009, 3:15 am

MTMYND ... I don't think you have to answer the first question, where did all light, matter & energy in the universe originally come from ... to answer the question of what happens to it when it enters a black hole.

There isn't any scientist alive that can definitively answer the first question.

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Post by mtmynd » September 30th, 2009, 2:23 pm

I don't think you have to answer the first question, where did all light, matter & energy in the universe originally come from ...
True, but I do believe they are all connected... what goes in must come out, so to speak... as above so below, etc, etc...

IMHO it's all part of the whole. If your theory holds any truth then what is emitted from the black hole after the 'transformation', these wave particles (being matter themselves despite their size) would eventually be the basic building blocks of all matter within the universe, ourselves included.
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Post by roxybeast » September 30th, 2009, 7:07 pm

mtmynd ...

I have considered that possibility ... but it's not necessarily the case, nor a necessary conclusion flowing from my theory ... like I said, perhaps once converted to dark energy, these elemental wave particles become inert. Perhaps permanently inert.

Dark matter, on the other hand, may result from incomplete transformation and might then be more easily reconverted back to LME. My feeling here is strong that the transformation of dark matter, as opposed to dark energy, is fundamentally incomplete. Like the black hole did not finish doing a complete job of transformation on this material. Thus, it's possible that dark matter contains some characteristics of both dark energy and LME, i.e. both sides of the equation, and perhaps even in varying degrees. Containing enough characteristics of the dark energy to appear inert, but retaining enough characteristics from the LME to have mass.

If dark energy is ever subject to retransformation, I suspect that the amount of heat and energy necessary to make that occur would be astronomical ... perhaps like that involved in the creation of a new star. Perhaps bigger. Perhaps big-bang-ier.

And of course, there is the question of what is the upper limit of heat, which has still not been answered. Is there an "absolute zero" on the heat side of the scale, like there is on the cold side of the scale? ...
Last edited by roxybeast on September 30th, 2009, 8:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Post by mtmynd » September 30th, 2009, 7:39 pm

... perhaps once converted to dark energy, these elemental wave particles become inert.
always a possibility, this is true. however, here on earth, anyway, nature doesn't waste anything, being the original recycler, it would be incongruous for nature to behave otherwise, i.e. take in thru black holes and emit something inert... unless, of course, this state of inertness was temporal.
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Post by roxybeast » September 30th, 2009, 8:06 pm

Mtmynd ...

Yes, but here on earth, we have a life sustaining atmosphere, gravity, and a general lack of "absolute zero" cold ... and thank god for that!!! :)





... (the very last phrase was a little science joke if you noticed!)

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Post by roxybeast » October 1st, 2009, 6:03 am

Here's a really, really interesting documentary on the birth & death of stars ... from neutron stars, to black holes, to white dwarves, to red giants, to blue jigglers, to supernovi, to brown dwarves ... and every kind of star in between! ... (what, no giant galactic death star! :) )

http://www.hulu.com/watch/95019/the-uni ... -of-a-star

New scientific discoveries which may help shed some further light on our discussion.

Giving new meaning to the phrase "we are stardust!"

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Post by roxybeast » October 28th, 2009, 9:54 pm

A collection of 7 videos about black holes on hulu.com ...
http://www.hulu.com/collections/212

The most dangerous places in the universe, including black holes & supernovas ...
discussing different types/classes of black holes & death by black hole ...
http://www.hulu.com/watch/95022/the-uni ... s-p1-so-i0

Are we alone in the universe? The search for E.T. and nano-immortality ...
http://www.hulu.com/watch/95021/the-uni ... s-p1-so-i0

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Post by roxybeast » January 6th, 2010, 2:01 am

UC Berkeley Lecture on Dark Matter & Dark Energy ... very interesting:

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Post by roxybeast » January 6th, 2010, 4:19 am

More from UC Berkeley on current theories on dark energy ...

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Post by roxybeast » January 6th, 2010, 4:25 am

More from UC Berkeley ...

The Evolving Search for the Nature of Dark Energy
Part 1, Supernovae as Standard Candles
http://newscenter.lbl.gov/feature-stori ... rk-energy/

The Evolving Search for the Nature of Dark Energy
Part 2 - Baryon Acoustic Oscillation: A Very Large Standard Ruler
http://newscenter.lbl.gov/feature-stori ... -search-2/

The Evolving Search for the Nature of Dark Energy
Part 3 - Weak Gravitational Lensing: Using the Curvature of Space to Probe the Distant Universe
http://newscenter.lbl.gov/feature-stori ... -search-3/


Additional information:

How dark energy was discovered is discussed in http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Arc ... ergy1.html (part 1); http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Arc ... ergy2.html (part 2); and http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Arc ... nergy.html (part 3).

How supernovae are used to measure dark energy is discussed in detail in http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Arc ... novae.html (part 1); http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Arc ... vae-2.html (part 2); and http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Arc ... e-pt3.html (part 3).

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