What Would Victory Look Like in Afghanistan?

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What Would Victory Look Like in Afghanistan?

Post by Steve Plonk » May 16th, 2010, 7:02 pm

If we need to "win" this Afghan War, we need to get with the program and "win" it. What would a "victory" look like? Part of it might look like
the Taliban and Al Quaeda laying down their arms and becoming a part of the political process. It would help if all sides were paid reparations like
folks used to do following World War Two. First, they should pay us reparations. Then our reparations would follow. In addition, the parties should stop growing poppies and dealing dope. We are already trying to do something to help with the latter. We have got some agricultural people on the ground helping them grow other good cash crops.

Al Quaeda, and company, have plenty of money and they could donate much of it to help rebuild New York City & pay for the renovations of the Pentagon, and payments to the victims families. Taliban is not as rich, but they need to do their part by becoming part of the Afghan political process. What do you think?

Non Sum

Post by Non Sum » May 17th, 2010, 9:47 am

Hi
Steve: What do you think?

NS: I think you have a very rich fantasy life, Steve.

Steve: the Taliban and Al Quaeda laying down their arms and becoming a part of the political process.

NS: Why would they do that, when all they have to do is wait for the infidel invaders to leave? Why would they ‘want’ to do that when they know themselves to be the party of God, and all alternative parties are clearly of Satan? Compromise, cooperate, and work with Satan??

S: It would help if all sides were paid reparations like
folks used to do following World War Two.

NS: They had reparations following WWI too. They were a major factor in creating WWII.

S: First, they should pay us reparations.

NS: Maybe, enclose the check in a nice Hallmark card, saying: “We are so sorry for any inconvenience and expense that invading our non-combatant country, and killing hundreds of thousands of civilian men, women, and children, may have caused you. Best wishes, in hopes that we may one day return your kindness in kind.
With love, Taliban”

S: Then our reparations would follow.

NS: Our card saying: “Oops, so sorry about our conquest of your peaceful nation, and all them dead folks. I guess George II, and Barak, got overly excited. Here’s so cash to make it all better.
Always loving, Pentagon”

S: In addition, the parties should stop growing poppies and dealing dope.

NS: What a great idea! Wonder why the Afghanies never thought of giving up their only major source of foreign exchange.

S: We have got some agricultural people on the ground helping them grow other good cash crops.

NS: Afghan farmer to agronomist: “Golly, you mean I can get a whole $2.00 for a bushel of beans that only cost me $1.50 TO $5.00 to grow, instead of several thousand for a native plant !! Whoopie.’

Steve, I really don’t believe you are trying to put yourself into the position, and mind set, of those who are opposing our imperialism. This lack of ability to put one’s self in the shoes of another is endemic in the American consciousness. That is why so many here are, and will continue to be, scratching their heads wondering why so many are so hateful of the fine American people we know ourselves to be.

Try to imagine circumstances as reversed, and you will gain a better perspective.
NS (North’s South)

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Post by Steve Plonk » May 17th, 2010, 10:24 am

Non Sum, seems like you feel that some of my solutions were fantasy.
So are some of yours. Afghanistan will not be filled with dead people.
The Taliban, in some areas, have already accepted a political solution and laid down their arms.

Al-Quaida is a difficult nut to crack, but they're led by a nut who is crazy like a fox so this thing could take quite some time. We are in it for the long haul and will try to get a political solution that is practical for everyone. We were directly attacked by Osama's organization and have
more at stake. I really do think that reparations are feasible. It has worked before with the British in Afghanistan. This time around we will help the Afghans work with a more viable economy...Not for the short term but for the long term.

One good cash crop the Afghans could grow would be hemp--the kind of hemp used to make paper, rope, and fiber. It is grown in Canada and makes growers quite a bit of money and was grown in Kentucky recently. It is a versatile crop and takes less water to grow than poppies...

Besides naysaying, what are some of your ideas?

Non Sum

Post by Non Sum » May 17th, 2010, 2:01 pm

Steve: seems like you feel that some of my solutions were fantasy.
So are some of yours. Afghanistan will not be filled with dead people.

NS: I don’t recall offering any solutions, nor predicting that A. would be “filled with dead people.” Could you show me my quote to that effect?

S: The Taliban, in some areas, have already accepted a political solution and laid down their arms.

NS: The Continental Army in some areas laid down their arms and returned to their farms during the American revolution. Should the British have taken encouragement from that? The Taliban have been fighting for a couple of generations, with sympathizers & mercenaries coming and going all along. They won’t all just shrug and go away, not anymore than did the NVA in Nam or G. Washington in the colonies.

S: We were directly attacked by Osama's organization

NS: That is exactly right! :)
But, please do notice that we were Not attacked by the people or government of Afghanistan. So, why did we invade that nation and depose its government in preference of one of our own? Yes, the A. government refused to cooperate in delivering over Al Quaida suspects who may have been within its sovereignty. We refused to deliver the Shah to Iran. Should the Iranians have invaded us for that? The British, the French, and many others have refused to deliver suspects over to us in the past. Why didn’t we invade them too?

S: One good cash crop the Afghans could grow would be hemp--the kind of hemp used to make paper, rope, and fiber.

NS: Rope, etc., will never come close to opium in ROI (return on investment). Hemp market is miniscule and has many substitutes. Profit margins disappear with long distance bulk shipping. That may work for Canada shipping to a near by enormous US market, but how does A. compete with no coast, and few roads and rails?

What is wrong with the lucrative cash crop of opium? There is a large medical demand alone for its products, and not all nations are so foolish as to think that a prohibition of a high demand product can be effective simply by limiting its sources. Drugs do not harm people, and societies, anywhere as much as do oppressive laws that make drugs worth their weight in gold.

S: Besides naysaying, what are some of your ideas?

NS: To never invade one’s neighbors, no matter how much you may not like them. To allow all peoples of the earth to self-determination: of their preferred form of government (in home or nation), and of their preferred style of life (so long as it does not directly harm another).

The US is the villain in these wars. We should admit that George the 2nd, and Barak the 1st, were criminally wrong in pursuing both wars, and leave the people of Iraq & Afghanistan to their own affairs. The name for doing so is called,
'Peace,' NS

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Post by Steve Plonk » May 17th, 2010, 6:02 pm

"NS: Our card saying: “Oops, so sorry about our conquest of your peaceful nation, and all them dead folks. I guess George II, and Barak, got overly excited. Here’s so cash to make it all better.
Always loving, Pentagon”

NS, I am not on the high school debate team, but I believe you DID say that, look at your own quotes above. No, our aim certainly is not to kill off all Afghans. I am all for a political solution. That is up to the Dept. of State and so on.

In addition, stop mixing Afghanistan up with Iraq. They are dissimilar and were fought for entirely different reasons. I am sticking with discussing the Afghan War. Moreover, we attacked the Taliban because they harbored the Al-Quaida terrorists. The Taliban is hardly in league with the continental army during the revolutionary war. It was a different fight entirely and has no bearing on this discussion.

I saw your lampoon of George II (sic) and Obama being in the same boat. I believe we need to get past the bickering and realize that the
Afghan War will not be solved to everyone's satisfaction. The place is called "the Graveyard of Empires". Our country is not an empire like the British Empire or the Soviet Empire. We are simply fighting the good fight, and not looking to add territory. Even Pakistan is beginning to cooperate with the U. N. forces.

At one time, the British had the right idea to build railroads and so on and other infrastructure. We are going to take it a step further and work on redirecting the Afghan agricultural community. Make fun, if you will, but it is working in some provinces. The United Nations is also helping them. There is a team from the University of Tennessee Agricultural School which is working with the army to redirect the farmers to more appropriate cash crops. Growing opium poppies must be carefully regulated and mostly be replaced by hemp and crops listed below as well as other farming... Lentils, chick peas, corn, wheat, and soybeans can also be grown in Afghanistan. The Afghans have had trouble feeding all their people in the past and new crops would help them feed their citizens and become more self-sufficient.

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Post by stilltrucking » May 17th, 2010, 6:52 pm

We know what victory looked like in Afghanistan. We saw it in 2002 and we blew it. We are an empire and we are fighting a bad fight.

Non Sum

Post by Non Sum » May 17th, 2010, 8:52 pm

Steve: I am not on the high school debate team, but I believe you DID say that (“Afghanistan will be filled with dead people.”)

NS: I looked, and I never said it. You find it, and I will apologize profusely. You don’t find it, and you should apologize. It’s Not an acceptable tactic even in H.S. debate to misquote another.

S: The Taliban is hardly in league with the continental army during the revolutionary war. It was a different fight entirely and has no bearing on this discussion.

NS: Is this an attempt at humor, Steve? Or, are you really that poor at reading comprehension? Please, reread my last, but waaay more slowly next time. You really blew it, dude.

S: Moreover, we attacked the Taliban because they harbored the Al-Quaida terrorists.

NS: During your reread, please note that I mentioned this questionable justification. Also note that I asked you a couple questions regarding the double standard used in its employment. Please answer them as best you can.

S: We are simply fighting the good fight, and not looking to add territory.

NS: Empires need not be restricted to territorial aims. Our empire is constantly at work to preserve and extend its multi-fronted ‘hegemony.’

S: At one time, the British had the right idea to build railroads and so on and other infrastructure.

NS: Surely a nation of selfless saints (irony alert!).
The Romans built roads for the same purpose, i.e. to mover troops, booty, and troop supplies.

S: Make fun, if you will, but it is working in some provinces.

NS: Sure, burn a farmer’s crops until he sees the wisdom of growing what you don’t burn (until you leave, and take your matches with you).

S: Growing opium poppies must be carefully regulated and mostly be replaced

NS: Why “must” it? Is “must” grow this and not that an example of ‘free and democratic’?

Hi
ST: We are an empire and we are fighting a bad fight.

NS: Succinctly stated, and too true!

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Post by stilltrucking » May 17th, 2010, 10:11 pm

Sorry Steve. You sound naive if you think Pakistan is our "friend"
Like I was saying if you are curious about what victory should have looked like get in Mr. Peadody's wayback machine.

The Taliban were defeated in 2002. BUT Instead of working to rebuild the country we pulled our assets out and sent them to Iraq for what ever reasons. We abandoned the people of Afghanistan. We never delivered on our promises to them. Nothing but graft by Bush civilian appointes who ripped off the aid.

What you don't mention is the corruption. Our's and the Afghanistan government's corruption. The president of Afghanistan's brother is the biggest drug lord in the country

. My heart aches for the women of Afghanistan, they were starting to make real progress before we abandoned them. I hope you are right about everything you said and I hope I am wrong.
I think we are screwed and I don't know what to do. Fortunately Obama is a better man than me. I hope he does know what to do.


There was a women (user name TIlly) posting here. who was working for an NGO in Afghanistan you might want to check her posts out they are very interesting posts. She mentions the corruption..
Here is one of Tilly's posts about Afghanistan:
from 2005, nothing has changed it has only got worse.
Tilly



Location: Kabul, Afghanistan
Occupation: International Development
Interests: Travel, Tai Chi/Chi Gong, music, poetry, treking, backpacking


http://www.studioeight.tv/phpbb/viewtop ... sc&start=0

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Post by Steve Plonk » May 18th, 2010, 11:31 am

Still Trucking, just because Pakistan is cooperating with the U. N. doesn't mean the country is America's "friend" as you put it. Yes, it is in Pakistan's own interest to quell the fighting by terrorists in their country. Their own government has been a target. At the moment, we have a mutual beneficial relationship.

A recent deadly suicide carbomb in Kabul illustrates what we are up
against and this is the reason we need to gain trust of most of the
Afghan people. If either of you have read my poem,"War of the Drones",
also a topic in this standing column, you will realize that I sympathize
with the efforts to try not to hit civilians. I don't think the Taliban cares one way or the other except to achieve what they and the Al-Quaida want which is "holy war". The enemy thinks they are fighting the good fight to the Nth degree. No one can predict the outcome of this war, at the moment; however if we don't send in more troops and material we surely
will lose this fight. When Bill Moyers recently spoke with President Obama on PBS, the president tried to outline our objectives.

We cannot change the culture of male supremacy in Afghanistan, and places like that, overnight. Women are oppressed by the muslims and continue to be. We have tried to show by example that our women have
more equal rights in the West. We are making progress, but that is another topic...More girls are going to school now, than were before...

I think our fight here will be more like Korea and that we will be there for years. We have agreed not to abandon Afghanistan like we did after the Russians lost to the Mujahedeen. The Mujahedeen morphed into the Taliban and fired our grenade launchers right back at us.

Yes, in 2001-2 we had Osama Bin-Laden cornered in Tora Bora (sic) and let him escape because we allowed a mosly warlord force to try to root him out. We should have thrown everything at him when we had him.
In addition, I agree that we used precious resources in Iraq when we could have used them in Afghanistan. This is all history now. Our focus should be to win this thing. A political solution will be needed.

I am quite aware that the Afghan president's own brother is a reputed drug lord. We have to address the continuing drug dealing problems in that part of the world. I continue to hope for a positive solution to this problem. Yes, Non Sum, one way is to burn off the fields. That type thing is done the world over.

I read part of "Tilly's" post from 2005. That was then and this is now, five years later. Hopefully, some of the problems will iron themselves out.
Moreover, we are not just throwing money at it, we are trying to help with the economy. I wish Obama and his administration all the success in the world. Human rights are important, too. I don't think we have lost sight of that fact. So we need a political, economic, and social victory in Afghanistan and, kind folks & gentle people, that will take many years.

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Post by Lightning Rod » May 18th, 2010, 5:54 pm

Steve, it's good to see that you are reaching out by publishing a column on Studio Eight. Voices are as important as votes.

As to this topic and your treatment of it, I tend to agree with Non Sum that your solutions are largely wishful thinking and not likely to occur. I'm not against wishful thinking but it helps to cooperate with human nature in our solutions. Here is my proposal:

http://studioeight.tv/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=17624

best wishes for your column
"These words don't make me a poet, these Eyes make me a poet."

The Poet's Eye

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Post by Steve Plonk » May 18th, 2010, 7:24 pm

Lightning Rod, thanks for the best wishes...I like a couple of your points in your column. The idea of buying the opium and selling it to legitimate medical markets above the price the Taliban would pay would be great!
I think the British did something like that and it worked for a time...

The other idea I really liked was making small loans available to Afghans. I think that is a great idea. There could be a community bank system started there. (There are places around here where we could also use this idea!)

Immediate withdrawal doesn't seem feasible, given the situation we are presently in. I think we'll be there in an advisor capacity even after troops leave and for a longer period of time than in Iraq. Afghanistan, terrorists groups aside, is not a rich country. They do have a good gem industry which we could help bolster, too. The Al-Quaida terrorists are well financed and we soon may be able to freeze more assets, like we did for a while in Iran. We could also go after the drug warlords...

Identifying leaders is problem, though. Cells don't usually surface unless provoked. That is why we are using the drones, since Pakistan will not officially allow boots on the ground. Pakistan is finally coming around to flush out some of the bandits and terrorists. I think the drones have worked but I am upset by how much collateral damage they cause... Like I said in my poem: "War of the Drones". Also see it, if you scroll farther down. At this point in time, trying to see what victory will look like is just a hypothetical. But, I thought I'd give it a try...so I did.

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Post by stilltrucking » May 18th, 2010, 9:03 pm

I said we won a military victory but did not follow up on our promises. I did not say anything about Osama Bin Laden.

Yes that was than this is now. And now is worse then then.



Oh well. I am sure it will all work out for the best in the end.

It has to. It always does. I am an optimist. I believe we are the good guys fighting the good fight. The USA is not an empire in denial. Obama can kill them better.

done

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Post by Steve Plonk » May 18th, 2010, 11:32 pm

Still Trucking, I, too, hope for the U. N. forces to win the final victory. I have a hard time imagining what a defeat would look like. I also am optimistic...
Obama has the guts to see this thing through. Much of the country is supporting his decision. I don't think I am naive. I think that I am trying to anticipate something good happening over there. As the Brits say:
"Chin up, chest out, and spit the spot." Onward!

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Post by stilltrucking » May 19th, 2010, 5:37 am

I have lost faith in "final victory"
I imagine that victory in Afghanistan will look a lot like Vietnam.
We are backing another Diem.

In my way heretical way I pray
For Obama . I can't imagine a better man to lead us at this point in time.
TO lose one's faith surpasses
The loss of an estate,
Because estates can be
Replenished, -- faith cannot.

Inherited with life,
Belief but once can be;
Annihilate a single clause,
And Being's beggary.
E. Dickinson

You are fighting the good fight Steve. Not sure where that comes from I mean "the good fight" from the KJV I think.
Keep the faith.

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Post by Doreen Peri » May 19th, 2010, 8:30 am

What's the war for?

What's the purpose of it?

Who's the enemy?

The government of Afghanistan didn't attack us on 911.

The people of Afghanistan didn't attack us on 911.

I don't understand any of it.

Seems to me the purpose of the war is to secure real estate for the pipeline they're building.

Oil.

Who are we fighting? The Taliban? Are they the enemy?

Dead people. For nothing. I hate war. It's stupid, archaic, a huge waste of energy and lives.

There's no way to "win" a war.

Period.

No wars can be "won".
Last edited by Doreen Peri on May 19th, 2010, 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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