What Would Victory Look Like in Afghanistan?

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Doreen Peri
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Post by Doreen Peri » May 19th, 2010, 8:30 am

What's the war for?

What's the purpose of it?

Who's the enemy?

The government of Afghanistan didn't attack us on 911.

I don't understand any of it.

Seems to me the purpose of the war is to secure real estate for the pipeline they're building.

Oil.

Who are we fighting? The Taliban? Are they the enemy?

Dead people. For nothing. I hate war. It's stupid, archaic, a huge waste of energy and lives.

There's no way to "win" a war.

Period.

No wars can be "won".

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Post by stilltrucking » May 19th, 2010, 9:33 am

That pipeline story is mnaz's theory too. I don't know. Maybe so.
I see Vietnam all over a Déjà vu
"What are we fighting for, I don't give a dam. Next stop Afghanistan"

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Post by Steve Plonk » May 19th, 2010, 10:16 am

Doreen, the Al-Quaida was harbored by the Taliban government of Afghanistan.
We were directly attacked by the Al-Quaida. Therefore, we attacked the government of Afghanistan at the time. We are continuing to fight there.

The Taliban had a venal and oppressive regime which harbored bandits,
world-wide criminals, like Osama Bin-Laden, and encouraged drug dealing and warlord corruption. Read the latest justification by President Obama on a recent Bill Moyers PBS show transcript and it will become clearer.

In my opinion, no war, since World War 2, has been more justifiable
than the one we are fighting in Afghanistan. (However, war is never is
justifiable if one is a pacifist. I am a nuclear pacifist, but not a general war pacifist.)

Also see my poem "War of the Drones" on this same standing forum. I am distressed at the collateral damage the drones are causing, to repeat, but we have to root out the Al-Quaida, in Aghanistan, Pakistan, or whereever they may be. The enemy is for "holy war" and are a threat to western civilization. Taliban Muslim culture is oppressive to women's rights and there are "honor killings" and rapes to keep the muslim women under control.

We are helping with reparations in Afghanistan for those innocents who were hit by bombs, etc. by mistake. In addition, we are helping with the agriculture, economy, and social services of Afghanistan. We are also helping Pakistan deal with their equivalent of the Al-Quaida with military aid. Precious resources were squandered in the pre-emptive war in Iraq
which could've been used in Afghanistan. I have a nephew in Afghanistan and I believe he is doing the right thing fighting the Taliban and Al-Quaida there. I do think there is a possibility for a political solution if the various parties will disarm and sit down at the peace table.

There is no way we are going to unilaterally and immediately withdraw from Afghanistan at the present time. There is simply too much at stake.
This fact was brought out in our recent election for president.
Afghanistan has had a history of thuggery and banditry for hundreds of years. If we allow it to become like Somalia, we will be sorry. We will
need to stay there in an advisory capacity for years after the troops leave.
Unlike Iraq, we have more United Nations and NATO help in Afghanistan.

Those are the facts as I see them at the moment. It is wonderful that there is dialog about this. It is quite evident that I am not an expert in foreign policy. But I have made it a hobby these past few years and follow international events in both intrigue and in environmental problems.
I also continue to hope for the best in Afghanistan and throughout the muslim world in regard to human rights. :)

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Post by stilltrucking » May 19th, 2010, 10:46 am

If you check out mnaz's research on the pipeline you will find that the planing for the war on Afghanistan started over a year before the 9/11 attacks.

Also the Taliban were our creation. We funded them and armed them. But I guess you knew that.

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Post by Steve Plonk » May 19th, 2010, 12:33 pm

Still Trucking, it would be nice to hear from mnaz on my topic. I will try to check his comments out. Yes, we did arm the Taliban, which were morphed from the Mujahedeen in the 80s and early 90s. We also abandoned Afghanistan after the Russians lost the war there. finding out that the above was a tactical error. We should have continued to advise the Afghans. We are not making the same mistake twice.

Doreen, et al, perhaps there is a trans-asia oil & gas pipeline going through there. If that is true, then it is crucial to new Russian oil & natural gas sources. But the Russians are no longer participating in this venture.
It follows that we may be helping Russia by proxy in Afghanistan, like we helped the French by proxy in Vietnam. (We weren't a whole lot of help to the French, as you may know... ) Moreover, we have been observers in central asia for twenty years and have national oil & gas interests there. We can't allow Iran to control these interests. So, as usual, the underlying currents in Afghanistan point to opium and oil...These are two crucial products. But we all know that.

Clinton struck at Bin-Laden in the Sudan in the 90s and chased him to Afghanistan. Dubya was unsuccessful in stopping him and his organization from blowing up New York, the Pentagon, and several of our ships and embassies. Yes, there is, as usual, more than meets all but the discerning eyes. As a fellow blogger, and one of long life experience, so far, you are in the position to extend our collective memories of these events.

Still Trucking, I applaud your intelligence and research. Yes, we do have evidence of scenarios concocted by the Pentagon and "policy wonks" about various countries. There are probably scenarios being researched about Syria and Somalia as we speak. Then there is the bugaboo of North Korea and Iran which pinch deep into our national craw. That is why it is important to have a good national security apparatus and to anticipate events before they may or will happen. We make scenario preparations as usual. In the real world, life sometimes imitates art.

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Post by Steve Plonk » May 19th, 2010, 1:10 pm

Here is an addendum to my comment written above which explains the Trans-Afghan pipeline found in Wikipedia. I think it is currently correct.

"The new deal on the pipeline was signed on 27 December 2002 by the leaders of Turkmenistan, Afghanistan and Pakistan.[4] In 2005, the Asian Development Bank submitted the final version of a feasibility study designed by British company Penspen. ‘Since the US-led offensive that ousted the Taliban from power,’ reported Forbes in 2005, "the project has been revived and drawn strong US support" as it would allow the Central Asian republics to export energy to Western markets "without relying on Russian routes". Then-US Ambassador to Turkmenistan Ann Jacobsen noted that: "We are seriously looking at the project, and it is quite possible that American companies will join it."[5] Due to increasing instability, the project has essentially stalled; construction of the Turkmen part was supposed to start in 2006, but the overall feasibility is questionable since the southern part of the Afghan section runs through territory which continues to be under de facto Taliban control.[5]

On 24 April 2008, Pakistan, India and Afghanistan signed a framework agreement to buy natural gas from Turkmenistan.[6]
The 1,680 kilometres (1,040 mi) pipeline will run from the Dauletabad gas field to Afghanistan. From there TAPI will be constructed alongside the highway running from Herat to Kandahar, and then via Quetta and Multan in Pakistan. The final destination of the pipeline will be the Indian town of Fazilka, near the border between Pakistan and India.[7]"

As copied in part for educational purposes from: Wikipedia shared documents copyrighted 2010.

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Post by stilltrucking » May 19th, 2010, 4:45 pm

RE: Wickipedia


I have started taking whatever I read on wickipedia with a grain or two of salt. I am just saying.
Image
Exposed: guess who has been polishing their Wikipedia



A new website built by an American technology student has uncovered the lengths that companies apparently go to improve their public image by tweaking their entries on Wikipedia, the online encyclopaedia that - famously - “anyone can edit”.

The WikiScanner site, developed by Virgil Griffith, a researcher at the California Institute of Technology, reveals changes to the online encyclopaedia by linking edits back to the computers from which they emanate using each computer’s unique IP address.

Mr Griffith, 24, says he created the site "to create minor public relations disasters for companies and organisations I dislike" - a mission he may well have succeeded in.

Among those he alleges have been updating their entries are Wal-Mart, the world’s largest grocer, AstraZeneca, the drugs giant, Britain's Labour Party, the CIA and the Vatican.

In one example he gives, a computer linked to an IP address registered to the Dow Chemical company is seen to have deleted a passage on the Bhopal chemical disaster of 1984, which occurred at a plant operated by Union Carbide, now a wholly-owned Dow subsidiary.

the rest of the article can be read at this website.

Exposed: guess who has been polishing their Wikipedia entries?










I will get back to you with a couple of more quotes for the Afghanistan Pipeline connection. This one from the Guardian a very respected British paper
America's pipe dream
A pro-western regime in Kabul
"Is there any man, is there any woman, let me say any child here," Woodrow Wilson asked a year after the first world war ended, "that does not know that the seed of war in the modern world is industrial and commercial rivalry?" In 1919, as US citizens watched a shredded Europe scraping up its own remains, the answer may well have been no. But the lessons of war never last for long.
The invasion of Afghanistan is certainly a campaign against terrorism, but it may also be a late colonial adventure. British ministers have warned MPs that opposing the war is the moral equivalent of appeasing Hitler, but in some respects our moral choices are closer to those of 1956 than those of 1938. Afghanistan is as indispensable to the regional control and transport of oil in central Asia as Egypt was in the Middle East.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oc ... errorism11
RE: Pacifism and World War 2 Or as I like to call it World One the sequel after a brief intermission to raise another generation of cannon fodder.

The Pacifism Quandary
World War II has always been a tough nut for pacifists. Nicholson Baker tries cracking it.
By Morgan Meis


Pacifism is like virginity. It doesn't work half way. Anybody can be a pacifist when nothing is at stake. The trick is to be a pacifist even in the face of aggression against oneself or the people one cares about. The principle of pacifism, genuine pacifism, is that violence is always counterproductive. Always. A corollary principle is that wars are always bad for everyone involved. Wars, in that sense, are never winnable. Never. Any position that varies from this line isn't really pacifism. It is more like prudence or restraint. It is saying that war ought to be avoided but that it's still a genuine option.
Human Smokle
Last edited by stilltrucking on May 19th, 2010, 5:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Steve Plonk » May 19th, 2010, 4:54 pm

Kind folks and gentle people, it all boils down to this advice: "Keep your head down, ducked in prayer, & pass the ammunition." War is like money, it swears. War is hell, but we don't want to lose it. :wink:
Fall bombs, but don't fall on me...Just think, both FDR & LBJ started out as peace candidates. Say what?!

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Post by stilltrucking » May 19th, 2010, 5:02 pm

The Times Square bomber been on my mind a lot. We were lucky, and vulnerable. They can come against us anytime. And the drone attacks and their collateral damage are calling our chickens home to roost.

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Post by Steve Plonk » May 19th, 2010, 5:19 pm

Yes, Still Trucking, that was a close call in Times Square. Bombing attemptee is supposedly clucking like a chicken and telling who sent him. All the more reason to be vigilant...Good thing we have some luck on our side as well as photos to prove it. But let's keep praying for continuing success in rooting out terrorism in our country. A little prayer can't hurt.
It's good for what ails the soul...

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Post by stilltrucking » May 19th, 2010, 5:29 pm

In the meantime we can keep killing innocent children in Afghanistan and Pakistan. What can that hurt. Where is Malcom X when we need him?

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Post by Steve Plonk » May 19th, 2010, 7:06 pm

These things happen...Interesting crack about Malcolm X. I thought he was a douchebag. :P Satire will get you everywhere. :wink: Keep those cards and epistles flowing out into the net...I'd rather resurrect MLK if I had a choice...So help me, Stokely.

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Post by stilltrucking » May 19th, 2010, 10:41 pm

Crack?
Is that what it was.
Maybe I should have used an emoticon.


You just don't get me steve.

Probably because I am such a shit writer. A reject from the likicks writer's work shop.

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Post by Steve Plonk » May 19th, 2010, 11:26 pm

On the contrary... I thought that we connect at times. We can't always be on the same wavelength. Sometimes people don't get me either. I thought you were being satirical...Sometimes everyone talks a little trash. I'm guilty of the former and of the latter myself...but war really is hellish. No doubt about it...but we can't always connect both satirically and when we "dumpster dive" with our writing. "All is vanity", saith the sooth, "all is vanity..." We two be proud Americans...

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Post by still.trucking » May 19th, 2010, 11:47 pm

I am first generation born in this country. My family brought here to the promised land by the compassion of the good Baron. This country has been good to my family. I try to make myself useful to it.
I shall try to make for them a new home in different lands, where as free farmers on their own soil, they can make themselves useful to that country."

--Baron Maurice de Hirsch in The Forum (August 1891)

http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/wolz ... Hirsch.htm
I will try to use more emoticons because of my poor writing skills give a clue when I am not being sarcastic. A lot of times I will say "sincerely" or "I am as serious as a fart in a space suit."
"Natural selection, as it has operated in human history, favors not only the clever but the murderous." Barbara Ehrenreich

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