In defense of Ecclesiastes :
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
The writer of this quote was wise to use the word 'much' as that is the fact. Even though we learn, as we should day after day, this process enhances our knowledge but does little to extinguish the sorrow one's heart goes thru observing daily life. As Buddha so well knew by stating his First Noble Truth - there is suffering... and 'much' suffering begets 'much' sorrow.
non sum
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Non Sum
Hi,
MT: The writer of this quote was wise to use the word 'much' as that is the fact.
NS: What may well be a 'fact' in your life's experience, sure hasn't been in one particular life that has been dedicated to getting as much of it as possible, i.e. my own; nor, am I alone in this 'fact.'
MT: Even though we learn, as we should day after day, this process enhances our knowledge but does little to extinguish the sorrow one's heart goes thru observing daily life.
NS: Perhaps, your gathering of knowledge has kept you from spending time in distilling wisdom from it?
MT: As Buddha so well knew by stating his First Noble Truth - there is suffering... and 'much' suffering begets 'much' sorrow
NS: Where is the link to 'wisdom' in this tautology?
MT: The writer of this quote was wise to use the word 'much' as that is the fact.
NS: What may well be a 'fact' in your life's experience, sure hasn't been in one particular life that has been dedicated to getting as much of it as possible, i.e. my own; nor, am I alone in this 'fact.'
MT: Even though we learn, as we should day after day, this process enhances our knowledge but does little to extinguish the sorrow one's heart goes thru observing daily life.
NS: Perhaps, your gathering of knowledge has kept you from spending time in distilling wisdom from it?
MT: As Buddha so well knew by stating his First Noble Truth - there is suffering... and 'much' suffering begets 'much' sorrow
NS: Where is the link to 'wisdom' in this tautology?
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Non Sum
Hey MT,
MT: Do you believe wisdom removes you from sorrow?
Of course. Don't you?
Even the most practical of wisdoms lessens one’s pain, and increases one’s happiness, in small ways. When we wish someone to be: ‘healthy, wealthy, and wise,’ it is not intended as a curse.
What, I wonder, is "too much” wisdom? Should we be wise with our money, but unwise with our health in order to compensate?
Ironic you’d include Buddhism with the ‘much wisdom = sorrow’ quote. Since wisdom, as ability to see the Truth, is understood to be the ending of suffering (dukka). You have the major ‘Wisdom Sutra’ (Prajnaparamita), and The Four Wisdoms of the Buddha-nature. Hindu Vedanta credits ignorance (avidya) as the root of being unenlightened, and wisdom (Jnana) as the means for its removal.
I’m surprised to see a wise fellow, such as thee, MT, side with the priests who would have us all think of knowledge and wisdom as tools of the devil. I can’t think of who else but priests would have interjected that quote into the Bible to keep the believers dumb and superstitious.
MT: Do you believe wisdom removes you from sorrow?
Of course. Don't you?
Even the most practical of wisdoms lessens one’s pain, and increases one’s happiness, in small ways. When we wish someone to be: ‘healthy, wealthy, and wise,’ it is not intended as a curse.
What, I wonder, is "too much” wisdom? Should we be wise with our money, but unwise with our health in order to compensate?
Ironic you’d include Buddhism with the ‘much wisdom = sorrow’ quote. Since wisdom, as ability to see the Truth, is understood to be the ending of suffering (dukka). You have the major ‘Wisdom Sutra’ (Prajnaparamita), and The Four Wisdoms of the Buddha-nature. Hindu Vedanta credits ignorance (avidya) as the root of being unenlightened, and wisdom (Jnana) as the means for its removal.
I’m surprised to see a wise fellow, such as thee, MT, side with the priests who would have us all think of knowledge and wisdom as tools of the devil. I can’t think of who else but priests would have interjected that quote into the Bible to keep the believers dumb and superstitious.
NS: Even the most practical of wisdoms lessens one’s pain, and increases one’s happiness, in small ways.
"Practical of wisdoms" is something I'm not familiar with.
NS: "... the ‘wisdom’ that I personally hold as being such must include the quality of increasing happiness. Failing that essential (to me) quality, I fail to see how the label of ‘wisdom’ could ever be applied..."
"Increasing happiness" has little to do with wisdom which includes vastly more than your own personal happiness.
NS: Since wisdom, as ability to see the Truth, is understood to be the ending of suffering
Suffering does not ever end as it is always a state of hu'manity to the observant. One who has gained wisdom knows this.
NS: I’m surprised to see a wise fellow, such as thee, MT, side with the priests who would have us all think of knowledge and wisdom as tools of the devil. I can’t think of who else but priests would have interjected that quote into the Bible to keep the believers dumb and superstitious.
There is a great divide between being a wise guy and a man of wisdom.
I have never thought of knowledge and wisdom as 'tools of the devil' nor do I see anything in the quote that began this conversation to be anything close to what you seem to assume. If I did I would not have given it the comment I did.
"Practical of wisdoms" is something I'm not familiar with.
NS: "... the ‘wisdom’ that I personally hold as being such must include the quality of increasing happiness. Failing that essential (to me) quality, I fail to see how the label of ‘wisdom’ could ever be applied..."
"Increasing happiness" has little to do with wisdom which includes vastly more than your own personal happiness.
NS: Since wisdom, as ability to see the Truth, is understood to be the ending of suffering
Suffering does not ever end as it is always a state of hu'manity to the observant. One who has gained wisdom knows this.
NS: I’m surprised to see a wise fellow, such as thee, MT, side with the priests who would have us all think of knowledge and wisdom as tools of the devil. I can’t think of who else but priests would have interjected that quote into the Bible to keep the believers dumb and superstitious.
There is a great divide between being a wise guy and a man of wisdom.
I have never thought of knowledge and wisdom as 'tools of the devil' nor do I see anything in the quote that began this conversation to be anything close to what you seem to assume. If I did I would not have given it the comment I did._________________________________
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Allow not destiny to intrude upon Now
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Allow not destiny to intrude upon Now
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Non Sum
MT: "Even the most Practical of wisdoms" is something I'm not familiar with.
NS: A common division of wisdom is made between ‘practical wisdom,’ and ‘speculative wisdom.’ The former concerning itself with matters, often learned the hard way, such as, ‘tie up your boat before the tide comes in,’ or ‘keep your guns out of the reach of children.’ That sort of thing.
MT: "Increasing happiness" has little to do with wisdom which includes vastly more than your own personal happiness.
NS: Why do you assume that my reference to happiness was necessarily limited to ‘my personal’ variety of it? ‘Happiness,’ according to Aristotle, and many others, is the ultimate good that never begs the question: ‘why would you want that’. I also take it as being the best litmus test for determining whether or not a person, group, or society, is taking a wise course, or not.
MT: Suffering does not ever end as it is always a state of hu'manity to the observant. One who has gained wisdom knows this.
NS: Then the Buddha (see 3rd Noble Truth of Buddhism), and most of the world’s great sages, must not be “observant,” nor have gained the same variant of “wisdom” as you have. If that observation were in fact an actual ‘wisdom,’ then I am surely happy & wise to have escaped it. Are you sure you haven’t misconstrued ‘wisdom’ with ‘folly’? The litmus test of folly is “suffering.”
MT: There is a great divide between being a wise guy and a man of wisdom.
NS: Not sure that I agree, but thank you, for sharing that bit of wisdom.
”After wisdom comes wit.” (Evan Esar)
Clearly, I had never caught the “divide” before now. How exactly does one discriminate between these two? But wait! If there actually is ‘wisdom’ in this “divide” of yours, won’t it only cause you greater sorrow? Wouldn’t you suffer less in being as unaware as I am about this division?
MT: I have never thought of knowledge and wisdom as 'tools of the devil' nor do I see anything in the quote that began this conversation to be anything close to what you seem to assume.
NS: Well, I didn’t “assume” it. I merely speculated as to the probable motive behind making such an absurd assertion. Not an unreasonable suspicion, in reasoning its source to be from religious scripture handled by millennia of self-seeking priests; all of whom would be soon out of a job were their flock of sheeple to gain much knowledge and wisdom. I’m certainly open to other possibilities. Do you have more likely ones to offer up?
NS: A common division of wisdom is made between ‘practical wisdom,’ and ‘speculative wisdom.’ The former concerning itself with matters, often learned the hard way, such as, ‘tie up your boat before the tide comes in,’ or ‘keep your guns out of the reach of children.’ That sort of thing.
MT: "Increasing happiness" has little to do with wisdom which includes vastly more than your own personal happiness.
NS: Why do you assume that my reference to happiness was necessarily limited to ‘my personal’ variety of it? ‘Happiness,’ according to Aristotle, and many others, is the ultimate good that never begs the question: ‘why would you want that’. I also take it as being the best litmus test for determining whether or not a person, group, or society, is taking a wise course, or not.
MT: Suffering does not ever end as it is always a state of hu'manity to the observant. One who has gained wisdom knows this.
NS: Then the Buddha (see 3rd Noble Truth of Buddhism), and most of the world’s great sages, must not be “observant,” nor have gained the same variant of “wisdom” as you have. If that observation were in fact an actual ‘wisdom,’ then I am surely happy & wise to have escaped it. Are you sure you haven’t misconstrued ‘wisdom’ with ‘folly’? The litmus test of folly is “suffering.”
MT: There is a great divide between being a wise guy and a man of wisdom.
NS: Not sure that I agree, but thank you, for sharing that bit of wisdom.
”After wisdom comes wit.” (Evan Esar)
Clearly, I had never caught the “divide” before now. How exactly does one discriminate between these two? But wait! If there actually is ‘wisdom’ in this “divide” of yours, won’t it only cause you greater sorrow? Wouldn’t you suffer less in being as unaware as I am about this division?
MT: I have never thought of knowledge and wisdom as 'tools of the devil' nor do I see anything in the quote that began this conversation to be anything close to what you seem to assume.
NS: Well, I didn’t “assume” it. I merely speculated as to the probable motive behind making such an absurd assertion. Not an unreasonable suspicion, in reasoning its source to be from religious scripture handled by millennia of self-seeking priests; all of whom would be soon out of a job were their flock of sheeple to gain much knowledge and wisdom. I’m certainly open to other possibilities. Do you have more likely ones to offer up?
O, NS, NS... how foolish you sound today...
NS: Then the Buddha (see 3rd Noble Truth of Buddhism), and most of the world’s great sages, must not be “observant,” nor have gained the same variant of “wisdom” as you have. If that observation were in fact an actual ‘wisdom,’ then I am surely happy & wise to have escaped it.
Now you are asserting buy yet another misconception. Buddha began his Four Noble Truths with "There is suffering" as you are well aware.
Please note, he also told his followers: These Four Noble Truths, monks, are actual, unerring, not otherwise. Therefore, they are called noble truths.
Suffering is a condition of hu'manity. Buddha acknowledged this as his First Noble Truth... the First Noble Truth.
Yes, he transcended his own personal suffering but was wise enough to KNOW that suffering exists. As he was enlightened please be aware Buddha did not scratch this First Noble Truth off his list. Had he done so he would have not been speaking for hu'manity but only for his own self. People of true wisdom KNOW that to live for one's Self exclusively is a denial of our connectedness to all things. This is why I wrote: "Suffering does not ever end as it is always a state of hu'manity to the observant."
But yet you continue with "If that observation were in fact an actual ‘wisdom,’ then I am surely happy & wise to have escaped it. Are you sure you haven’t misconstrued ‘wisdom’ with ‘folly’? The litmus test of folly is “suffering.”
These are not anywhere near being Noble Truths much less words of wisdom. These are declarations of an ego gone mad with unrestrained mind going places that are purely imaginative and are only suitable for yourself. The litmus test of knowing is understanding, my friend... something you seem to be missing here.
The 2nd Noble Truth is "There is a cause of suffering," which I know you can recite effortlessly. But given your misunderstanding of the First Noble Truth, I wonder if you are misconstruing your knowledge of this 2nd Truth..? My reason for saying this is when you immediately went to "see 3rd Noble Truth of Buddhism" without any mention of the 2nd Truth.
If you truly believe you have embraced the cause of all suffering I would be inclined to inquire as to why it is you become so unsettled by my replies regarding both Buddha and Ecclesiastes and you insistence that "in reasoning its source to be from religious scripture handled by millennia of self-seeking priests; all of whom would be soon out of a job were their flock of sheeple to gain much knowledge and wisdom."
There is a streak of anger between those words that describe your negativity towards priests and those who follow their words as being 'sheeple'. Did not Buddha himself have followers? or Jesus? or Mohammad? or the Dali Lama? Are all these people's followers nothing more in your eyes than the derogatory word 'sheeple'?
Please know, my friend, that I too, have ranted about priests and politicians on more than one occasion in Sunday Streams. I also know that was my ego speaking out in frustration toward so much misunderstanding I see happening everyday and that frustration translates into negativity directed towards those priests and politicians that seemingly have such control over their own followers. In a matter of speaking, I suffer when I allow ego to desire all people to understand.
The Third Noble Truth is where you say you've achieved this Truth. Congratulations, Non Sum, for your 'cessation of suffering.' No wonder you are so completely happy and without care. It must be wonderful to know that you have gained this level of understanding and now pure joy and contentment are yours. You've seemingly isolated yourself well from the worldly desires on your mountain top, living with Nature all around you. What is there to desire within that atmosphere? Nada, nada.
But ice-o-lation does not eliminate the suffering that occurs daily outside of your barriers. Suffering is there as it has always been before and since Buddha's First Noble Truth. To deny that truth is to deny all truth.. might as well... one cannot pick and choose there Truths to suit themselves.
The 4th Noble Truth is the Path to the Cessation of Suffering... the Eightfold Path. Most people have to live many lives before they attain Nirvana... the end of suffering, of desire, clinging and attachment. But upon attainment of Nirvana, Buddha did not cease teaching the Noble Truths or the Eightfold Path. That would've been unwise for his to do so. Fortunately his followers have not followed a foolish man on a foolish path.
NS: Then the Buddha (see 3rd Noble Truth of Buddhism), and most of the world’s great sages, must not be “observant,” nor have gained the same variant of “wisdom” as you have. If that observation were in fact an actual ‘wisdom,’ then I am surely happy & wise to have escaped it.
Now you are asserting buy yet another misconception. Buddha began his Four Noble Truths with "There is suffering" as you are well aware.
Please note, he also told his followers: These Four Noble Truths, monks, are actual, unerring, not otherwise. Therefore, they are called noble truths.
Suffering is a condition of hu'manity. Buddha acknowledged this as his First Noble Truth... the First Noble Truth.
Yes, he transcended his own personal suffering but was wise enough to KNOW that suffering exists. As he was enlightened please be aware Buddha did not scratch this First Noble Truth off his list. Had he done so he would have not been speaking for hu'manity but only for his own self. People of true wisdom KNOW that to live for one's Self exclusively is a denial of our connectedness to all things. This is why I wrote: "Suffering does not ever end as it is always a state of hu'manity to the observant."
But yet you continue with "If that observation were in fact an actual ‘wisdom,’ then I am surely happy & wise to have escaped it. Are you sure you haven’t misconstrued ‘wisdom’ with ‘folly’? The litmus test of folly is “suffering.”
These are not anywhere near being Noble Truths much less words of wisdom. These are declarations of an ego gone mad with unrestrained mind going places that are purely imaginative and are only suitable for yourself. The litmus test of knowing is understanding, my friend... something you seem to be missing here.
The 2nd Noble Truth is "There is a cause of suffering," which I know you can recite effortlessly. But given your misunderstanding of the First Noble Truth, I wonder if you are misconstruing your knowledge of this 2nd Truth..? My reason for saying this is when you immediately went to "see 3rd Noble Truth of Buddhism" without any mention of the 2nd Truth.
If you truly believe you have embraced the cause of all suffering I would be inclined to inquire as to why it is you become so unsettled by my replies regarding both Buddha and Ecclesiastes and you insistence that "in reasoning its source to be from religious scripture handled by millennia of self-seeking priests; all of whom would be soon out of a job were their flock of sheeple to gain much knowledge and wisdom."
There is a streak of anger between those words that describe your negativity towards priests and those who follow their words as being 'sheeple'. Did not Buddha himself have followers? or Jesus? or Mohammad? or the Dali Lama? Are all these people's followers nothing more in your eyes than the derogatory word 'sheeple'?
Please know, my friend, that I too, have ranted about priests and politicians on more than one occasion in Sunday Streams. I also know that was my ego speaking out in frustration toward so much misunderstanding I see happening everyday and that frustration translates into negativity directed towards those priests and politicians that seemingly have such control over their own followers. In a matter of speaking, I suffer when I allow ego to desire all people to understand.
The Third Noble Truth is where you say you've achieved this Truth. Congratulations, Non Sum, for your 'cessation of suffering.' No wonder you are so completely happy and without care. It must be wonderful to know that you have gained this level of understanding and now pure joy and contentment are yours. You've seemingly isolated yourself well from the worldly desires on your mountain top, living with Nature all around you. What is there to desire within that atmosphere? Nada, nada.
But ice-o-lation does not eliminate the suffering that occurs daily outside of your barriers. Suffering is there as it has always been before and since Buddha's First Noble Truth. To deny that truth is to deny all truth.. might as well... one cannot pick and choose there Truths to suit themselves.
The 4th Noble Truth is the Path to the Cessation of Suffering... the Eightfold Path. Most people have to live many lives before they attain Nirvana... the end of suffering, of desire, clinging and attachment. But upon attainment of Nirvana, Buddha did not cease teaching the Noble Truths or the Eightfold Path. That would've been unwise for his to do so. Fortunately his followers have not followed a foolish man on a foolish path.
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Allow not destiny to intrude upon Now
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Allow not destiny to intrude upon Now
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still.trucking
- Posts: 1967
- Joined: May 9th, 2009, 12:56 am
- Location: Oz or someplace like Kansas
<center>Buddha was not a Buddhist Christ was not a Christian.</center>
Cecil wrote
. I don't know know much about Tarot cards, but I think Non Sum has dealt himself the fear card. Fear and anger so entangled like flip sides of the same card? are their flip sides in the tarot?
Speaking for myself when I am threatened by some train of thought I get defensive and angry.
Please pardon me for breaking into your conversation
Cecil wrote
There is a streak of anger between those words that describe your negativity towards priests and those who follow their words as being 'sheeple'. Did not Buddha himself have followers? or Jesus? or Mohammad? or the Dali Lama? Are all these people's followers nothing more in your eyes than the derogatory word 'sheeple'?
. I don't know know much about Tarot cards, but I think Non Sum has dealt himself the fear card. Fear and anger so entangled like flip sides of the same card? are their flip sides in the tarot?
Speaking for myself when I am threatened by some train of thought I get defensive and angry.
Please pardon me for breaking into your conversation
Where do we find this truth? Although we can rely to some degree on the wisdom we find in books and on the advice of respected spiritual authorities, that's only the beginning. The journey to genuine truth begins when you discover a true question -- one that comes from the heart -- from your own life and experience. That question will lead to an answer that will lead to another question, and so on. That's how it goes on the spiritual path.
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfa ... c-religion
JT:"Speaking for myself when I am threatened by some train of thought I get defensive and angry.
Please pardon me for breaking into your conversation "
No need to apologize, amigo. It's your thread. Maybe I should apologize for taking Ecclesiastes off on a seldom used track..?
Please pardon me for breaking into your conversation "
No need to apologize, amigo. It's your thread. Maybe I should apologize for taking Ecclesiastes off on a seldom used track..?
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Allow not destiny to intrude upon Now
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Allow not destiny to intrude upon Now
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still.trucking
- Posts: 1967
- Joined: May 9th, 2009, 12:56 am
- Location: Oz or someplace like Kansas
Would be interested to hear what track you would like to take this one on.
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."
Where is mingo when I need him he not only knows scripture better than me he has a four wheel drive Jeep, he can follow any track
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."
Where is mingo when I need him he not only knows scripture better than me he has a four wheel drive Jeep, he can follow any track
JT: "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."
Any idea where that line came from? Part of the knowledge, you know?
But off the cuff, I take the word 'beginning' as being but the 'first step' in understanding where this fear originates, i.e. the beginning of knowledge about that which is Absolute. To overcome our fears it is incumbent upon the fearful to attempt to understand this fear thru understanding (re: psychology or contemplation or meditation... depending upon the level of discovery necessary to overcome said fear).
As far as 'fools' despising wisdom and instruction... I'm not sure if that is stated clearly (perhaps an interpretation weakness?), as how can one despise that which the one who despises recognizes as being wisdom unless the perception of wisdom is such that it confuses and dumbfounds the fool (he who is fooled by their own foolishness).
Any idea where that line came from? Part of the knowledge, you know?
But off the cuff, I take the word 'beginning' as being but the 'first step' in understanding where this fear originates, i.e. the beginning of knowledge about that which is Absolute. To overcome our fears it is incumbent upon the fearful to attempt to understand this fear thru understanding (re: psychology or contemplation or meditation... depending upon the level of discovery necessary to overcome said fear).
As far as 'fools' despising wisdom and instruction... I'm not sure if that is stated clearly (perhaps an interpretation weakness?), as how can one despise that which the one who despises recognizes as being wisdom unless the perception of wisdom is such that it confuses and dumbfounds the fool (he who is fooled by their own foolishness).
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Allow not destiny to intrude upon Now
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Allow not destiny to intrude upon Now
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Non Sum
Hey dudes,
I had to reread my last post to see whereof you managed to get the notion that I was “angry” about priests and their “flock of sheep” (the priest’s/”shepard’s” word, not mine, they apply to their parishioners). All that I could come up with was your possible psychological transference. Please, believe me, I am not angered by religionists nor the irreligious, not by this enjoyable discussion, nor by my enjoyably intelligent interlocutors. OTOH, if I am angering anyone, please tell me where I gave offense, so that I may apologize and cease the unintended evil.
MT: Buddha began his Four Noble Truths with "There is suffering" as you are well aware.
NS: Yes, I am always aware. ‘There is laughing’, also. Does that mean that ‘all of humanity is presently laughing’? Why then take it that they are all suffering, when he didn’t say anything of the sort?
It’s important to understand that Buddhism isn’t intent of stating an irrevocable situation, but rather to remedy a common (not universal) state of affairs. The 4 Noble Truths are saying: 1. here’s the problem, 2. here’s what makes it, 3. there is a way to ‘end’ the problem, 4. here’s the fix.
Why I mentioned #3 was because you said:
RE: MT: “Suffering does not ever end as it is always a state of hu'manity to the observant. One who has gained wisdom knows this.”
I thought #3 (suffering ends) went straight to a direct contradiction of your statement, no?
MT: If you truly believe you have embraced the cause of all suffering I would be inclined to inquire as to why it is you become so unsettled by my replies
NS: But I’m not unsettled, my friend. But, I fear that you yourself are. You go to personal attacks against me (“ego gone mad,” “how foolish I sound”) when I’ve only made statements addressed to the issues. Please try to do so also. Your friendship is worth much more to me than some silly discussion, meant only to engage our cerebral amusement. I’ll gladly concede any point you wish me to, if it will smooth your ruffled feathers.
MT: In a matter of speaking, I suffer when I allow ego to desire all people to understand
NS: While we do share several opinions regarding politicians and priests, do not think that it follows that I must feel the same emotions while holding these opinions. I don’t. Quite the contrary. As I, the Taoists, and Liebnitz, have told you before, ‘this is the best of all possible worlds.’ Not because I feel we must settle for, and merely accept, what we’ve been dealt; but, because the Tao is most excellent in her ways, and it pleases me to see both its ‘yes & no’ flow.
MT: Suffering is there as it has always been before and since Buddha's First Noble Truth. To deny that truth is to deny all truth.. might as well... one cannot pick and choose there Truths to suit themselves.
NS: It is you who has gotten stuck upon the 1st Noble Truth, while I’ve taken in the whole of it, just as Buddha has intended that all sentient beings must in order to end their personal suffering. We all begin at #1, but that is not where Buddha intended we should remain. The purpose of suffering is the same as the purpose of the 4 Noble Truths, i.e. to bring all sentient beings out of the illusion of suffering existence within maya. Do remember that the Buddhist ‘anatta doctrine’ asserts that: “There is suffering, but no one suffers.”
Fun discussion for me. Come, play with these ideas with me, but remember not to fall into concern (i.e. ‘attachment’ #2 NT), lest you suffer.
Peace, NS (Nothing’s Serious)
I had to reread my last post to see whereof you managed to get the notion that I was “angry” about priests and their “flock of sheep” (the priest’s/”shepard’s” word, not mine, they apply to their parishioners). All that I could come up with was your possible psychological transference. Please, believe me, I am not angered by religionists nor the irreligious, not by this enjoyable discussion, nor by my enjoyably intelligent interlocutors. OTOH, if I am angering anyone, please tell me where I gave offense, so that I may apologize and cease the unintended evil.
MT: Buddha began his Four Noble Truths with "There is suffering" as you are well aware.
NS: Yes, I am always aware. ‘There is laughing’, also. Does that mean that ‘all of humanity is presently laughing’? Why then take it that they are all suffering, when he didn’t say anything of the sort?
It’s important to understand that Buddhism isn’t intent of stating an irrevocable situation, but rather to remedy a common (not universal) state of affairs. The 4 Noble Truths are saying: 1. here’s the problem, 2. here’s what makes it, 3. there is a way to ‘end’ the problem, 4. here’s the fix.
Why I mentioned #3 was because you said:
RE: MT: “Suffering does not ever end as it is always a state of hu'manity to the observant. One who has gained wisdom knows this.”
I thought #3 (suffering ends) went straight to a direct contradiction of your statement, no?
MT: If you truly believe you have embraced the cause of all suffering I would be inclined to inquire as to why it is you become so unsettled by my replies
NS: But I’m not unsettled, my friend. But, I fear that you yourself are. You go to personal attacks against me (“ego gone mad,” “how foolish I sound”) when I’ve only made statements addressed to the issues. Please try to do so also. Your friendship is worth much more to me than some silly discussion, meant only to engage our cerebral amusement. I’ll gladly concede any point you wish me to, if it will smooth your ruffled feathers.
MT: In a matter of speaking, I suffer when I allow ego to desire all people to understand
NS: While we do share several opinions regarding politicians and priests, do not think that it follows that I must feel the same emotions while holding these opinions. I don’t. Quite the contrary. As I, the Taoists, and Liebnitz, have told you before, ‘this is the best of all possible worlds.’ Not because I feel we must settle for, and merely accept, what we’ve been dealt; but, because the Tao is most excellent in her ways, and it pleases me to see both its ‘yes & no’ flow.
MT: Suffering is there as it has always been before and since Buddha's First Noble Truth. To deny that truth is to deny all truth.. might as well... one cannot pick and choose there Truths to suit themselves.
NS: It is you who has gotten stuck upon the 1st Noble Truth, while I’ve taken in the whole of it, just as Buddha has intended that all sentient beings must in order to end their personal suffering. We all begin at #1, but that is not where Buddha intended we should remain. The purpose of suffering is the same as the purpose of the 4 Noble Truths, i.e. to bring all sentient beings out of the illusion of suffering existence within maya. Do remember that the Buddhist ‘anatta doctrine’ asserts that: “There is suffering, but no one suffers.”
Fun discussion for me. Come, play with these ideas with me, but remember not to fall into concern (i.e. ‘attachment’ #2 NT), lest you suffer.
Peace, NS (Nothing’s Serious)
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stilltrucking
- Posts: 20649
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Cecil wrote:
My first thoughts off the cuff "gut reaction"
It is a troubling passage for me Cecil. I get pretty pissed at that mighty smitey lord of my mothers and fathers before me.
I need to think about it some more, this just a reflex kind of reply
N.S (always civil)
wrote:
sincerely
jt
Any idea where that line came from? Part of the knowledge, you know?
But off the cuff, I take the word 'beginning' as being but the 'first step' in understanding where this fear originates, i.e. the beginning of knowledge about that which is Absolute. To overcome our fears it is incumbent upon the fearful to attempt to understand this fear thru understanding (re: psychology or contemplation or meditation... depending upon the level of discovery necessary to overcome said fear).
As far as 'fools' despising wisdom and instruction... I'm not sure if that is stated clearly (perhaps an interpretation weakness?), as how can one despise that which the one who despises recognizes as being wisdom unless the perception of wisdom is such that it confuses and dumbfounds the fool (he who is fooled by their own foolishness).
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."
My first thoughts off the cuff "gut reaction"
It is a troubling passage for me Cecil. I get pretty pissed at that mighty smitey lord of my mothers and fathers before me.
I need to think about it some more, this just a reflex kind of reply
N.S (always civil)
wrote:
Sorry Dude that was rude of me to talk about you in the third personHey dudes,
sincerely
jt
Re: Congratulations, Non Sum, for your 'cessation of suffering.' No wonder you are so completely happy and without care. It must be wonderful to know that you have gained this level of understanding and now pure joy and contentment are yours. You've seemingly isolated yourself well from the worldly desires on your mountain top, living with Nature all around you. What is there to desire within that atmosphere? Nada, nada.
NS: Why then take it that they are all suffering, when he didn’t say anything of the sort?
Where do you come up with this stuff, amigo? I was simply stating what old Sidd had found upon his awakening, i.e. there is suffering. I don't recall anywhere reading where he said "there's also laughing." Perhaps you can direct me to that line. I'd like to read it because I do believe that laughing is part and parcel, the yin/yang of joy/sorrow. Why do you think Buddha brought that up? To crack a joke for you?
NS: ‘this is the best of all possible worlds.’
Sure. Wherever our world is at the moment is the best for us.
NS: "It is you who has gotten stuck upon the 1st Noble Truth, while I’ve taken in the whole of it..."
This current reply series (?) began with something in Ecclesiastes which said: "For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow." It seems to have degenerated into other ideas and other's sayings.
Going back to the origins of this I came in in 'defense of Ecc' by concluding that post with "As Buddha so well knew by stating his First Noble Truth - there is suffering... and 'much' suffering begets 'much' sorrow."
It is the First Noble Truth that has sustained this 'dis-cussion' I think. Either that or we're all just listening to our own ideas to simply talk... which is an excellent mode of communications if both parties are party to the communications party.
If you, NS, disagree that 'there is suffering' and 'much suffering begets much sorrow' I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning other than being an agreeable fellow that I am (mostly!).
Re: Congratulations, Non Sum, for your 'cessation of suffering.' No wonder you are so completely happy and without care. It must be wonderful to know that you have gained this level of understanding and now pure joy and contentment are yours. You've seemingly isolated yourself well from the worldly desires on your mountain top, living with Nature all around you. What is there to desire within that atmosphere? Nada, nada.
If you are a perfectly satisfied individual so be it.
NS: Come, play with these ideas with me, but remember not to fall into concern (i.e. ‘attachment’ #2 NT), lest you suffer.
My only concern is your well-being. What harm comes from a little suffering? There is only joy awaiting in the end.
NS: Why then take it that they are all suffering, when he didn’t say anything of the sort?
Where do you come up with this stuff, amigo? I was simply stating what old Sidd had found upon his awakening, i.e. there is suffering. I don't recall anywhere reading where he said "there's also laughing." Perhaps you can direct me to that line. I'd like to read it because I do believe that laughing is part and parcel, the yin/yang of joy/sorrow. Why do you think Buddha brought that up? To crack a joke for you?
NS: ‘this is the best of all possible worlds.’
Sure. Wherever our world is at the moment is the best for us.
NS: "It is you who has gotten stuck upon the 1st Noble Truth, while I’ve taken in the whole of it..."
This current reply series (?) began with something in Ecclesiastes which said: "For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow." It seems to have degenerated into other ideas and other's sayings.
Going back to the origins of this I came in in 'defense of Ecc' by concluding that post with "As Buddha so well knew by stating his First Noble Truth - there is suffering... and 'much' suffering begets 'much' sorrow."
It is the First Noble Truth that has sustained this 'dis-cussion' I think. Either that or we're all just listening to our own ideas to simply talk... which is an excellent mode of communications if both parties are party to the communications party.
If you, NS, disagree that 'there is suffering' and 'much suffering begets much sorrow' I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning other than being an agreeable fellow that I am (mostly!).
Re: Congratulations, Non Sum, for your 'cessation of suffering.' No wonder you are so completely happy and without care. It must be wonderful to know that you have gained this level of understanding and now pure joy and contentment are yours. You've seemingly isolated yourself well from the worldly desires on your mountain top, living with Nature all around you. What is there to desire within that atmosphere? Nada, nada.
If you are a perfectly satisfied individual so be it.
NS: Come, play with these ideas with me, but remember not to fall into concern (i.e. ‘attachment’ #2 NT), lest you suffer.
My only concern is your well-being. What harm comes from a little suffering? There is only joy awaiting in the end.
_________________________________
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Allow not destiny to intrude upon Now
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Allow not destiny to intrude upon Now
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stilltrucking
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<center>Zen Fear
I was born for it</center>
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<center>Zen Fear
I was born for it</center>
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