Ban on Most Abortions Advances in South Dakota

[bohonato]

Stilltrucking -
I didn't view your question as unkind. I've actually been contemplating it for a day or two. I have never been put in a situation where I have physically had to turn the other cheek. That is to say, no one has ever physically attacked me; I try my best to avoid fights. I would, of course, say that I would turn the other cheek. But that's fine and dandy while I'm sitting at home.

I would never condemn someone for defending themselves. If I saw someone else being attacked, I would intervene. If someone hit me with a two by four, I would be pretty pissed and all my idealism may fly out the window. I don't recognize violence as a valid means to an end, but sometimes it is quite unavoidable.

All of it can get really hazy when I think of situations like the civil rights movement in the 60s. Did the workers have the right to carry a gun when there were people would kill them without any remorse. Immediately I would say yes. If some crazy cat dressed in sheets can after me with a noose, the only motive for this murder the color of my skin, would I shoot that mother? Would I have the right to kill him? Honestly, I don't know.

I am a pacifist too, but only up to a point

Maybe that describes me, too.

To use the over-quoted quote
'An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind'

By participating in violence, do we continue to promote violence?

I apologize for digressing from the topic of abortion.

[stilltrucking]

Think you for the reply

I should have put this on the lethal injection string. The civil rights freedom riders had a cause. maybe a cop out for me to say this but I think it is dfferednt than a random act of violence when you are just walking down the street.



On the abortion issue

Violence can be done with the stroke of a pen too. Until we come up with a better class of men, women are going to find themselves in situations that may require an abortion. These people so concerned with paying lip service to life, have no concern for the quality of that life. SO it seems to me.

So many of the people who are so concernecd for the unborn, seem to have no concern for those who have been born. America eats its young.

[firsty]

we're really generalizing, arent we? are there any stats that show that the majority of abortions are carried out in order to rectify cases where a woman was raped? are we really saying that most abortions happen because men are evil and women are helpless?

is the goal to protect women who would use a wire hanger in a back alley? is that who we're protecting?

i understand that that was the situation, i'm not denying that, and while i'm opposed in every way to abortions, i dont feel that the solution is suddenly outlawing abortions. but i think it's best to cool it on the BAD men HELPLESS women bs, because most abortions are NOT the result of rape. they are the result of a woman choosing that she's not or her and her partner arent ready for a child, or that a child would pose hardships, financial or otherwise, on the woman or couple. so lets not harp too much on the rape thing, because if that was REALLY what pro-choice advocates were fighting for, the rape and incest exceptions, that would already be part of the laws, no?

[firsty]

i have to wonder how selfish we are as a society when we've institutionalized this method of birth control, really. when we've justifed ending a life so that people can get their rocks off in a certain way, what with all the ways available to us to get our rocks off that dont come with the possibility of pregnancy.

i think instead of holding up signs of aborted fetuses, pro-life activists might want to hold up pictures of handjobs, fingerfucking, oral sex, anal sex, dry humping, footjobs, dildos, vibrators, strapons, etc etc etc. apparently some people need a lesson in how to get their rocks off without ending up in the abortion clinic.

[stilltrucking]

are we really saying that most abortions happen because men are evil and women are helpless?

Ok lets not generalize

let us look at this from the phenomenological approach, as if we are in a female body. I am not talking about obcure sexuality, I am talking about the great unwashed bourgwhyzee slobs in the hump of the bell curve. those of us who have submitted to our anatomical destiny. We are more male than female. I would call myself a proto-feminist. My reproductive system very rarely bleeds. I tend to trust spider woman more than spider men. It is not our bodies that are the issue, their body sovereignty. I think it should be left up to women. Anything a man can do tohelp his sister to be free is got to be done.

Short of violence.

[firsty]

well, women have a unique and challenging position in humanity as the bearers of children. i dont think there is a one-to-one correlation between the right to get a tattoo on one's body and the right to end the life inside one's body. the breeding life has body sovereignty as well, so i dont think it's entirely correct to look at it as simply as owning one's body. if a woman doesnt appreciate having the responsibility of breeding children, she can always tie the tubes, after all. right?

[stilltrucking]

Wouldn't it be nice if you just found out your boy friend was had just given the the gift of HIV. All those preachers talking about HIV as gods punishment on gay men. They forget to mention that god loves lesbians a lot. I don't know why we keep talking about this. This is not our business. Even if our ex wife girl freind is a bitch who is getting an abortion because she wants to punish the son of bitch who got her pregnant and then betrayed her.

Not our issue
I think all men should tread softly here, gay men straight men, super men, spider men, just stay focused on women and children

[firsty]

yeah, just let the chicks do whatever they want. altho it wouldnt be a bad idea if more of em knew how to give a good blow job instead of all this straight sex. make the world a happier place. more men smiling, fewer abortions, better nutrition.

somehow the ladies get all the luck. they can abort without notifying hubby. they can get child support from men who aint the baby daddy. breast cancer gets its own ribbon while all prostate cancer gets is lance armstrong. criticizing the babes is so off limits. abortion is everyone's problem. all those kids had daddies too.

[stilltrucking]

you are right we men are getting screwed,

aint it great.

listen firsty
you don't want to take a chance she might abort your baby get a vasectomy, or better yet don't fuck her.

[bohonato]

altho it wouldnt be a bad idea if more of em knew how to give a good blow job instead of all this straight sex. make the world a happier place. more men smiling, fewer abortions, better nutrition.

Is sex solely about women giving men pleasure?

[firsty]

bo-

no. it is about men and women being pleasured. is sex the only way for a woman to be pleasured?

[mnaz]

I have to say.... I'm in general agreement with firsty that we should be loathe to consider abortion as just another form of "birth control". I think his basic point (as I understood it) of taking greater responsibility to avoid pregnancy to begin with has merit.

I personally don't agree with abortion, especially later-term. If I were female and pregnant, I sincerely doubt that I could bring myself to have an abortion. But this is undeniably an issue with much genuine uncertainty and disagreement over when "human life begins", both philosophically and scientifically, and as such, I just feel that I must "go the extra mile" not to impose my particular "moral preference" on others.

[stilltrucking]

I think his basic point (as I understood it) of taking greater responsibility to avoid pregnancy to begin with has merit.

Yeah them fucking women getting pregnant they ought to take more care. It is certainly not a man's problem.


This is not about sex. This is a about power. We men can say all we want about it and it is very touching, but St Paul is dead.

Abortion is horrible. But it is not something a man has to bear. Bottom line women do not have a say. The supreme court has one woman. congress is about 90 percent men. They are under represented.

What gives you the right to dictate to a woman what her reproductive rights are? St Paul is dead. Why are we talking about this. It is our job to support and advise if asked. Not to make pronouncements/

[firsty]

mnaz, yeah yeah!

however, as far as imposing moral preferences, i think the line between life and body has been blurred nay smudged by the pro-choice movement. some laws have basis in morality - laws against stealing and murder, for instance, and i'd be hardpressed to come up with a valid reason for legalizing the option to kill my neighbor just because he's going to intrude on my lifestyle, by playing his music too loud, or by owning a lawnmower that blows cut grass on my porch. i could try to say that i'm morally within my right to kill him because he's intruding on my pursuit of happiness, but the argument would be that my killing him is intruding upon his pursuit of happiness, so morality conflicts, and we must rule on the side of the higher morality that murder is bad, which is one of the ten commandments. it being one of the ten commandments doesnt invalidate murder's position as being bad for society.

then, is abortion murder or is it body sovereignty? here, the line has been smudged. a life is created upon conception. bullshit arguments about the then slippery slope are just that - bullshit. no, life doesnt begin when one thinks about having sex or when sperm is launched, or when the egg drops. life beings at conception. after that, it's simply maturity. before that, it's simply setup.

so then, how do we value life at this point, which is fragile, subject to a much higher degree of chance than post-partum or even 2nd or 3rd trimester life? what we've done is place this level of maturity at a degree of value less than that of its more mature forms. this is semantics, and abortion being assigned something less than that of murder is simply semantics. we value the convenience of one body more highly than that of an immature life. i think thats a pretty clear moral mistake, and, yes, people can disagree on that, but not without much semantic wrangling.

[firsty]

stilltrucking - the feminists have ruined you, you poor man. get some balls. a woman's reproductive rights are the same as a man's. abstain, protect, or deal with it. calling abortion the execution of one's reproductive rights is just another copout. everyone has the right to not have sex in the first place.