hezbollah just found out. . .

[Arcadia]

Twelve years today here since the terrorist attack against the A.M.I.A , a Jewish Mutual in Buenos Aires. 85 dead. Sad and cruel. Hezbollah hands, they said, but they didn't find them... last year the gov talked about one lebanese citizen as sospechoso. Some years before that our gov was supporting Bush the first in the Gulf War... Nothing justificates that blind ammount of violence and murder but sure there are things that certainly can promote that kind of things. Today's only a tapa's chiste in pagina/12. Tomorrow will be different.

I think Israel overreacted this time (of course, I'm not an israeli) .That sure can be dangerous for both sides but most of the dead ones are now in one side... Auch, Italy is the mediator, no?

[Arcadia]

"En cambio, Estados Unidos mantiene una postura muy clara. El embajador ante la ONU, John Bolton, no sólo cuestionó la efectividad de una eventual misión de paz, sino que además aseguró que las víctimas libanesas no son moralmente equivalentes a las que mueren en un ataque terrorista."

"the moral equivalencia in deaths..". Maybe it's not a good point to start a peace conversation in this situation (hey, it's clear that the arabs don't have the resources to do war alla americana or europea..there is the oil thing but ..., the terrorism is war for some of them). Maybe the number of deaths is not also a good point to start a peace conversation in this situation....

it's already done!

[jimboloco]

yes the tactics of terrorism are inexcuseable
yes
and the tactics of mass air war are inexcuseable

both bad

yes

and one does not excuse the other

the former israeli administration under Sharon was more perceptive
this idiot in charge there now is bad for Israel

remember I am a veteran of a massive air and ground war, an occupation
South Vietnam and the air war was flown from there and from Thailand against Cambodia, Laos and all of Vietnam. I saw a lot of it.
this one against Lebanon will not be any better a solution and the suffering that has already happenned is hellish.
I am sure the media is censored within Israel.

Bolton and our talking with foodinhismouth cussing prezidunce both have little regard for anyone in the third world who is not blue-eyed, or oil rich.
Ot a strategic ally.
The United nations needs to call for an immediate cease fire from bith sides, but of course, the planned Lebanon air campaign will continue and so the missiles from Hezbollah will also
and the targets within Israel are numerous as well, so there will be more suffering.

For what?
nothing will be gained. No long term solution will come of this. It will only get worse. There is a miilitary buildup underway rightnow inside Israel. Something worse may happen, if that is conceivable.
alguno mas malo puede ocurrar, si es concebible

[firsty]

this is what i found myself thinking last nite:

at least when we invaded iraq, we gave warning. we allowed citizens of foreign countries to get the fuck out.

israel should be bombed by the US for putting our citizens in harm's way.

of course, the US is the last to react to getting their people out of lebanon, so what the fuck anyway.

[the flaming ace]

yah an they're charging them big bucks to get evacuated
look
first the Israelies bombed the Beirut airport
bombed the runways
then the Lebanese made a huge batch of hummus and filled in the holes
and the airport was opened briefly but the warplanes came again
so
no airport
and the American Unicversity in Beirut?
fuck

"I just feel pure unadulterated rage," said Effie Walker, a full-time AUB student from Arizona. "Hizbullah is not Lebanon, and Israel has no right to do this to this beautiful country."

[singlemalt]

at least when we invaded iraq, we gave warning. we allowed citizens of foreign countries to get the fuck out.

israel should be bombed by the US for putting our citizens in harm's way.

of course, the US is the last to react to getting their people out of lebanon, so what the fuck anyway.

firsty, i'll keep this as nice as i can, but you're way off on this one. i know you have the urge to let loose with a "u.s. and israel are the root of all evil" diatribe, but i'm somewhat surpirsed at your quote.

[firsty]

the US and israel are not the root of all evil, come on, dude. you know me better than that, no?

israel fuckin overreacted. by FAR most of the casualties are civilians, and israel gave no warning to the international citizens of lebanon, citizens of countries supposedly allied with israel.

we complain about america being about brute force, etc. israel is certainly threatened by terrorists, but look at this shit.

imagine, if you will, a school of american children signing bombs that we were going to use in iraq. can you imagine the fucking outrage?

http://www.boingboing.net/2006/07/18/im ... y_chi.html

israel is no golden child. dont be blind.

[singlemalt]

first of all, civilian casualties in lebanon and israel are both terrible.

the only point i was trying to make is that when you commit an act of war, such as killing another country's citizens and kidnapping soldiers, you have to expect a fucking response. obviously hezbolah, iran and syria underestimated the response. i have zero sympathy for the terrorist shitbags in iran syria and lebanon.

did israel overreact? well, i agree that the response was disproportionate. but we all know that israel doesn't make a move without the u.s.'s approval (explicit or implicit). is israel's response a pretext to a larger plan or is it so send a message or is it being done to lure iran into a war so either israel or the u.s. can take out thier nuke facilities? obviously i don't know.

and i don't know what to make of the picture. is it legit? i kind of find it hard to believe. but if so, it's a goddam shame.

[stilltrucking]

the only point i was trying to make is that when you commit an act of war, such as killing another country's citizens and kidnapping soldiers, you have to expect a fucking response.

Exactly, so when Israel attacked the USS Liberty in cold blood and killed thirty seven sailors and wounded about a hundred. you would not expect Israel to award the the boat that fired the torpodeos a unit commendation for a job well done. Of course they also issued an appology for the tragic mistake.

WAR CRIMES REPORT FILED BY USS LIBERTY SURVIVORS
HTML Version of War Crimes Report

The USS Liberty Veterans Association has filed a formal
Report with the Department of Defense
of War Crimes Committed Against U.S. Military Personnel on June 8, 1967, by elements of the Israeli military forces.

http://www.ussliberty.org/

Oh well what the fuck as homer siimpson said you can use facts to prove...

[singlemalt]

trucking -- you want to compare an accident nearly 40 years ago to a planned, intentional kidnapping and murder by terrorists? laughable.

the president of the USA himself (LBJ) and the CIA said the liberty was an accident.

check your facts and spin your propoganda somewhere else. or better yet, get oliver stone to spin the facts for you. he's good at making up shit.

[stilltrucking]

it was no accident. it was deliberate and cold blooded. And you know what? I know you know that is the truth. What was your name on litkicks, tete offensive/jim vinny? Go ahead pull my daisy. I really don't care. No hard feelings, I am a big toby keith fan myself.

good luck with what ever it is you are doing here.

[jimboloco]

My beef is with the air war throughout Lebanon.
So when singlemAlt sayz that payback's a bitch, he is using a set of words that imply a lack of comprehension for what happened in the first place and the disproportionate amount of violence that has ensued.

As you all know, we've got Judih in a kibbutz in southeast Israel and we care for her, appreciate her, have enjoyed her presence, a warm healing sensitive and positive persona, so nobody wants Israel to slide into the sea, infact, I have been saying that this air war into Lebanon is impracticle, not pragmatic, and actually endangers everybody inside Israel, now and for the long term. The acute rage that has been fueled by these "disproportionate" air strikes into Lebanon will assure that the martyrs brigades will flourish.

we are inagreement that the response was "disproportionate."

As far as the Hezbollah missiles into Israel, they are futile gestures yes and should also be stopped. I understand that the israeli military is specifically targeting these suspected missile sights, all of which are in far southern Lebanon. But the air war into and throught the country, again with many civilians being killed, and that is no fictional storytelling, has got to stop. Nothing is being gained by this and the suffering is terrible. It serves more as a psychological stimulant for the singlemAlts of the world.
IN his Vietnam trilogy of films Stone was telling the truth, a lot more so that the liers in the American government who faked the Gulf of Tonkin, who lied us into that war stating that the commies would be rolling into America if we didn't kill them over there. So what happened. We killed them over there and no commies here in America, duh, gees it worked.

[jimboloco]

My beef is with the air war throughout Lebanon.
So when singlemAlt sayz that payback's a bitch, he is using a set of words that imply a lack of comprehension for what happened in the first place and the disproportionate amount of violence that has ensued.

As you all know, we've got Judih in a kibbutz in southeast Israel and we care for her, appreciate her, have enjoyed her presence, a warm healing sensitive and positive persona, so nobody wants Israel to slide into the sea, infact, I have been saying that this air war into Lebanon is impractical, not pragmatic, and actually endangers everybody inside Israel, now and for the long term. The acute rage that has been fueled by these "disproportionate" air strikes into Lebanon will assure that the martyrs brigades will flourish.

we are inagreement that the response was "disproportionate."

As far as the Hezbollah missiles into Israel, they are futile gestures yes and should also be stopped. I understand that the israeli military is specifically targeting these suspected missile sights, all of which are in far southern Lebanon. But the air war into and throught the country, again with many civilians being killed, and that is no fictional storytelling, has got to stop. Nothing is being gained by this and the suffering is terrible. It serves more as a psychological stimulant for the singlemAlts of the world.
IN his Vietnam trilogy of films Stone was telling the truth, a lot more so that the liers in the American government who faked the Gulf of Tonkin, who lied us into that war stating that the commies would be rolling into America if we didn't kill them over there. So what happened. We killed them over there and no commies here in America, duh, gees it worked.
And he was telling truth in Salvador. So when you are talking about truth telling versus lying, ya'd better wake up, because you are being lied to in order to satisfy your tribal inflammatory instincts. Been there done that.

Don't give the American government the moral high road here about telling the truth.

Ya wanna check it out
Sure I dig those Marine choppers flying the folks out. Everybody can see that those are doing good. But have you paid any atention to the actual killings that have happened inside lebanon and indeed also Israel as a result of this war? Who started it? I don't give a damn. That's junior high school adolescent pisshead nonsense. Did Israel fire the first airstrike into Lebanon after the Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers? When did Hezbollah start firing its missiles into Israel?


and so singlemAlt, now you've got several million people in tthe Islamic world who are saying,
wow, payback's a bitch, just wait.
Hezbollah will either be there or not, but the anger remains and someone or thing will fill thhe vaccuum.

What ever we are doing here at the culture board is good, not bad, it couldn't have been better. thatnks for your little refrain, singlemAlt.
Ya brought out the best in me, not the beast. I cAn figt, am a fighter.
But the insane abuse of power does not get it, man it doesnot work against insurgents and especially when the civilian costs are so high.
So when you say that "payback's a bitch" I really don't think you have a clue. You dn't have a clue about the level of violence and the specific tragedies that have happenned and you don't have a clue about the geo-political ramifications, but then neither does the Israeli Air Farce. And they don't care, either, just like you, calloused and unfeeling. At least that's how you present yourself with your tidy little wornout refrain.

Payback is a female dog?

[judih]

jim,
thanks for acknowleding my right to exist - it helps in this world of question marks
but i'm not in the South-East.
Kibbutz Nir-Oz is in the Western Negev.
Our fields are just east of the Gaza strip, and our neighbours are a fairly well-off Palestinian village.

This thread is filled with opinions of all sorts, and facts are being tossed around.

One thing is for sure - this area is not VietNam, nor is it the West. Lebanon is being targeted because Lebanon is allowing its southern territory to be run by Hizbollah, a terrorist organization.
When Israel left Lebanon, all of those against any presence in Lebanon were thrilled and notably relieved (myself included).
But now, it turns out that our leaving Lebanon did not signal that everything was wrapped up and ready for peace - far from it. Hizbollah gained a stronghold, backed by Syria and Iran. The Lebanese are powerless to confront them. Beirut has been resurrected for living, but most of it was owned by one person, George Hawi, till he was killed*. Now his son runs the business.

*Lebanese Leader Killed in Car Bombing
by Eric Weiner

Day to Day, June 21, 2005 · In the capital of Beirut, veteran Lebanese communist leader George Hawi was killed in a car bombing on Tuesday. Hawi had recently come out in support of Lebanon's anti-Syrian political alliance.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4712634

It's not all that it seems, people. As usual. Most of Lebanon is still a cover for the drug trade.

According to this link, the people deriving benefits are the Syrians, but read the link for more data. http://www.meib.org/articles/0106_l3.htm

In short, Lebanon is suffering. And it's mind boggling. There is a general feeling that attacks against the Hizbolluh are justified. But this morning, one soldier pled conscientious objection to serving. So, we're not unanimous in this.

Israel is suffering. Katyusha rockets are being used indescriminately - whole cities from the Negev north are under alert.

Our kibbutz is now hosting families from Nahariya, so they can at least live above ground as opposed to in bomb shelters.

Who wants this? Nobody. What's it good for? Hopefully, somethin.
Lebanon, please, clean up your act. Get rid of Hizbolluh and its influence.
Get rid of Syria and Iran and step up to your rightful place as an independent country.

Will any of this happen if Israel backs away or if there is an int'l corps to police a cease-fire? I'm afraid that nothing will change, except for a time-out for Hizbolluh to re-arm.

[jimboloco]

So why bomb all of Lebanon with a massive air war?
Stop bombing all of Lebanon, just stop it.
It will not resolve the situation with hezbollah.
The situation was not unbeareable before this happened.
The air campaign is bullshit.

Yes I looked up your kibbutz once, to the east of Gaza.
And the place is fairly peaceful.
Would you also advocate a massive air war into Gaza?
On what pretext should this have to happen?

And the Gazananians, the Gazaneze, should just stop voting for Hamas, and the lebanese should just stop Hezbollah.

You yourself said that Lebanon is intruded upon by Hezbolah, altho they were the effective governing body in south Lebanon. the assassinations of anti-Syrian Lebanese is noted, I was already aware about this. So how is Lebanon supposed to clean up its act and get rid of hezbollah? Ah, maybe a massive air war onto All of LebAnon will do the trickzz/


I hope things stay stable for you and for your refugees. Please know that for every one of them there are others, unseen, who are in the sharpest grief right now, numbed and doomed to despair.
For those of us who have killed, or been a part of killing, there is never any real peace, only the discipline of peacemaking. I will have PTSD forever. No doubt soo will many others, of all stripe. The world is wounded. we are walking wounded.

Can I kill? Yes without a doubt. Do I have anger. Absolutely.
would I do it? I am yeady to die at any moment.
which is why I count my breaths.

BOWS.