What am I missing here?

[bohonato]

Just my opinions on a few things, please don't stone me
1) I'm shocked at how quickly whimsicaldeb was crucified for have a different opinion than everyone else on this board. Seriously.
2) I hate how things like the Iraq War and global oppression are now excuses not to address other social ills. You don't have to pick and choose, they are all important.
3) I don't think Imus should have been fired, but what he said was inappropriate. I'm not being a word nazi, he can say what he wants, but that doesn't make it right, or less offensive. However, in my opinion, a mountain was made out of a molehill.

It was my son, who told my husband "that's your generation dad, not mine" and he's right; they've moved on already.

My friends and I always tell stories about the racist shit our grandparents and parents say and think is okay. Its really funny, in an almost sad and pathetic way.

[mnaz]

OK... let me try again.

I agree with you Deb, but I have a few questions/comments.

1) I don't recall any of us saying that what Imus said was "okay".

2) Most of us were trying to either put the incident in its proper perspective against the pressing issues/crises of our day that receive pitiful, ineffectual lip-service attention by comparison, or consider the incident as fairly as possible against the scope of Imus' career and contributions as a whole.

3) Yes, the world is changing. This does not mean that everyone is changing, or "evolving" at exactly the same speed according to some self-evident, universal set of righteous rules (defined by you, apparently), and even if it did, it does not mean, nor shall it ever mean that people at some point must be expected to be perfect and never make a mistake. In reality, the offensive word in question is all too common in hip-hop slang, and use of these types of words is hardly uncommon in the mileu of shock jock radio-- it's gone on like that for years. That doesn't make it "right", nor would I claim that repetition of any practice necessarily makes it "right", but it provides some context to call into question the sudden disproportionate tidal wave of outrage. The obvious counterpoint to your belligerent zero tolerance is something along the lines of... to err is human, but to forgive is divine, perhaps.

4) While we mulled over some of the above points, you came here like a bat out of hell and started attacking people on a very personal level-- demeaning and hurtful at times. For all of your enlightened ways, please tell us why this was necessary, and (apparently) remains so?

[stilltrucking]

Just my opinions on a few things, please don't stone me

Group minds scare the bejeezus out of me

I am not sure who is getting stoned here
and who is throwing rocks.
only thing I am sure of is that I am stoned.


It beats the hell out of me bohonato
maybe it is a chick thing?

last time WD got pissed at hester was onf the red hat ladies thread.
I never got that one either.


I don't know what the heck generation this is coming up
but they going to be in hock up their virgin assess

when the baby boomers die off
there is going to be one hell of mess to clean up.

every generation tries to do better

and seems like they screw it up more.
that's what I like about WD
she can see an upside to my doom
maybe it is a brother sister thing
we fight like cat's and dogs

I am sorry you thought WD was being cruified, that kriss k song one of my favorite trashy gospel songs, no offence intended
must have been a chick thing I didn't get

maybe it is a generational thing
all these gray haired baby boomers around here make me nervous.

I hope this is generation A plus coming up
I hope so we got to survive gen X, Y, and Z yet.

I ain'[t aware of two many things but it seems to me one person here is throwing rocks.

I should know
cause I see that mote in their eye

I suppose that is why poets need a big first aid kit. people keep throwing rocks at them.

obsidian words

and like Forest Gump said to his true love
"there are never enough rocks."

[whimsicaldeb]

Just my opinions on a few things, please don't stone me
1) I'm shocked at how quickly whimsicaldeb was crucified for have a different opinion than everyone else on this board. Seriously.
2) I hate how things like the Iraq War and global oppression are now excuses not to address other social ills. You don't have to pick and choose, they are all important.
3) I don't think Imus should have been fired, but what he said was inappropriate. I'm not being a word nazi, he can say what he wants, but that doesn't make it right, or less offensive. However, in my opinion, a mountain was made out of a molehill.

It was my son, who told my husband "that's your generation dad, not mine" and he's right; they've moved on already.

My friends and I always tell stories about the racist shit our grandparents and parents say and think is okay. Its really funny, in an almost sad and pathetic way.

Thank you bohonato. Everything you posted. Sincerely ... thank you. I wanted to add; for the part about this thread that really matters... our past racism being ... "funny, in an almost sad and pathetic way."

Exactly. And my son says, knows and lives this as well; when he spoke and I heard and listened. To then watch Oprah and see others completely different from myself doing (having done/reached) the same ... affirming. But truth is; I didn't need the affirmation to know. I knew what was right, without that. So does everyone ... we know being called names hurts! We know.

As someone from that generation I know we don't need to be 'sad & pathetic' but we will always be that way if we don't look at all the places in our lives where we've become 'sad & pathetic' because we're unwilling to face up and let go of our old biases ... unwilling to change, move on, and let go of our past.

To see this happening on this board, and then to see know one challenging this ... I had to speak up. And yes, to be chastised and made fun of because disagree with the main opinion on a 'liberal' board; disgusting ... but I've found it par for the course. Most "liberals" aren't really as liberal as they claim or think themselves to be.

...

If I'm going to argue for anything (and I am) ... it's going to be something that's going to be good for myself as well as others ...

I'm arguing for life where people are people and not simply their labels. Where calling others names, and making fun of them (for fame or profit or any other reason) is not acceptable; not because it's politically incorrect, or because "the bible tells you not too" or because you might lose your job ... but because like me; you simply don't want to.

This is how I live my life, it's how I've always lived my life, and so I agrue for this because these are values well worth keeping because these values work for anyone/all... not just the chosen few.

...

Imus, losing his job/not losing his job. If this had been the only thing he'd said he'd probably still have his job but he has a history of saying inappropriate things and this latest was the straw that final broke the cycle. He's not a victim - or - he's the victim of his own self-created circumstances.

Hester started this thread with the question "What am I missing here?" and I (still) answer (and show) "a helluva lot!" but hopefully less now then before.

[stilltrucking]

mnaz said:

4) While we mulled over some of the above points, you came here like a bat out of hell and started attacking people on a very personal level-- demeaning and hurtful at times. For all of your enlightened ways, please tell us why this was necessary, and (apparently) remains so?

I don't understand why she comes at people like that, I have learned to shine it on.

[whimsicaldeb]

OK... let me try again.

I agree with you Deb, but I have a few questions/comments.

4) While we mulled over some of the above points, you came here like a bat out of hell and started attacking people on a very personal level-- demeaning and hurtful at times. For all of your enlightened ways, please tell us why this was necessary, and (apparently) remains so?

Mnaz, to me ... this thread, what everyone was saying and why: to me was demeaning and hurtful towards everything I've stood for and lived my life and worked for. Equality.

My replies were never just to hester, or you (though some parts were) - they're to all/each of you. Hester gets the brunt (?) because she headed up the thread; and has responded the most and with the shittiest of attitudes as well. (I don't count Jack's endless replies)

I was appalled!
And I still am.

It's a horrible feeling, I wouldn't wish it upon anyone.

No one was posting what was missing, or talking about any of the aspects of the 'bigger picture' and I was appalled not only by what was posted, but also by what wasn't. What was being left unsaid, but should have been said. Since no other usual posters to this board was providing those missing pieces ... that's why it was necessary.

As for how I posted/post: I was appalled (and still am). Those feelings effected how I responded and they clearly showed through.

Someone who had the other pieces (but not the same angst), saw the same things I did, could easily have posted in my stead and they would have posted much nicer about it all, I'm sure; but that's not what happened, so that's not how things turned out. No one else did, this thread got got me, and that is how the situation now stands.

I lost my patience over this subject matter, and then again with hester, and in turn, you've lost your patience with me.

I'm glad I've given you some things to pause and consider, some important missing other povs that can provide so much. I hope others look them over too.

[hester_prynne]

Indeed, as bonhonato said, "a mountain was made out of a molehill."
Righteousness is never useful, and it breeds contempt.
That is the glaring lesson here.......for me anyway.
H

Ps to deb:
But then again, what do I know eh Deb? I'm just a "fool and not the jester kind either". (Amongst many other insults and degrading tones from you from the very beginning of your hissy fit reaction here to a very light-intentioned thread that you took way out to outer space.)
I need, in my apparent ignorance to ask you a few questions about some of your statements quoted below:

"I personally was shocked, appalled, to come back here and see this supposed 'enlightened' group of people going on & on about this issue; both in jest and in seriousness about why it was "okay."
It's not "okay" ... it's never really been okay... and the joking around about it was a healing processes that has run it's course. And if you truly were enlightened, you'd already know this."
I don't get what you mean here Deb. Could you explain it more to my feeble mind? What exactly makes it not okay? How can I, become enlightened?

"That's why seeing you joking about this, seeing others going along continue on, making jokes about this was so appalling. Everywhere else ... it wasn't happening."
What jokes do you mean? Are you sure they were jokes? Were you intrepreting jokes? Did you ask anyone or just accuse them?

"When I explained to the people reading over my shoulder that both Jack and Cecil were white males in his 60's and further that Cecil and Soozen lived in Texas ... well the response was 'knowing grins" all around."

I don't get the knowing grins. What do I not "know" here? I adore Jack, Cec and Sooz and respect very much their opinion and take on things.
Please explain.

"But you Hester ... everyone just shook their heads in bewilderment."
(Deb, people often do this to me, what's your point here?)

"You wrote about (in another thread) how guys aren't knocking on your door to ask you out and you think it's because of your weight, but it's not your weight; it's because of things like this. Joking about things that aren't funny. Being a smart ass, poor-me, victim ... that's what's doing it."

Could you elaborate further on what you mean here? Was I joking or in earnest? Did you take the time to really read me? How do you know I am a smart ass, poor-,me victim? This sounds like a stereo-type bias of yours.

"We're not friends, we've never been friends; that's no secret to either one of us (or those who've paid attention on this board); so what."

C'mon Deb, please stop you're harping on this. It's really gross.
Bleah,
H

[whimsicaldeb]

... oh please.
Get there, already.

[jimboloco]

What amazes me is that anyone thought this would be a "light hearted issue"
to everyone else

I am glad the Iman is gone
gone and glad

I am a cancer nurse
but I don't engage in racial taunting while at work
It might discredit my professional standing

as HST famously said'
"When the going gets wierd,
the wierd turn pro."

I saw the IMUS show many times with mixed feelings
hell, waking up is hard to do
but would have boycotted his show after that dumbass remark

So dumbass insult humor is not always well received by all parties
there ya go
and it is mountains and not molehills
when insensensitive people run the show
and it impacts on us all
so tho this thread will not go on forever
my wondering about the density
of supposedly enlightened peoples mindsets
is now a bit clearer

I grew up in an insensitive era
I went to war with an insentive president commander
dumbass LBJ
there was a cultural split
lifers and heads
lifers drank alcohol and listened to country music like Imass
heads smoked dope and listened to rock

my pilot colleagues did not care who they dropped bombbs on etc
just buy the rationale
become desensitized
I got out not only because I was sick of that tragic war
but also because I was sick oif the macho
redneck bourgeoise stamp on the every day conformist reality
including rascism
and insulting demeaning humor

so i am fed up with it
and Imus is obsolete
and moving mountains without him
moving on

[mnaz]

I don't engage in racial taunting while at work.

Two comments here:

1) This is more a sexist issue than racist, isn't it? "Ho" is the trigger word here, derived from "whore". In hiphop/ghetto slang, "ho" generally connotes a "loose", or "streetwise" woman in some way (not necessarily race-specific), and has come into more common usage in hiphop/rap culture, especially in the last 15 years or so. (I ain't too thrilled about it, so please don't shoot the messenger here). In fact, as I recall, even "play-the-field" males have been tagged as "hos" in some of the lamer hiphop "comedic" moments (the Wayans Bros. "In Living Color", perhaps, but that was a long time ago-- don't quote me) It's true that "nappy-headed" connotes African American, but this descriptive phrase isn't necessarily offensive in itself. Stevie Wonder used it in his song "I Wish", from the double album "Songs in the Key of Life" (1976), and I don't recall Al Sharpton ever blasting Stevie Wonder.

2) You're not paid to put out an edgy radio show for a niche market, as Imus was. Of course you must maintain a much stricter decorum.

as HST famously said'
"When the going gets wierd,
the wierd turn pro."

No shit. Just look at this thread.

I saw the IMUS show many times with mixed feelings hell, waking up is hard to do but would have boycotted his show after that dumbass remark

Good. As you should. As it should be. And if enough people boycotted Imus he would've been sacked anyway. And while we're on the subject of dumbass mass-media "entertainment", surely you don't think that Imus is the only one? What about Howard "Show-us-your-tits" Stern? One of his regulars is "Gary the Retard". Nice thoughtful guy, that Howard. Or what about Tom "Dump-that-bitch" Leykis? I had a roommate who listened to these two morons on the car radio while I drove him to and from work, until I finally just shut it off. It's all too often sophomoric, offensive, lowest-common-denominator stuff, and whatever "shock entertainment" value may exist therein can wear thin or become downright tedious for "discerning" listeners.

And then there's cable TV, with the likes of Dave Chappelle (the N-word, repeatedly) and Carlos Mencia (Mexican racial slurs, repeatedly). Should they all be fired for using traditionally offensive, demeaning words in catering to their niche "shock comedy" markets?

so tho this thread will not go on forever

Don't count on it.

my wondering about the density of supposedly enlightened peoples mindsets is now a bit clearer

Me too.

Lordy.

[whimsicaldeb]

Two comments here:

1) This is more a sexist issue than racist, isn't it? "Ho" is the trigger word here, derived from "whore". In hiphop/ghetto slang, "ho" generally connotes a "loose", or "streetwise" woman in some way (not necessarily race-specific), and has come into more common usage in hiphop/rap culture, especially in the last 15 years or so. (I ain't too thrilled about it, so please don't shoot the messenger here). "Nappy-headed" indeed connotes African American, but this descriptive phrase isn't necessarily offensive in itself. Stevie Wonder used it in his song "I Wish", from the double album "Songs in the Key of Life" (1976), and I don't recall Al Sharpton ever blasting Stevie Wonder.

No, it's both together, and then even more then that ...

Listen to Maya Angelou ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbESScO01fI
Listen to the women from Spellmen College ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiSp9l_B ... ed&search=

There's a lot going on here of the which the first part is accountability of our own responsibilities for our own words and actions and remembering our history ~ across the board; all colors sexes etc. - everyone; everywhere.

2) You're not paid to put out an edgy radio show for a niche market, as Imus was. Of course you must maintain a much stricter decorum.

That's the second issue: why are we continuing to allow people to make money, and claim their fame etc., from degrading people?

If you look underneath many of these situation the first thing you find are older white males in charge of the organizations that are running these shows. CBS, ABC, NBC, FOX etc; all older white males. They pick the shows that stay on the air, they pick the announcers ... and many of them 'don't get it' either. What's the big deal about calling a women a whore; what's the big deal about calling a woman of color 'a nappy headed' anything. What's the big deal about any (white) male in a position of power and authority calling people women names, and other (white) males in positions of even greater power and authority saying 'hey' this is great - lets put it on the air: it'll bring us big bucks and good rates.

These are not 'mole-hills' ... they are moutians: until you've learned about the subject and have begun doing things about it.

As a women, I need to stay aware of the issues involving all women, and as a I white women I have no place going into the black community and telling them how they should be living their lives; but do in my own 'white' community. So it's both at once, not one or the other. And they're right (and I knew this already) ... bringing the situation up; keeping it up; and making and keeping people as uncomfortable as I possible can regarding this situation is doing what's necessary because otherwise it's too easy to fall back into the comfort of keep turning a deaf ear, and a blind eye to the greater situations happening around 'us' are our personal responsibilities in/with it.

Regarding the hip-hop/gangster issue: (which is part of this)

IMO: Many of the edgy hip-hop songs/gangster things have run their "main-stream" course and are now headed into the same category as porn. People like Howard Stern, you have to go out of your way and pay to listen too; he's still freely expressing himself, but if you want to hear him you have to go to a special place and buy the show. That way if you want to support his style; then support it but if you don't want to support that style, you don't have to. Just like porn, it's still out there; but not main-stream, not public. IMO - that'd be the best of the situation.

And that means saying to everyone I meet that people like Imus; Ann Coulter etc., clean up your mouth and act or lose your job. Stop joking and making light of things that are important to other people and stop dissing people just because they don't share your opinions. (and yes, that part includes Hester and this thread)

What is that Common said (in the second video clip) "Those that know better should do it..." I agree.

Where I've lost my patience is with those that claim they don't know better but actually do. And with those that do this stuff just because they can, because they know how hard it is for others to step up and say 'no' 'stop' etc. - so they continue to push the limit and take advantage of others for as long as they can. ~ick!~

...


(hmmmm....) Which goes back to those on this board who could have spoken up about all this and shared things about this subject better than I can and did ... if you could have, and if you can - then please DO IT! Stop pointing your fingers at how bad I was/am and instead; Step up and take over.

I won't mind a bit.

[bohonato]

Oh man, I really didn't want to post on this thread again, but I feel like I have to.

When I heard about the Imus thing (whom I don't listen to and could really care less about), I though nappy was way worse then ho. Mainly because it was a qualifier? Like, a ho is bad, but a <i>nappy-headed</i> ho, that's worse. I would never call anyone a ho outside of my friends, who would know I was kidding. And a white man refering to a black woman as a ho is dangerous territory anyway. I would agree, however, that nappy-headed, by itself, isn't inherently racist. It was the use of nappy-headed. For an example, since we're talking about comedy and entertainment, take Condoleeza Rice (since I don't think there's any risk of anyone here liking her):

If I said Condoleeza is a ho, it would be borderline, but kind of amusing.

If I said Condoleeza is a nappy-headed ho, well, no. Cause like I said before, its suggesting that a black ho is worse than a ho. There's really no reason for using that adjective unless you are deliberately pointing on someone's racial identity. And there is a huge difference between a white person saying that and a black person, but that would take too much time to go into, and should be self-evident (though I'm not saying it's right to say it, but in terms on how people will react).

I don't like Carlos Mencia at all, he annoys me much like Dane Cook, so I won't waste my time defending him. I would disagree about placing Dave Chapelle in the shock comedy corner. True he does use the n-word, but he also has a sublety and intelligence lacking in Mencia or Stern.

And while I'm at it, I might as well answer the original question. Outside of the comment being superficially sexist and racist, women's professional sports teams are rarely taken seriously by the mainstream. Because men's sport's teams make more money, they are catered to. This is slowly changing, and indeed was huge when women athletes were given the opportunity to compete professionally. In referring to the two NCAA teams that made it to the championship in such a manner, by a white male, it was a dismissal of all the work that it took to get there. The world of sports is definitely one in which male values uber alles, and that using nappy-headed, as aforementioned, was just unnecessary. Though I also think it would be wise to remember that Imus wasn't the real problem, just the symptom.

[whimsicaldeb]

No, it's both together, and then even more then that ...

Listen to Maya Angelou ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbESScO01fI
Listen to the women from Spellmen College ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiSp9l_B ... ed&search=

Wanted to add: and also listen to the women themselves ...

Coach Stringer, the woman who helped the Rutgers players overcome obstacles at the start of the season, is now stepping up to defend her team.

She says that these young ladies are not "hos," as Imus called them. In fact, she says they are future doctors, musical prodigies, valedictorians and leaders. "These young ladies embody all of what we would hope young people [would become]," she says.

Kia Vaughn, a sophomore on the team, says she was shocked and upset when she heard Imus's remarks. "Unless 'ho' was given a new definition, then that's not who I am," she says. "That's not part of my characteristics or anything of the sort."

The controversial comment also stole the players' moment of joy, says Essence Carson, the team's captain. "We came back from Cleveland hoping to be embraced with warm hearts," she says. "As soon as that moment seemed like it was at its peak, it seemed like the world came down on us to be the focal point of such a remark. It is just so sad because no one pays attention to who actually won the game."

Coach Stringer says the support of the American people has helped her team during this difficult time, but Imus's remarks have affected more than just the players on the team. "Not only did he steal our dreams, he's hurt us tremendously, hurt our character," she says. "[He also hurt] Rutgers University, our state and certainly all [of us] who have been associated [with the comment], as well as our future recruiting."

Source: http://www.oprah.com/tows/slide/200704/ ... _102.jhtml

A 66 year old male sports announcer (that's what he is - a 66 year old white male sports announcer - not a 30 year old black comedian) misused his power and authority when he demeaned a group of young women basketball players and lost his job.

Good... okay; sound fair & just to me.

[jimboloco]

1) This is more a sexist issue than racist, isn't it?

This is an absurd remark, MNAZ jazz in yer brain

as Deb says, both part and parcel of the same problem, degrading debasing attiitudes
and in THIS case, both racist and sexist.

As far as the decisions by MSNBC and CBS to fire IMUS, well, hell, man,
if ya got the balls to shut off yer rider's radio morons, then what is wrong with Sharpton protesting IMORON's show to shut it off, and what is wrong with the media companies firing him?

As I said before, the ingrained densities we got witnin our complacent conformist old school painted psyches has gotta be exposed and all this hoopla about how it "wasn't that bad" is just that bullshit cracker mentality still dormant in our macho lily-white lizard brains from many generations of social conditiioning floating to the surface, much lke putrid fecal matter floating to the top of the cesspool, and that also includes white assed chicks who think they are somehow not that demeaned by all of this.

On a lighter note, on my cancer unit, where I am one of two male nurses,
several years ago we decorated the doors of the rooms, and on the door of room number 968, we had our "HO" door, designed by Luisa (D.) Light, a door with "HO" "HO" "HO" HO" all over it, various creative laughing "HO's" HO HO HO in that shiney metallic paper green and candy cane etc on a metallic red paper foil style covering over the door. It was a joke that was both humorous, spirited, in season, and also kinda kinky.
But nobody ever called Luisa a "ho".

One of our charge nurses is lesbian, has a long term partner, who I recently met along with their cute little adopted daughter from Guatemala.
Being axposed to her over the years has been a wonderful way for me to continue the deprogramming of my own sufferred old school tapes, thru diirect positive experience, as well as my exposure to African Americans and Latinos, awesome deprogramming of deep negative messages learned from birth through a segregated lily white childhood.

Kudos to Bonohato for his clarity in distinguishing between the level of cultural-intellectual competance of Dave Chapelle and Don Imus, as well as the type of show and situation.

Deb ain't so whimsy afterall.

As far as this inter-personal infighting, well, mercy, as I said before, shit floats to the top of the cesspool.

[bohonato]

As I said before, the ingrained densities we got witnin our complacent conformist old school painted psyches has gotta be exposed and all this hoopla about how it "wasn't that bad" is just that bullshit cracker mentality still dormant in our macho lily-white lizard brains from many generations of social conditiioning floating to the surface, much lke putrid fecal matter floating to the top of the cesspool.

Jimboloco, thank-you.