The Creationist Museum in Louisville, KY

[mousey1]

Well, edog, less is definitely more in your instance.

I don't know why I didn't just say that!

Concise, man, that's where it's at.

[stilltrucking]

I believe in the mystery
I dread people who cannot abide the mysterious
people who have no curiosity
That is what creationism is all about if you ask me.
For those who can not stand not knowing
For those who need certainty.
A story for aging children.
who have grown up to be zombies
For those who believe in the word not the spirit
No metaphors for me thank you very much.

What I believe?


It's never over till it’s over

And there is always one more fat lady
Who will sing her song.

And every time the universe goes bust
Till the next big bang
tHere we go
One more go around


Just life
Is miraculous enough for me
It’s been a wonderful life.
I am a fortunate son

“What I Believe,” “The most beautiful emotion we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our minds cannot grasp, whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly: this is religiousness. In this sense, and in this sense only, I am a devoutly religious man.”
Einstein and the Mind of God

Douglas adams wrote that everything mankind has every believed in is still true
long after we have needed to believe in it.

[mtmynd]

Arcadia, amiga mia, thank you for your most interesting reply. I find it interesting because of the things you wrote about with your students, especially this: "the Mayan myth... they couldn't avoid to say.... wow!! it´s similar to the bible so..?!!"

All the various beliefs you listed out of different religions are (rightfully?) called 'myths' but the biblical story, which is taken as complete and indisputable truth by the evangelical, pentecostal-types (including those that mnaz listed, which I found startling!).

Apparently, to those extreme Christians, the bible has no 'myth-tical' quality whatsoever - each and every word is (English word, i might add, as King James was responsible for giving the Greek/Hebrew translations of books he chose/authorized without any questioning), to be taken as if this (or that) is exactly what was during the times the Bible speaks of. And to add insult to the intellect, anyone that does question the words from the Bible are somehow going to Hell by God Himself!

To me, this is so extremely Un-God-like that I feel a great deal of compassion for those that cannot or will not accept that 'God' lives within each and every living thing within the known and unknown universe, through which we are all connected.

mousey-one... you asked: "And what do you believe?" I took that question as a general question for any readers, but my answer is within the last line of the previous paragraph above.

mousey-one, my friend, I must add that your reply was so honest and filled with a child-like innocence, that it stirred my emotions. It was wonderful that you were so honest and sincere about the things you wrote about, sharing them with all the readers. Few if any of us could do that.

You touched upon so many things that right now I'm unable to respond as I would like to. I assure you I will... hopefully with the same honest-ness with which you wrote. Thank you!

[mtmynd]

Wow, truck! Just read your poem. It snuck in just before I replied and I almost missed it.

Mighty fine piece! And a great quote from Einstein... one that I can certainly relate to. Thanks!

[Arcadia]

I already know what you said, Cecil. Most of us look at those myths nowadays with other eyes, we don´t believe it literally but they are still powerful and some of them beautiful relatos. What I try with the kids is that they enjoy and know them as relatos. It´s more difficult to became a fanatic if you know and love other traditions and stories.
One point that´s interesting too is that science is also made by words.
Anyway, the myth thing and the chapter about the first humans have to stop today for a while: a police shot and killed last thursday at midday a 25 years old boy (a block from the school, in front of his house) for "personal reasons". The vecinos burned his home (he is also a vecino...), and wanted also to destroy the comisaría that is located two blocks from that... most of the kids saw the cadaver, or was a friend of the brothers´s killed boy or was involved or saw the things that happened after that during the weekend. The kids were very euphoric today. We only tried to listen and talk in Language class.

[mousey1]

Thank you mt. I'll look forward to seeing more.

Closed minds are very ugly. Many so-called Christians of today should strap bags on their heads...if you know what I mean.

[mtmynd]

Hi mousey-one... I didn't forget you.

You wrote: "Like, I don't really know how it goes, but it seems to me God is the creator of we human beings. As far as dinosaurs, well I don't know who created them, but I've seen their bones so know they did exist."

My early religious learnings were that God was omnipotent, all powerful and as Genesis put it - "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth," and all things including Light. But, if I read you correctly, you say "God is the creator of we human beings," which sounds as if your saying solely we humans. And even though Genesis says it includes all living things, wouldn't this God also have created dinosaurs millions of years ago?

...and you wrote: "Going by a few Bible hints it appears there are such things as angels, cherubim and seraphim, other Godly cohorts, ghosts and after-life's and before-life's."

Having never seen, heard or sensed any angels, I can only say I believe some people believe in angels... my FIL included. I think it's a neat thing that people feel they have their own angels as protectors. Why not? As far as ghosts... there are many who believe in them and would swear they've encountered them. There are probably just as many, if not more, people that believe in aliens from other planets. Whose to say?

Re: "after-life's and before-life's." I've never heard that said in the Biblical context. Could you give me a reference to go by? This belief has a reincarnation feel to which is something that is accepted by Buddhists, Tibetan in particular who choose their next Lama from a child who they feel strongly was from the lineage in a past life.

As far as reincarnation is concerned, personally I have no recollection of not being here... alive, breathing. I have not always been Cecil, as I am now, but this thing we call 'Life" is something within me that I strongly feel has been with 'me' far longer than Cecil has or will be. So when you said, "so it appears our 'spirit' if you will, originated somewhere else before popping into my and everyone else's individual skins," I will agree with that statement.

mousy-one: "We are creatures of light given a chance to live mortally."

Light cannot be a creature. Two different things. However all creatures are living because of Light... even those creatures that live far below the oceans where sunlight never reaches. This Light that I speak of could easily be analogous to the word 'God.' Not only do we humans live a mortal life, but all life is mortal, i.e., subject to death - the absence of the life force within that which once was, before the life force moved out of that which was once alive. I don't understand why in the English language, 'mortals' refer only to humans.

mousy-one: "Could it be that the earth due to a destructive asteroid or whatever the scientists believe caused the demise of the dinosaur et al, had made the world void of life, the atmosphere shot..."

Would not this way of thinking betray what Genesis stated (in part) - 1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3. And God said, Let there be light: 2 Cor. 4.6 and there was light.
4. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

You also wrote: "God does not have to be responsible for the creation of everything everywhere, only of we earthlings so... "
If God created all this, wouldn't it follow that is was God himself that allowed the asteroids to smash mercilessly into the earth thereby destroying this life that He created and not a God that later saw this destroyed planet and said: "I will place different species of Life on this planet since there's nothing going on here"?

Regarding your addition: Genesis: "God, who himself refers to himself as a we when he said 'Let us create man in our image, after our likeness..'"

If we take the literal English translation, this would mean 'God' is multiple, 'our.' Odd given the fact that the major religions of world ask their followers to accept monotheism, One God. But given the reality of how we humans may explain and understand 'God' it appears that there are more than one God. Judaism, Christianity, Muslim... no matter the religion each has branches that attempt to explain the root system that sustains the varying religions by expressing God differently.

My friend, mousey-one, you also wrote:
1. I don't know.
2. It all sounds far out and spacey indeed, but yet not so really...
3. Of course I could be on crack and whistling through my ass again.
but you settled down and ended with -
"Nothing I believe is actually chiseled in the stone of my brain. I am constantly reassessing."

Do you think that there are many Christians that think similar to you? There seems to be some doubting on your part given the lines I quoted. If we are to make the assumption that there are millions of Christians that have these same types of ideas in some form or another, that would indicate to me that there must be several self-doubting believers that try to adjust their beliefs to fit the ideas of their religion. (BTW: this is also more than likely within other religions also... not to be exclusive in my opinion!)

O! your sentence: "Though it makes more sense to me than thinking all life evolved from an amoeba crawling up outta the muck. Maybe dinosaurs originated by crawling up outta the muck billions of years ago, but I doubt that I, or even you for that matter, did."

I don't think this evolution thing is very well understood by you (and many like you), Science has never said stated we humans "originated by crawling up outta the muck billions of years ago..." but rather life upon the earth, our terra firma, originated from the seas. As we, you and me, originated within the seas of our mother's womb, we set forth upon this earth and evolved into what we are today... thinking, questioning adult human beings that share a very similar DNA with the chimpanzee. I don't believe this is coincidental by any means but rather an inherent need for the human (the naked ape) to "replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." Having dominion over the earth is our ability (and not a select few of us), to provide a 'Garden of Eden" for all life including our own. (if you follow the Bible literally...)

One last thing I'd like to add - I'm not against anyone that believes in (a) God or a religion, but disappointed by those that limit their questioning ability to place common sense, logic and an open mind behind the fear mongering rantings of radical preachers and priests who have no credentials to hold sway over those that blindly follow their words. But then again that may be the dark side to religions, which I feel is un-godly and sinful.

Thx, mousey-one, for getting this far. I hope I made some sense... I must go to sleep now.

[mousey1]

Beings of light might be a bit more concise to what I mean. I suppose that's the thing about writing what one believes, one needs to choose each word carefully and I am not always good at that...I, um, like to write with a bit of flare...or try to, and sometimes that outweighs and even detracts from my meaning. So, I'll try to write sticking to straight talk.

Of course you know, the thing about belief is, it's just that... belief. Being a Christian, any religious person, requires faith...sometimes that takes the form of blind faith. Unquestioning faith. For me, trusting that there's a higher power that knows and cares for me, that ultimately has charge of the situation, is enough to carry me through most things. Though of course I do get angry and rant and rail at all the seeming injustices.

Now to touch on some of your points.

My early religious learnings were that God was omnipotent, all powerful and as Genesis put it - "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth," and all things including Light. But, if I read you correctly, you say "God is the creator of we human beings," which sounds as if your saying solely we humans. And even though Genesis says it includes all living things, wouldn't this God also have created dinosaurs millions of years ago?

Well first off let me say I don't sit and think on these things all that much. But I do wonder from time to time how creation fits into things given the fact that dinosaurs existed millions of years ago. Let's face it something doesn't quite mesh. So I'm merely trying to piece together a possible scenario that can support what Genesis says. In trying to do that it seems plausible to me that after the event that brought an end to the dinosaur, perhaps for a time the world was void of life and darkness covered the face of the earth. Perhaps it was during this time "God" stepped in and Genesis began. How can I know. I'm no scientist driven to get to the bottom of things, yet I would like to know the answer and believe that one day I will.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

—1 Corinthians 13:12

There is much that appears to be unexplained, one does at some point fall back on faith to carry them through. Much of the Bible's true meanings are perhaps lost in translation, much of the Bible's descriptions of things and events are written using terms and visuals that people living in those times could understand and reading it now there is tendency to take it literally, but taking into account what we know now I think that taking everything completely literally is perhaps misleading. No Theologian am I, I've read the Bible through once, with a bit of skimming here and there. I do believe there is much to be gleaned from the Bible and that one must read it with an open and seeking heart and true wish for enlightenment. Unfortunately I'm a lazy Christian who fails to take the time to sit and contemplate over the greatest book ever written. I pick up dribs and drabs of information from people who have studied it and if what they say portends to make sense to me I'll accept its plausibility.

In a bit of an aside, there are some people that assert that the Bible contains codes within its texts that reveal startling revelation or that is a bit more specific regarding past prophecy. Though that has a bit of a feel of word manipulation to it, for I suppose one could take anything written and find hidden messages that make sense in hindsight. Still it is something to think about.

...and you wrote: "Going by a few Bible hints it appears there are such things as angels, cherubim and seraphim, other Godly cohorts, ghosts and after-life's and before-life's."

Having never seen, heard or sensed any angels, I can only say I believe some people believe in angels... my FIL included. I think it's a neat thing that people feel they have their own angels as protectors. Why not? As far as ghosts... there are many who believe in them and would swear they've encountered them. There are probably just as many, if not more, people that believe in aliens from other planets. Whose to say?

Well, it speaks of ghosts in the Bible.

an example: I Samuel 28:15, where Saul has a medium, "call up" the prophet Samuel from the other side of the grave:

"And Samuel saith to Saul, Why hast thou troubled me, to bring me up?"

It speaks of Angels.

This link provides instances of where in the Bible Angels are mentioned and appears to discuss them quite sensibly. http://www.christiananswers.net/q-acb/acb-t005.html

I suppose because I tend to give the Bible alot of weight and trust that the basics of what it says are true I therefore tend to take these things as...well...um...gospel. Therefore that is enough evidence for me that they do indeed exist. Our little realm of reality and fleshly existence is not the only realm.

Re: "after-life's and before-life's." I've never heard that said in the Biblical context. Could you give me a reference to go by? This belief has a reincarnation feel to which is something that is accepted by Buddhists, Tibetan in particular who choose their next Lama from a child who they feel strongly was from the lineage in a past life.

As far as reincarnation is concerned, personally I have no recollection of not being here... alive, breathing. I have not always been Cecil, as I am now, but this thing we call 'Life" is something within me that I strongly feel has been with 'me' far longer than Cecil has or will be. So when you said, "so it appears our 'spirit' if you will, originated somewhere else before popping into my and everyone else's individual skins," I will agree with that statement.

"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us."

Ecclesiastes 1:9-10

I suppose I am guilty of reading too much into the above Bible quote. I take, perhaps too literally that "there is no new thing under the sun. Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new?". Well, that would include me, the essence of me, and you Cec, the essence of you. I am me and always will be, no matter what new form I might take, this "inner" me is still me no matter what I look like. I don't think anywhere in the Bible does it actually say reincarnation, but to me at least, there are certainly hints about something similar to it.

I suppose my best example would be Jesus himself. Jesus is an example of an old spirit in a new baby. Yes? Well, now, maybe that's an extreme example, but it shows pretty clearly, to me at least, that a spirit that existed before with prior "experience" shall we say, inhabited this wee babe. One might say, "Well yes, but this was the Holy Spirit, entirely different.", well I'm not so sure it is different at all.

And then of course there's the "Holy Ghost" spoken of which we apparently all can share in. What's that all about? A piece of the whole spread out amongst all. Well, I don't know, but I believe it, perhaps that is where prior common knowledge comes from. Though apparently you have to ask for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

mousy-one: "We are creatures of light given a chance to live mortally."

Light cannot be a creature. Two different things. However all creatures are living because of Light... even those creatures that live far below the oceans where sunlight never reaches. This Light that I speak of could easily be analogous to the word 'God.' Not only do we humans live a mortal life, but all life is mortal, i.e., subject to death - the absence of the life force within that which once was, before the life force moved out of that which was once alive. I don't understand why in the English language, 'mortals' refer only to humans.

See my opening lines above. 'Beings of light' I should have said, though 'creatures' can have a similar meaning to what I meant.

'Mortals' to me refers to all things living, all things subject to 'death'. We are mortal but that doesn't mean our inner essence is mortal right? There is more to all of us than completely meets the eye.

mousy-one: "Could it be that the earth due to a destructive asteroid or whatever the scientists believe caused the demise of the dinosaur et al, had made the world void of life, the atmosphere shot..."

Would not this way of thinking betray what Genesis stated (in part) - 1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3. And God said, Let there be light: 2 Cor. 4.6 and there was light.
4. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

You also wrote: "God does not have to be responsible for the creation of everything everywhere, only of we earthlings so... "
If God created all this, wouldn't it follow that is was God himself that allowed the asteroids to smash mercilessly into the earth thereby destroying this life that He created and not a God that later saw this destroyed planet and said: "I will place different species of Life on this planet since there's nothing going on here"?

Regarding your addition: Genesis: "God, who himself refers to himself as a we when he said 'Let us create man in our image, after our likeness..'"

If we take the literal English translation, this would mean 'God' is multiple, 'our.' Odd given the fact that the major religions of world ask their followers to accept monotheism, One God. But given the reality of how we humans may explain and understand 'God' it appears that there are more than one God. Judaism, Christianity, Muslim... no matter the religion each has branches that attempt to explain the root system that sustains the varying religions by expressing God differently.

I've thrown a few thoughts out there. I don't know. Perhaps 'God' is an omnipotent 'species'. He says, 'we' 'us', perhaps that's just the way the dude talks. I do think though that in Judaism, Christianity, the Muslim faith, etc. that it is the same God, just twisted to fit man's ideas and ideals. Man is certainly not averse to misinterpretation and even downright manipulation to meet his own ends and means, whether through innocence, ignorance or self-determination. I try as best as my mortal human self can grasp these things, but more than that I try to simply trust in that wee small something inside that lets me 'feel' there is so, so, so very much more. One day we shall all see that big picture...perhaps we'll laugh together at our own follies of thought.

I do feel I must point out that there is evil. There is evil entity. The devil, satan, lucifer, beelzebub, whatever name you want to put to it. We only skim the surface here in our discussions. Forces of evil do play a huge part in todays state of man. I don't know enough about anything to say anything for a certainty, but I know there is evil in the world and the capabilities for being mislead in all things, in all our beliefs, is extreme.

My friend, mousey-one, you also wrote:
1. I don't know. Rolling Eyes
2. It all sounds far out and spacey indeed, but yet not so really...
3. Of course I could be on crack and whistling through my ass again.
but you settled down and ended with -
"Nothing I believe is actually chiseled in the stone of my brain. I am constantly reassessing."

Do you think that there are many Christians that think similar to you? There seems to be some doubting on your part given the lines I quoted. If we are to make the assumption that there are millions of Christians that have these same types of ideas in some form or another, that would indicate to me that there must be several self-doubting believers that try to adjust their beliefs to fit the ideas of their religion. (BTW: this is also more than likely within other religions also... not to be exclusive in my opinion!)

I would not say 'doubting' necessarily, though there are of course times when one does entertain doubts, but more so I would say questioning...full of questioning, trying to reason things out. And yes, plenty of unsurety, that is why one has to ultimately rest on some sort of faith. Faith that what God says must be true and somehow it all makes sense, tis just that we humans with all our humanness can't, quite often, see past our own noses to a far greater picture than the human experience can, as yet, know and truly comprehend...well, it seems at least most of us anyway. Many so-called Religious folk are of the mind, do as I say not as I do. Well geez, let hypocrisy reign eh? Lead by example not by bombastic sense of superiority and the notion that one is a step above. Show by example. We are human, we do screw-up, so what's with all the judgmental crappola they speweth forth! It is not up to 'us', we humans to judge our fellow man...it is up to God and frankly I trust in his wisdom far surpassing our own puny understandings. God knows the big picture, he knows the true heart, the true soul, the deepest inner 'we'. He is not unforgiving and allows plenty of opportunity and guidance for the changing and betterment of ourselves. If we entertain what we know to be evil than we have chosen our bedfellows, if we refuse to change our ways so then should God take us in anyway, forgive us though we have not asked for it, do not welcome it, do not believe? Each must answer their own questions may be.

In closing and just by way of further explanation...

I kind of like the example...

2 Peter: 3:8 KJV: But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Time to us is measured in seconds, to God it appears it may be measured in thousands of years. We think of time in piddling fashion whereas God sees time in grandeur. How can we begin to attempt to fathom such as this? Well, with God all things are possible. And that I truly believe.




And thank you so much, mt, for taking the time to 'hear' me and for taking the time to respond. I quite dislike going to a lot of trouble to respond to posts only to have them sit seemingly totally ignored. Very off putting that. Thank you again so much.

Anyway, so am I to understand that you don't 'as such' believe in an omnipotent being who is originator of 'we'?

[hester_prynne]

Still truck said
"And there is always one more fat lady
Who will sing her song."
Hester answers:
"You rang?"


I believe that anything is possible, but I certainly do not know how we were created. I mean, many theories seem feasible. No one can really know for sure.
People can put their faith in whatever they want. Faith is the beauty, the religion. Faith has nothing to do with being righted or wronged.
I certainly don't want anyone to be thinking they can dictate faith, by rule, persuasion, or any kind of old, worn out, conditioned pressure, under the guise of "tradition".
My two cents,
H

[stilltrucking]

I think izzy nailed it when she said a bad explanation is better than no explanation. As a species we are very fond of explaining things.



Me? I got my own
Personal Jesus
Johnny Cash
I can not turn my back on him
cause I owe him a night's sleep




It is all well and good to talk about this when I am feeling fat and sassy, but I know I don't have much integrity, if I was in excruciating pain right now I would be calling out for Jesus and sister morphine in a heart beat.

But right now I believe in Spinoza's god.

Whatever He is.
I beleive in the power of myth. I think joe campbell was right.
Be He meat, myth, or metaphor Jesus is just all right with me. He got me through a bad night better than thoughts of suicide and self pity could.
But I won't never call myself a christian.

I agree with Nietzsche, there was only one christian
And I think he is now president of the united states.



Mousey1 I am going with the faith of a heretic. I know what is at stake.
I think e-dog said that the Bible is like the Norton Anthology of Religion. A collection of myths from the ancient near east. (RE: Genisis and Tiamat)*

An Anthropologist Looks at the Judeo-Christian Scriptures .



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3. The Creation: The Ancient Semitic Cosmology
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Semitic Cosmology and its Sumerian Origins

(The Baal Cycle, Tablet III, Column 3). The post-Babylonian Exile Elohist authors incorporated this war between God and the waters of chaos into the first chapter of Genesis, which begins by describing the chaotic conditions before Elohim created the sky and the earth: "the earth was formless [Hebrew, tohuw] and void [Hebrew, bohuw] and darkness covered the face of the deep [Hebrew, tehom], while a wind [Hebrew, ruach] from Elohim swept over the face of the waters." Here we find Elohim at war with Tiamat, her name represented by the Hebrew cognate Tehom, the "Deep" and with her minions, the great dragons (Hebrew tannin) that constantly stirred restlessly within its depths. In Psalms 74:13 Elohim, subdues the dragons of the deep and kills Leviathan, much as Marduk kills Tiamat and Kingu: "Yet Elohim my King is from old, working salvation in the earth. You divided Yam by your might; you broke the heads of the dragons in the waters. You crushed the heads of Leviathan; you gave him as food for the creatures of the wilderness" (Psalms 74:13-14). It should be noted that in verse 13 of this last quotation, the common English rendition of "You divided the sea" adds the article "the", which is absent in the Hebrew. The absence of the definite article is consistant with the proper name of the Semitic sea god Yamm (rather than "the ocean" as a generic term) being the reference of this verse. ). Though phrased in the future tense as a prophesy, the killing of Leviathan by Yahweh in Isaiah 27:1 is even more reminiscent of Marduks cutting Tiamat assunder: "On that day Yahweh with his cruel and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will kill the Dragon that is in the sea". Here the "Dragon" is Tanniyn, the Hebrew version of the name of Tunnan who was bound by Baal). The Babylonian wind deity, Imhullu, appears as Ruach, the Divine Wind, which translators have sometimes rendered as "the Spirit of God". The post-Exile writers also refer to God's victories over the allies of Tehom: "By his power he stilled the Sea; by his understanding he struck down Rahab [another Canaanite name for Tiamat]. By his wind the heavens were made fair; his hand pierced the fleeing serpent" (Job 26:12-13); "Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces, who pierced the Dragon [Hebrew, Tanniyn, i.e., Canaanite's Tunnan]?" (Isaiah 51:9),

http://cc.usu.edu/~fath6/worldview.html

*
"Genesis and Ancient Near Eastern Stories of Creation and Flood",
> > > in R. Hess and D. Tsumura (eds.), "I Studied Inscriptions from
> > > before the Flood" (p. 31):
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-he ... 29055.html

ps
Hester I always thought of you as zoftig.

[Arcadia]

interesting...! in these lands most of the people at critic moments use to claim to sister morphine and mother Mary, it seems Jesus is not so good for that.
mmm... I´m only more or less sure about sister morphine... (even tough its side effects...)

[stilltrucking]

Freud refused morphine up to the last day of his life. He did not want to cloud his mind. He wanted clarity so he could continue his work. But one day the pain became too much and he asked his doctor for a fatal dose.

I watched the History of the Inquisition on public television last week. One heretic was so dangerous they decided to boil him alive in a mixture of vinegar, oil, and tar. They put him in a huge kettle and started a fire under it. They say he died with dignity. Never once cried out. Just kept on praying... Everyone was impressed.


If you believe in psychic pain
jesus is a fine opiate for that.
for me anyway.

I like the idea of escaping death, that Jesus will carry my soul away a half hour before the devil knows I am dead. That is a comforting thought but I am not going to count on it. I don't like the thought of my soul lounging around disembodied in some after life. Cause maybe the dead do know something.

These days it seems to make more sense to me that my body and soul are one.

and

. If body and soul are one than I think I may have to stick around for a long time after I am dead. Until the last maggot farts the last bit of me back into the cosmos. And I will speed my way back into the flux until the next time the universe goes bang. And maybe next time around all these tiny particles that make up my body will fall into place again as me and I will make better use of this precious gift of life.


surely this is all too weird

[mousey1]

http://www.radioblogclub.com/open/38163 ... ppers-Hell

[stilltrucking]

I do not believe that anybody will suffer after death nor do I wish it.

http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kaufmann.htm

[mousey1]

I like my link better, stillt, tis more sporting!

I always like to mix a little jocularity in with my preachifying...if you know what I mean.

But, I digress...

Quote:
I do not believe that anybody will suffer after death nor do I wish it.

Yes, but what suffering does this suffering entail? Is it not an eternity of unquenchable longing for that which you pant after over and above all else? You burn in hell, but is it a hell of your own making? Have you any right to complain when you made a choice and stolidly stuck to it knowing there would be possible consequence? We reap our just rewards yes? No?

I'm just sayin'.

Sure, I prefer to think God will forgive all and sundry and that every one of us shall, to coin a pretty phrase, pass through those pearly gates into glorious heavenly bliss. But in going through those pearly gates do we really want to see ol' Hitler staring us in the 'face', swapping stories of how he was just horribly misunderstood and if only he'd known better sooner well things would've been different? If he's up there, or in there, or over there, wherever 'Heaven' may be, I'm not entirely certain my goodwill would be too forthcoming, that I would be all warm and fuzzy with forgiving. (Go ahead, call me harsh, I'll bear you no grudge. )

I don't wish anyone to suffer...I truly don't. But in living and learning if we choose to go a way which we know we should not and repeatedly and unrepentantly continue on, should we not at some time suffer a consequence. You answer.

I'm all for a clean slate for everyone, but how realistic is that given some of the human shit stains that have lived and sullied their blessed gift of life?