Ethical Treatment of Your Employer -- Question

[abcrystcats]

I think Clay (LRod) hit the nail on the head:

Of course we should all do our best work

but it is unethical to give your best work and not receive just compensation

Yay. It IS unethical to do your best work and not receive JUST compensation.

The question is, WHAT is just compensation for your BEST work? You may think it's something, and your employer may think it is something else altogether.

I think the principle at work here may be "caveat emptor" -- let the buyer beware. If you are told that you will receive X compensation for X amount of work, then you know the deal, and to do anything less than X amount of work, as long as your checks come regularly, is immoral.

However, if your boss adds to, or changes, the contract, midstream, then you may make changes to your work product, as you see fit. I would not think that my boss should receive the same output for a lower salary. He's screwed, in that case.

I may place my own value on my work product, and do my best, or not, according to that valuation, but if I agree to something AT THE OUTSET I'm bound by it all the way through.

I think if you agree to a contract -- X amount of work for X amount of pay, then you are bound.

Changes after that contract is signed means both parties can expect disappointment.

[knip]

fom the perspective of leadership/management, we don't look at it in those terms...at least those of us with training and who have studied leadership/management (i doubt many smaller company managers understand management)

if one approaches these things from the perspective of X pay = X amount of work (unless a contract), then one will never get X amount of work...true leadership means getting X + 1 amount of work because the worker WANTS to give X + 1 amount of work

[Sober Duck]

I may not be the one to add input to this subject only having two perminent jobs my whole life but, in the real world the average employer is out to get the most for less. In doing so creates a greater profit margine. So you could reverse your origional question. I believe if an employee gives his or her eight hour day 100% they wouldn't last the work week. With that in mind a pace is created that apeases everyone. It may not be ethical to do so but it is a way of our society. Someone mentioned unions. Now here is a deliberate obvious example of gouging an employee by regulating work, hours and pay for the benifit of the employee and this could be viewed as not giving your all to the boss.

[firsty]

immoral? yeeks. ethics is one thing. morality is something else entirely. morality is determined by many things, but not one of them is the exchange of cash for services.

if i look up my job description on monster.com and find that i'm being paid under the average wage, does that mean i can start doing less than average work? if i find that i'm being paid more than average, does that mean my employer is a good employer?

more often than not, a wage is determined on the lowest possible price a person will accept for the position. this is based on experience and knowledge of the person, not upon his performance. 9 times out of 10, you're brought in at a lower than average wage, because you didnt have the leverage to get more.

companies are unethical in practice. people have more at stake to be both ethical and subject to the unethical practices of the company. therefore, people should not be so fucking hung up on the ethics of their job. if a company screws an employee, thats called EVERYDAY LIFE. if an employee screws a company, thats called KARMA.

[Lightning Rod]

I think that working for an hourly wage is the root of all evil

I think I was seventeen when this fact dawned on me

I was punching a time clock

it's a bad arrangement

first because it ignores the two hours of preparation and travel that you put in before you punch the clock and the travel time you spend commuting after you punch out

then you have the factor of differences in productivity from employee to employee

when I was a little league baseball player I learned this lesson

I was a short-stop and a good one. I rarely missed a ball or failed to make the play

in fact, I made it look easy. This was my problem. A coach (or an employer) wants to see you sweat.

If I can do the required work in half the time then my job becomes looking busy for the other half of the time. Looking busy is the hardest work I can imagine, and it benefits no one. I've known people whose whole job consisted of looking busy until five o'clock.

When I was about 18 (or it could have been when I heard Jim Morrison sing: "Sellin' your hours for a handful of dimes"), I swore that I would never punch another man's clock for the rest of my life. I've been quite faithful to that oath. If an employer wants to contract with me for my efforts and accomplishments, that's one thing, but my time is still my own.

There is a story about Henry Ford. Ford hired an efficiency expert to come and do time and motion studies in his factory. After walking around with his stop-watch for a few days, the efficiency expert went to Ford and said, "There is a guy in an office in the back. Every time I walk past the door, he has his feet up on the desk and he's smoking a cigar. I think you should fire him."

Ford said, "Yes, that's Bill Evans. Last year Bill had an idea that saved me 5 million dollars. That means he made me 5 million dollars. And as I recall, when he had this idea he was sitting with his feet up on the desk and smoking a cigar."

Then Ford fired the efficiency expert.

[firsty]

this is precisely why i allow joseph the tamarin to sit in the corner with his finger up his ass.

[Lightning Rod]

this is precisely why i allow joseph the tamarin to sit in the corner with his finger up his ass.

don't worry, firsty
monkeys will work for peanuts
(I think chimps are smarter and demand banannas)

[Lightning Rod]

I think that this argument can be summed up in this question:

Are you being paid for your work or for your time?

If you are being paid for your time, you are selling out and your employer is getting a bad deal.

If you are being paid for your work, both you and your employer are getting a fair shake.

[stilltrucking]

in fact, I made it look easy. This was my problem. A coach (or an employer) wants to see you sweat.

Yeah they told us down at the local "never let them see you sweat." But hard not to do on a frieght dock down in a Tennessee August.



I think this string has got something to do with office politics. What are ethical office politics. If you are a wage serf, when you punch out is your life your own. Or do you like to hang around the work place on your day's off because it is your life?

If you have not read Genesis Angels the saga of Lew Welch.
then I don't see how this could mean much to you.
Vonnegut working for the PR department at GE after the war.
Welch working for tha advertising agency in Chicago
just a working class hero from a blue collar town, singing along to union fight songs. "they say in Harlan County there are no neutrals there. You either are a union man or a thugh for J. H. Blair.

You learned early Clay, me I am a late bloomer. I never wanted to "rise from the masses, I wanted to rise with them.

I work for myself but every once in a while my company tries to put the screws to me for not being productive enough. I am always so chagrined, I say "geez I really love this job but if you got to cut me loose I fire easy. No hard feelings.

I been thinking about the woman's boss, now she has to figure out what is an ethical refference to give the fired employee. I have only caught one ejpisode of a TV show called Fire Me or something like that.

The teamster Union was good to me clay, I think if I was going to have to punch a clock it would be nice to have a union steward in the office to deal with issues like cat mentioned.

[firsty]

nearly all companies, the larger the more true this is, would be better places of ethics and efficiency if they had fewer workers making more money each. the hourly staff are usually overpaid for their time vs what they do, altho since a person's time is more valuable than is usually compensated for, no one gets a fair shake there, and salaried employees are usually underpaid for the work they do, the ideas they generate, etc.

there are of course many salaried employees who are overpaid and many hourly employees who the company takes advantage of. all in all, since the employee has more at stake than the employer, i do feel that big business is at is core unethical. nevertheless, i work for big business. why? because i need the fucking money.

[Lightning Rod]

Yes, truck

Your comments bring to mind the eternal battle between capital and labor.

It saddens me that the organized labor movement has been all but broken in this country.

Organized labor was the only check on the excesses of big capital, now we see that management is having it all their way. Pensions and benefits and work safety are all evaporating.

Where is Jimmy Hoffa when we need him?

[stilltrucking]

Where is Jimmy Hoffa when we need him?

A lot theories about that back at the frieght haulers local 557 of the International Motherhood of Brother Fukers back in B'more.

West by G-d Virginia the strongest Union state in the union. Nobody crosses a picket line in that state. Where the hell is John L Lewis when we need him. Maybe we should bring over some of those mine inspectors from Red China.

Ray Gunz and the air controls the kiss of death for organized labor. Can you imagine that there are people who want to replace that picture of the Jew Hamilon on a saw buck with his face. His face belongs on a three dollar bill

[Lightning Rod]

I think we are seeing the battle between capital and labor escalate into a world war with the advent of globalization.

Big capital has done an end run on big labor by simply going around American workers to their cheaper counterparts in Mexico and China and Taiwan and Korea.

[stilltrucking]

No not Mexico, we don't see eye to eye on Old Mexico. Good fences make good neighbors? Tell that to the Israeli's

[abcrystcats]

Wow! This topic has really taken off in the last 24 hours!

I have lots of comments, some of which may be taken as questions, if you disagree or think I am missing a piece of information:

LROD

Big capital has done an end run on big labor by simply going around American workers to their cheaper counterparts in Mexico and China and Taiwan and Korea.

That's because they CAN. IMO, if a company incorporates in the United States, has their central base of operation here, and most importantly, PAYS U.S. TAXES, then there should be a law in this country limiting them to U.S. sources of human labor. We allow corporations to take advantage of the numerous benefits of being American, without imposing any restrictions on them to benefit our economy. THAT IS WRONG.

Are you being paid for your work or for your time?

It's not an either/or question, Clay. I'm being partially paid BY THE HOUR to do work during those hours. I'm not being paid to occupy a desk, but rather to use the time productively, to benefit a small business. (The other part of my pay is based on how much new business my efforts generate, but that is not relevant. )

I think that working for an hourly wage is the root of all evil

See, here's where my experience and yours differ greatly.

I have worked for salary and I have worked for an hourly wage. On an hourly wage my earnings have been based on the company's relative NEED for my services. When they needed more service, I got paid more. I got paid time and a half. When they needed less service, I got paid my base wage -- the hourly amount X 40 hours a week. The only thing I have ever had to worry about was being a productive employee, and not a slacker, during the hours I was getting money. I can do that.

On salary? Hell, when I was paid salary, I was paid for literally thousands of hours when I sat on my butt and did NOTHING. It was disgraceful. I was bored out of my mind and my whole job was to make sure some other people on an hourly wage did theirs.

But my experience is unusual. Most people I know on salary complain that their bosses are continually adding to their job descriptions, and forcing them to work hundreds hours past the generally accepted eight, for the SAME amount of money! Either way, someone is getting screwed.

I don't care for the unpredictability of working for salary, where any new or invented emergency of the employer can lead to your spilling blood, for free, to fix it.

If I worked on salary now, believe me, the ONLY thing I'd be coming in overtime for would be things leading to SERIOUSLY lucrative commissions for me. I'd pick my battles carefully and if that wasn't OK with the employer, they could either deal with it, or I could find a new job.

Labor laws were created for a reason -- to keep people from getting worked to death and squeezed dry. Salary puts the squeeze on, big-time. Many jobs are important enough to merit payment by salary, and that's OK with me. But there are lots of jobs in the middle where it can go either way. Sales is a middle job. So are some mid-level management positions. I once did a trainee stint at Taco Bell (don't laugh). If I'd thought I could handle it, I would have been a Taco Bell manager. Taco Bell managers have to fill in for EVERY time they are shorthanded, working menial tasks until 9:00 at night, if necessary, and they get paid a SALARY. Go figure. How are you going to keep any serious worker around a Taco Bell for longer than six weeks? Now, THAT'S SLAVERY, CLAY!
Shoot me, I won't do it.

"Sellin' your hours for a handful of dimes"

It's "tradin' your hours for a handful of dimes" BTW, and you do that regardless of the circumstances -- salary or hourly -- these days.

FIRSTY

if i look up my job description on monster.com and find that i'm being paid under the average wage, does that mean i can start doing less than average work? if i find that i'm being paid more than average, does that mean my employer is a good employer?

Nah, of course not. You determine your own worth and market your skills accordingly. What you settle for is your problem, and if you check out Monster.com and decide you want to get paid more for the same job, your option is APPLYING to get that job, not screwing your current employer. You and your employer mutually agreed what you would be getting paid and what duties you would perform during the course of your eight hour day.

And many employers pay MORE but extract it from you in other ways that we on this website would not find agreeable. I worked for a major insurance company for 16 years. It was a peachy job in the 90s, but by the time the century turned, it was like working in a peneteniary. Your every MOVE was watched and analyzed. They hadn't installed cameras (yet) but they didn't need to because the corporate spies were legion. Don't get me started.

more often than not, a wage is determined on the lowest possible price a person will accept for the position. this is based on experience and knowledge of the person, not upon his performance. 9 times out of 10, you're brought in at a lower than average wage, because you didnt have the leverage to get more.

Yeah, you're right. And this is where good old arrogance and bravado and confidence will get you EVERYWHERE in many situations.

But, if the employer has a vision of what you will do for him or her, and the work product ends up not matching the vision, you could STILL be out of a job, at the end of the day. Most employers are not going to pay you an exagerrated wage indefinitely just because you strutted your stuff in an interview. My friend BJ strutted her stuff in her interview, and she had strut to stuff, because of her operations background at the company. The hot second her sales fell off the mark, her job was in jeopardy. She chose not to make a snappy comeback. She chose to sink further, and she got canned. It's NOT ALL IMAGE. Getting a high profile job and maintaining one are two totally different things.

if a company screws an employee, thats called EVERYDAY LIFE. if an employee screws a company, thats called KARMA.

I agree, sort of. For practical purposes, it's everyday life. For practical purposes, it's karma. No problem.

SOBER DUCK

I believe if an employee gives his or her eight hour day 100% they wouldn't last the work week.

I can only say that my PERSONAL experience has been far different. My eight hour day has lasted me through two major employers and several months so far in a small business. Don't waste time by the water cooler and your eight hour day will get you far, unless you are REALLY REALLY dumb. 'Scuse me about the really dumb part, but I was really dumb for the first four or five months of my job, and still have my blond moments and no one's canned my ass yet. That's because I WORK, I think.

I do go home at the end of the day, and I refuse to give dozens of freebie hours for no payback. You can forget it. What I do in the eight hours has kept me here so far, so I don't know where you are coming from with this.


[/quote]a pace is created that apeases everyone. It may not be ethical to do so but it is a way of our society.

That is my question, almost exactly. Do you pace your work based on what is expected BY YOUR BOSS, or do you pace it based on some general, societal expectation, or a feeling of disenfranchisement, or what??? I pace and base my work or what I think my boss expects, but when my 8 hour workday is over, then in general, she can kiss my ass. I go HOME then. I do NOT spend more time than what is required, but at the same time, I do not slack when I am there. I WORK.

KNIP

Yeah, I know that the employer is always going to try to get MORE for LESS. Sure.

The reason the employer often DOES get more work for less money is most often because of the low self-esteem and confused work ethics of many people living in this culture. My opinion. If people had a more accurate idea of what their work was worth, and how long to do that work ( or how much to do) to earn a certain salary, it wouldn't happen. I admit that the SLAVES and grovellers ruin it for everybody, to a great extent. On the other hand, the people who slack off ruin it for an equal number of people. Some employers are jaded and assume that anyone they hire is a potential slacker and reimburse for services accordingly.

if one approaches these things from the perspective of X pay = X amount of work (unless a contract), then one will never get X amount of work]

When you said THAT, you were showing that, in your experience, people ALWAYS do less than they are asked to do. That is not always true. It's not true of me. I can hate my employer's GUTS (present employer NOT excepted) and I will STILL work. Dammit. If I am REALLY pissed, then I will keep my eyes open for problems that I can legally cause that employer or person. I had one staked out just in case my former employer decided to screw me in any way. They didn't, so, LOL, they didn't get the class action lawsuit I was going to submit to an attorney to initiate. But I WORKED, up to the very last day I was there. I didn't waste time. When I dropped into my seat, that is when I started working and I didn't stop until it was time to go.

Employment is ALWAYS much more complex these days that whether or not a person is working, I admit. But from the worker's standpoint, why bother with it? If you work hard and work smart, then you deserve your pay. Period. If you don't do those things -- especially if you DELIBERATELY don't do those things -- then you should be fired. Anything else is unjust.