Studio8 - Uniting the Arts

as far as i know, cecil, all wealthy countries have this type of problem, although perhaps not to the extent of the US...wealthy europe is full of slums, ghettos, and enclaves of folks from other parts who come there to work, marseilles 1 million + north africans is a good example...sometimes they are invited and don't leave, like germany's turks...almost all menial labour in the wealthy middle eastern states is done by pakistani, indian, bangladeshi, afghani, & iraqi labourers, some somalis too...pakistan's # 2 export is people...australia has immigration problems similar to the US from southeast asia...even canada has the same illegal worker issue with fruit & vegetable pickers as the US, although to a smaller scale

the point is that this condition exists, as far as i have seen in my travels, or read about, in EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY WITH WEALTH IN THE WORLD

it isn't a US problem; it is human nature (not an economic argument/point, either, cat)...you cannot control this...in fact, it is going to get tons worse in the near future, unless you happen to think africa is well on the road to recovery...but i don't

thx, knip, for the reply.

Comments/questions: two countries you didn't mention - China/Taiwan and Japan... curious as to whether these countries rely upon immigrant labor to the extent that other wealthy countries do?

The reason I brought up China is that being a one-party system, it still has grown to be a wealthy country by any measurement but with such a huge population I don't see an immigration problem. Perhaps I'm wrong... I don't know.

And Japan... I have heard about some Koreans living there. Would you happen to know if they immigrated there for a better life? Or if any other country's peoples have gone there for jobs. I'm speaking here about large numbers and not just a couple of hundred or even a few thousand... more like vast numbers like other wealthy countries have brought in.

South America and it's democratically elected socialist leaders seems to be an interesting change, one that is not so militarily enforced like Russia or early China. Given what is happening in those countries, I wonder if their peoples are more willing to stay within their own borders given the more balanced economic secruity that the leaders promise - education, heath care, jobs, etc.. It's an interesting change of human events whose seed is now growing and I am listening as much as I can hear and read regarding this. If Mexico begins leaning in the same direction that could reduce the numbers of illegal immigrants... possibly. Time holds the answer, eh?

it isn't a US problem; it is human nature

ten four on the human nature.
But human nature is still part of nature
Even when it becomes

diseased?

This is a sham issue to me, do not not mean that cat's anaylsis was not brilliant, or that cecil saw right through it.

that got dam border that river south of here there was a time when it was not a border,

what is on the ground here is Texas is different that what is on ground up north

the Latino culture predates the american culture. hell just about everything pre dates american culture.

Have you ever heard of a book called "The Things Of New Spain:?

jack - the 'latin culture' wiped out the Aztec culture, enforcing the Spanish language upon the natives...

and so it goes,
where it ends
nobody knows

I don't know about wiped out Cecil, I never knew mexicans were not white people until I came to Texas, there are a lot of the old ones still with us. I thought Castenada(sp) was an anthropologist. Have you ever listened to the stattion out in Gallup. Them cats sure ain't speaking spanish amigo.

cat,

you wrote, regarding immigration restrictions,

It isn't just ONE nation-state. See Australia, see New Zealand, see Malayasia, see the UK. I wonder if it's really easy to become a resident of Denmark?

my reply is simple: two wrongs, or a hundred, don't make a right. partners in crime are not excuses for crime.

cat wrote, as a response to my analogy of the distinction b/t legal/illegal immigrant to that between free-citizen/slave:

I don't know that this analogy exactly works, because we're not talking about slaves and free persons. But if you want to talk about differences between legal and illegal immigrants, I'll go you one.

of course the point of an analogy is to reveal a similar structure in two non-identical things or pairs. my analogy, as i presented it in a post above, means that to say there's an inherent difference between legal and illegal immigrants is like saying there is an intrinsic difference between people who are free and those who are slaves. rather than being natural or moral, the truth is that differences in status have been imposed on them by an oppressive political system, tied to econoimic exploitation and racist/nationalist attitudes.

cat asks,

Why not just say "I am for illegal immigration"? What's with the euphemism?

i don't like the term 'illegal immigrant' because i believe that the laws on which that label is based are not valid laws; they are unconstitutional and contrary to universal human rights. just as i wouldn't say that somebody engaged in civil disobedience against an unconstitutional prohibition is acting illegally, but rather simply acting contrary to a purported 'law' which is really itself ilegal (for example, civil rights activists disobeying segregation laws in the South in the 1950s and '60s), so too i think that the term 'illegal immigrant' wrongly lends credence to an unjust system which itself is illegitimate.

let me stress that it is not about euphemism. in fact, my position is quite radical and explicit: the government's immigration agency is illegal and indeed criminal. people who want to immigrate or emigrate have my moral support, whether or not the gov't gives its blessing.


lastly, cat, i am not sure what you mean by continually using the phrase 'give me a break' but in any event this is a public debate so i am addressing you as an interlocutor but the audience is everyone. still, i have to respondto this which you wrote:

"Constitution my ass. If the American people wanted to rewrite the whole thing, then "by the consent of the governed" they could do it."

amending the constitution is possible; but until that occurs, something the government does that contrary to it, is not legal. it was thought necessary to amend the constitution to authorize income tax by the feds. yet, for some reason, the feds can operate a police-state apparatus directed against non-citizens. very strange thing for a country based on freedom. could it be that "the consent of the governed" has been wrongly limited to the privileged who have citizenship while others, who are no less subjected to the government are excluded from having a voice -- indeed being threatened with sanctions for trying to work for a living, being detained and deported are some of the harshest modes of government; that being so, our 'democracy' is a sham.

our 'democracy' is a sham.

no shit sherlock

One good thing about this issue he might got a cople points bounce in the poles for looking so presidential during this crissis.

It is going to be the issue of the week from now to the november elections,

and we can debate, and we can be a ship of fools debating issues that are not all that improtant. Any thing that distracts the press from the number one deepest shit we are into, which is Iraq. Every move they make is so insolent, so stupid, corrupt, why should immigration be any differet

What will be the issue next week. Gay marriage? Abortion? Flag burning? General Motors goes belly up. "What is good for general Bullmoose is good for the USA. Al Capp

OK, e-dog, so you're an idealist and you admit it. I respect your honesty. You are against borders and for a world economy and a world government. Go for it.

I would be on your side, except for the small fact that the world isn't ordered like that, just YET.

And you conveniently cut through all my arguments about the inherent flaws in human nature. You just ignored them. No problem. If you think all humans are good and if the earth is equally apportioned among all human beings, they will all act benevolently, then I'll just leave you in your fairy land. Dream on.

***

I've gotten some religion on the other website. This country doesn't have ANY easy way for immigrants to come here legally. This is basically a closed system, if you're talking about legal stuff. That INFURIATES me. It also embarasses me, because I've been talking about legal immigration and WTF do I know? There are very few "legal" ways to immigrate.

It also makes me ask a question: if we didn't have so many low-end migrant workers illegally immigrating, could we afford to get in some legal skilled workers? And wouldn't that up the ante for our country and its economy? Fuck, this country needs help! We are far behind the European nations as far as having an educated labor force, and a material product that we can offer to other nations in trade. What happened to us? We used to be so good, and now we're a "service economy" (whatever THAT means) balanced on the back of the almighty dollar. It's going to crash any time soon.

There's no solution to the problems we have here. Bush has put the period on the end of the sentence. Things are bad.

But I don't understand how your idealistic dream of a world government is going to solve our specific problems. It doesn't. Maybe you've already got a rope hung from the nearest bannister, e-dog, because you KNOW you're talking about a failure in your own class. I have no idea.

Mtmynd had some brilliant additions to this discussion. Did everyone just *bleep* over them???

their own government does not care about the ones that cross but does indeed enjoy the benefits of monies being sent back to Mexico, reportedly the second largest means of generated money for the country after oil/gas.

if the Mexican gov't really cared about losing so many of their own countrymen they would offer a solution to those that leave in order to better their own country... but they don't.

in order to do jobs that our government claims would not be done by our own citizens would have to continually draw off immigrant labor... with no end in sight.

why does the Mexican govt strictly enforce their own southern borders from those further south of Mexico?

there are a minority of Mexicans that feel the U.S. stole their country and feel they should have it back. let us hope this minority remains a minority or all hell could break loose

The actual land of Mexico is very wealthy - gas/oil, mineral wealth, climate conducisive to great agricultural benefits... all these would greatly assist the entire population

what other country in the world relies so heavily upon immigrants to "do jobs the people won't do?"

HEY!!! HELLOOOO!!! Who wants to address these brilliant points instead of just acting like they didn't exist???

Mtmynd and many of us have firsthand experience with living in the border states. He's totally topped me in information and facts. Let's hear what you have to say.

i admit that i haven't had time to address mtmyund's points -- yet. i've focused on yours, cat.
speaking of which, where did you get the idea of 'world government' from my posts? not that anything i said is nec. against the idea, but surely nothing i said -- all of which is rather anti- [existing]gov't -- supports that.

mtmynd:

your ten points are interesting but i fail to see the relevance to the immigration debate.

statements 1,2,3,5,6,8,9 all of which pertain to the Mexican gov't are irrelevant, though interesting, points. fuck the mexican government, and fuck the american gov't. i'm talking about people. despite the fact that their gov't is run by horses' asses, people have rights.

point number 7 is correct -- the U.S. DID steal Mexican land from Mexico. its called the Mexican-American War and manifest destiny and all that shit. as some Chicanos say, 'We didn't cross the border. the border crossed us.'


as for points 4 and 10, i fail to see how the low wages paid to immigrants can be justified. the solution to an unjust system is to challenhge it, not to capitulate to the man.

fuck whitey. fuck nationalism.

HEY!!! HELLOOOO!!! Who wants to address these brilliant points instead of just acting like they didn't exist???

Not me

now this is brilliant if you ask me, funny and brilliant although part of it pretty sick too, But I wander cat

have you got around to checking it out?


http://www.studioeight.tv/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=6690

e_dog - your last line, "fuck nationalism" I thought interesting. What do you think of the Mexican flag be proudly raised at the current demonstrations? How would you confront those that are doing the waving?

sorry e-dog, it is all a sham, and nationalism is rooted in our nervous systems and we have such clever hands to fashion weapons to defend our national interests with.

Sorry all of you

I hope you all figure this out.

I think it is spring and if I was a high school student I could nuse a little xtra time out doors.

I wish them well, I wish they would carry a few Iraqi flags with them.

Now if this was France, we might have a chance.

I will say no more here
sorry I butted in.

mtmynd,

good point about the flags.

i think its pretty stupid idea to be waving around Mexican flags at an immigrant rights rally. probably was done by agents provacateurs working for Lou Dobbs.

the truth is that differences in status have been imposed on them by an oppressive political system, tied to econoimic exploitation and racist/nationalist attitudes.

I know e-dog.

I wonder how many of those high school kids protesting think that Iraq has something to do with 9/11

e-dog, I never considered the possibility that you are so young and innocent. Your knowedge far exceeds your years I bet (i mock you not)

I am so got dam cynical, I depend on those three people to kick me in the ass when I start talking REALPOLITIK>

On the constituinal ammendment I think we ought to repeal the 22 amendment let bush have another four years.

oh yeah the trhree people here with da PTSD Blues, they always kick my ass when I start talking realpolitik.

I lost the url but I stumbled on this quote that I been asking my self
Am I young enough for revolution?