Is marrige an antiquated concept?

[mnaz]

Is give and take partnership in general an antiquated concept in this high and mighty, profit-obsessed land of "with us or against us"?...

Mutually enriching partnership is still as relevant as it was in the beginning. For example, where would we be without God, and where would God be without us? But marriage in terms of posession and status enhancement is antiquated, even dangerous, I dare say...

I know a friend who married for money,
I know a friend who married for love.
Now one has money; the other is wealthy.

I know a religious man who
married to reserve a better seat in heaven.
Now he can't wait to get there.

On the other hand I know a man like me,
who felt marriage to be personally irrelevant,
but then he's always been a loner...

All I can say is... if ya feel it, then go with it...

[Doreen Peri]

Cecil & SooZen .... you are my idols. Seriously, I love to hear of love that lasts and from couples who are so dedicated and committed to each other.

I truly WANT to believe in the institution of marriage ... to believe it CAN work ... because I think the concept is just beautiful!

But I also want to believe in Jesus Christ and Santa Claus. LOL!

I crack myself up.

Seriously, though, my parents were married for 35 years (or 38? something like that) before my Dad died and death was the only way they'd be parted. I grew up with the example of two happily married parents who treated each other with respect and undying love.

My sister has also been married for something like 25 years ... actually come to think of it, I have 2 sisters who have been married for more than 20 years .... and they're both quite happy!

I guess they got lucky and I didn't. I had 2 failed marriages and no matter how much I wanted it to work, the relationships just weren't right. They were unhealthy relationships.

So, I'm not inclined to even consider doing it again.

I applaud all those who are luckier than me and who have chosen partners who they can commit to and dedicate themselves to for such a long time!

mnaz - your reply was eloquent.

[WIREMAN]

"If you feel it then go with it." that's about as good an answer as can be given.....my mom and dad stayed married from 1948 to 1988 when he died, my sister from 1969 till the present.....I would have worked it out with
2 of my 3 marriges the first being a youthful 9 month fling which is hard to count.
I'll never say "never again."

[mtmynd]

Dor' - "I truly WANT to believe in the institution of marriage..."

I think there's a problem with that. I can count 6 couples we know very well that have been married longer than us and one couple that has been together over 26 years who aren't institutionally married. Add to that the several we know about including at least two on this board. Soo & I aren't a special case. 50% of marriages fail - the other half seem to survive. Why? I believe it's because they don't honor the institution of marriage as much as they really like each other... enjoy being around each other. Why else would anyone stay with someone for so long? Love comes and goes depending upon our feelings at the moment. Like??? It's the foundation for any friendship, IMHO. Liking someone enough to live with day by day is enjoyable on many levels for many people. Marriages don't survive without enjoyment. Marriage is not 'made in heaven' but marriage is a partnership that is built day by day, month by month, year by year... a continually growing thing from which we share and comfort each other and receive nourishment from in return. Any friendship/partnership has to be both giving and forgiving in order to receive what we need as human beings.

None of our friends, I'm sure, went into their partnerships with the idea of 30+ years (and more) as a goal. That would stifle any partnership. (yeow! scary to think about that!!) None of us can predict how long our partnerships will last... we try to enjoy being with each other day by day. Some days suck and others are wonderful... just like anyone else's married or not.

[Doreen Peri]

I'm not really following you, Cecil. I read what you wrote 2x. Hmmm...

Are you saying that there's a problem with believing in the institution? That if you believe in the institution, you're doomed to fail but instead you need to believe in the person and your time together?

I'm trying to understand.

I stuck with my second marriage 8 years too long (it was a 9 year marriage and only during the first year would I say that we were happy). Why did I do that? Because of my vows. Because I believed in the institution of marriage and wanted to be true to my vows.

Today, I realize that was a grave mistake! I could have freed myself up way earlier rather than spending all those miserable years due to vows to a partnership that was not only not working, but which was causing both of us and our children hardships and strife.

I'm not as blessed as you to know so many people who have been lucky enough for it to work. My experience is the opposite. Most everyone I know has been divorced. Ahh now there are my 2 sisters who are happily married for many years but one of them, this is her second marriage so that bears out your 50% quote. I consider them very lucky.

I don't know what attitude is the best to have when it comes to relationships lasting. I change my opinion a lot on this topic. My current opinion is that I don't think it's worth it to beat a dead horse. I mean, why push a commitment if two people grow out of each other and the relationship is so hard that it isn't pleasant any more?

As I said, I'd like to believe in that kind of commitment but jesus, it's just hasn't worked for me. When I made the commitments before, I ended up being committed to the commitment even though it was not only not working but had become unfixable.

To me, the healthiest thing people can do is to move on if the relationship isn't working. Life's too short to be unhappy. So, for the sake of both parties, moving on makes more sense in some scenerios.

But again, I have to admit I am envious of those who have had the blessing of a long-term partnership! It must be fabulous!

[Doreen Peri]

Oh... one more thing... I'm pretty sure it's all my fault that I haven't been so lucky. I can be a bitch.

lol!

[mtmynd]

You got it, Dor'... it's not the institution but the relationship, pure and simple. 'Beating a dead horse' is something nobody should endure. One of our separated friends (from a 20 year relationship) had her husband call it quits which hurt her for awhile until she realized how mentally abused she was from it. We consoled her and helped her find the joy in her heart. We knew it was good for her.

We also have several friends, mostly males, that are single- never married, and loving it. Also a very good friend who was married twice to the same guy and would now have her life no other way than single.

50% is what is happening in our society. Unfortunately, it shouldn't be that much if people only really knew who they were marrying without the blinders of passion/lust distorting their clarity of the simple truth of the person they think the are in love with.

Again, any relationship is a day-to-day affair...

[WIREMAN]

takin everything in life moment to moment....over the long haul....the only haul......"....the older you get the deeper the love you need."....zen master joshu......."it's more than a Salvador Dali melting clock day." wireman..........

[Raggedman]

I figger you get out of a relationship what you invest in it

Of course I've gotten out of a few of them...

But seriously, I pretty much screwed my marriages up single-handed

Its something a person should pay attention to, not take for granted

Marriage though, isn't neccessary for success


So... Two houses, three bar\restaurants, and several cars later... I still believe two people can keep devotion

[e_dog]

marriage is what happens when too lonely people get together and decide to add to the overpopulation problem.

gay marriage -- a true contradiction in terms (gay=happy).

[hester_prynne]

I think my relationships failed for two reasons. First, I'm not needy enough, and 2nd, I'm not very beautiful physically.
Ho hum
H

[judih]

hester, you are beautiful, so that's not a valid reason.

not needy enough?
over-needy tend to find co-dependent relationships, not necessarily good marriages.

i think a relationship fails when two people find that they aren't enjoying being together. They begin to lie, to find excuses not to come home, to dread moments when there's nothing to distract them from simply being together.

When so many factors add up, and neither of the partners say anything or do anything to stop the cycle, then pppfffft goes the reason for the relationship.

And the opposite - when it's simply good to be with someone, including fighting and disagreeing and laughing and supporting one another, when it's better to be with that person, more stimulating, more life-giving, than being alone, then the relationship is good.

Creating an honest, good relationship takes a basic liking for the other; a respect for the other and a willingness to be open to the other's point of view.

It takes effort, but the effort is not really felt, because there's a genuine liking keeping daily life enjoyable.

My first marriage was based on curiousity. When the curiousity was satisfied, that was all there was.

My second relationship was based on surprise, joy and inner chemistry. That kind of thing doesn't end.

Or, at least, hasn't yet. (who knows?)

j

[Doreen Peri]

e-dog, you're a riot!

hest - you are beautiful, inside and out! yes you are! you are clearly NOT needy and I agree with judih about that. Neediness creates unhealthy relationships. Who needs that?

judih said

i think a relationship fails when two people find that they aren't enjoying being together.

Perfectly stated, judih. I think so too. There's nothing worse than being lonely when you're supposedly "with" someone in a relationship.

There are key words in your post, also... "life-giving" and "stimulating." Those factors are necessary for a relationship to work.

It's painful when the factors add up and one partner DOES say something about it repeatedly and really wants to stop the cycle and yet nothing changes. Which takes me back to beating a dead horse.

Both parties need to be receptive to each other's needs and WANT to be to together, to spend time with each other, to do things together, to grow together.

It takes two. When one party retreats and no longer gives the life-giving energy to a relationship, what's left? There is no relationship after that.

[judih]

dor,
that's definitely true. It takes both people. They both must like being together. They each must truly like the other and trust them with their very cores.

When there's trouble, it takes two to look, listen and work it out.
When there are high times, it takes two to enjoy, without recrimination or ill-feeling.

When one freaks out, the other needs to be stable. When one is high, the other needs to be able to allow the high, celebrate the high, and give room for crash if it happens.

Oh, it's not common - this sort of generousity of each to each. Putting it in words makes me think that if this kind of relationship happens, it's a sort of miracle.

Perhaps many long-term relationships are composed of people getting used to things, putting up with things, or running to friends outside of the relationship to compensate for negatives in the primary relationship.

Perhaps some long-term relationships are based on group dynamics. Certain things happen within the couple's life together and other things happen within other people. If it works, bravo.

What works is to be applauded.

I used to daydream about running off to a sufi cell, for pure meditation in selfish solitude. I thought that only through absolute segregation from those people I live with could I truly find what I want. Now I don't think so.
When one of my children leaves, I'm so aware of my attachment, that I know that loving relationships are gifts, not to be thrown away.

A child is a gift. To have a child to love is amazing. If I had known that such love was possible, I might have had 8 children.

and now i'm truly rambling.
Marriage, you said?
Cecil and Soo.

Relationships, you said? Golden when they're good. And it's golden to know what good is, no matter how long it lasts.

[stilltrucking]

Not beautiful?
You?
Something wrong with your mirror Hester
Use mine.