Studio8 - Uniting the Arts

Posted: **May 21st, 2007, 1:04 am**

Alright, look. Maybe I just don't get your hyper-confrontational style. I suppose that has a lot to do with it.

For example, when I point out that the military can help with humanitarian relief, "a la Katrina", I mean the positive possibilities of such an event, not the abuses that occurred, and I don't appreciate having that thought summarily thrown back in my face as you did here.

But you're right, I suppose. As far as "accusation", I guess I've done plenty of it, if not always so directly, so who am I to object?

Posted: **May 21st, 2007, 1:17 am**

mnaz wrote: For example, when I point out that the military can help with humanitarian relief, "a la Katrina", I mean the positive possibilities of such an event, not the abuses that occurred, and I don't appreciate having that thought summarily thrown back in my face as you did here.

How was I supposed to know? I didn't throw anything in your face. I was asking why you thought that was legitimate. And if you didn't, why did you use it as an example?

But you're right, I suppose. As for "accusation", I guess I've done plenty of it, if not always so directly, so who am I to object?

I just don't see what's so confrontational. Really, the way people perceive what I say makes me think that they're actually the way they portray me. When you disagree, do you do it out of malice? I don't. I feel strongly about the things I feel strongly about, however, and I feel that compromising that is dishonest, and harms both you and me.

Let's put it this way. Let's say we're talking about rape, and a bunch of people start saying they think rapists are really just people, some of them mean well, and you know rape isn't the only thing they do, and gee what if they raped because they couldn't get sex consensually and hey everyone deserves sex. Really, that's what these kinds of conversations are like for me.

Posted: **May 21st, 2007, 1:42 am**

eyelidlessness wrote:How was I supposed to know? I didn't throw anything in your face. I was asking why you thought that was legitimate. And if you didn't, why did you use it as an example?

It's legitimate because the military can be used not just to further corporate/imperial boardroom agendas, but to actually help people in times of crisis. That is a distinct possibility. And that was my point, which you dismissed and dissed with lightning speed in your short reply.

I just don't see what's so confrontational. Really, the way people perceive what I say makes me think that they're actually the way they portray me. When you disagree, do you do it out of malice? I don't. I feel strongly about the things I feel strongly about, however, and I feel that compromising that is dishonest, and harms both you and me.

No real argument with any of this.

Let's put it this way. Let's say we're talking about rape, and a bunch of people start saying they think rapists are really just people, some of them mean well, and you know rape isn't the only thing they do, and gee what if they raped because they couldn't get sex consensually and hey everyone deserves sex. Really, that's what these kinds of conversations are like for me.

That is quite a slanted analogy, though I do understand it, and I think that's what many of us are trying to get at if we're paying any sort of attention-- the ever widening schism chasm between honor and duty and the unthinking warrior of "freedom".

Posted: **May 21st, 2007, 2:01 am**

mnaz wrote:It's legitimate because the military can be used not just to further corporate/imperial boardroom agendas, but to actually help people in times of crisis. That is a distinct possibility. And that was my point, which you dismissed and dissed with lightning speed in your short reply.

To demonstrate that the US military is legitimate and can be used to help people, you used as an example an instance in which soldiers did... well, exactly what I said they did. You are mad because I disagree. That's your prerogative, but it certainly isn't an appropriate response as far as I see it.

No real argument with any of this.

Great. I'm glad we agreed about that, and I hope that will establish some sort of foundation for understanding in the future when we disagree, which we're sure to do.

That is quite a slanted analogy,

Why? I think besides the fact that I slightly exaggerated the exact phrasing, it's perfectly analogous.

though I do understand it, and I think that's what many of us are trying to get at if we're paying any sort of attention-- the ever widening schism chasm between honor and duty and the unthinking warrior of freedom.

What I'm saying is that we live in a society that commits horrible crimes, and people are actually responsible for it. An estimated 650,000 Iraqis have been killed in Iraq due to conflict since March 2003. Someone had to pull the trigger.

I don't care why they thought what they were doing was right. They did it, and it was not right. If they killed students at Virginia Tech, the reaction would be totally different.

Posted: **May 21st, 2007, 2:38 am**

eyelidlessness wrote:To demonstrate that the US military is legitimate and can be used to help people, you used as an example an instance in which soldiers did... well, exactly what I said they did.

And more.

You are mad because I disagree. That's your prerogative, but it certainly isn't an appropriate response as far as I see it.

No. More like you cut off my thought at the knees, as it were. And no one likes that kind of treatment in a free and open discussion, nor is it particularly productive.

What I'm saying is that we live in a society that commits horrible crimes, and people are actually responsible for it. An estimated 650,000 Iraqis have been killed in Iraq due to conflict since March 2003. Someone had to pull the trigger.

Again, I do not disagree with any call for accountability and reality. Hell, the world is destitute for that ethical point of view. And who pulled the trigger in each case? It wasn't always the rapist G.I., though it was at times. More likely it was a mindset that allowed the almighty buck to determine global morality and blood sacrifice. This is what we need to work on. This is what we need to call out.

Posted: **May 21st, 2007, 3:31 am**

"Jesus died for someone's sins, but not mine".
I always liked that line for some reason. It set me free from that whole guilt trip, of "him" dying for us, to save us from "evil", becoming a hero for it. Murdered by his own father, the holy spirit.
I mean this shit is ingrained in us. It's our most expected pledge of allegience. We call ourselves a democracy, but we are a theocracy through and through.
As we live to be older, for some of us, the story's meaning changes. It's not so literal.
It's more about ourselves.
Armies, wars, soldiers, murderer's, agendas, some sort of redemption the goal. You kill these violent resolves in yourself, you don't kill others. That's what works for me.
The road to hell was paved with good intentions.
Eyelidlessness, I perceive your truth's as microscopic, in a world that is certainly not ready to become so "scientific" if you will.
I hear you.
I cringe at your words, but see them as true.
It's simply murder.
The only decent thing to do, is everything we can to stop it. Mice or not.
But the religious part of it, stymies everything. The very story of Christ on the Cross, as a hero is what fuels war. How old is that story, and it's variants?
I don't see that story changing in the near future. In fact, those of us that "toy" with such microscopic truths, are heretic, criminal, dangerous, etc...
Indeed, our soldiers in Iraq are murderers. It's what they are doing, what our beloved country believes is right to ask them to do. The terrorists are murderers, murderer's are murderers. Maybe, psychologically, we're all murdered and dead already, just going through motions, always dying in the end anyway.....
Maybe birth itself is a kind of murder.

Fascinating thread...
H

Posted: **May 21st, 2007, 7:51 am**

(another letter to the editor, St Pete Times, sent last week, not printed)
Subject: on leaving Iraq vs Vietnam

I was a flight instructor in tactical airlift in Vietnam in 1971 at the end of my tour of duty there. The last few months of my tour, we pulled out of all the artillery bases in three corps, north of Saigon, leaving an extensive wasteland that extended up through eastern Cambodia. A recent letter writer claimed that a million Vietnamese died after we left. This is not correct. They died while we were there, not afterwards. The Khmer Rouge in Cambodia were stopped by the post-war national Vietnamese Army, who then turned over the country to a United Nations supported interim government and then left.

We got into Iraq based upon false information. I wrote a letter (archived in October, 2001) stating my pride and support for the troops in Afghanistan, and stating my worries about expanding the war into Iraq.

Our misconceptions continue. This demonizing of Iran and Syria is another inflation and is erronious. Our focal point should be to work with the international community against Al-Qaida and let the Iraqis have their country back.

I want my country back as well. I just spoke with a returned Iraq vet last week. I welcomed him home, said "God bless you, brother" and informed him about the Vet Center. We have much work to do and this war in Iraq is not where we want to be investing our blood, courage, and honor.

J W
© Copyright 2006 St. Petersburg Times. All rights reserved.

Posted: **May 21st, 2007, 7:54 am**

Today's Letters: Banning Web sites a slap in the face for U.S. troops
By LETTERS TO THE EDITOR
Published May 21, 2007

Defense Department bans Web sites May 15, story

Give me a break.

We can stop-loss them. We can back-door draft them. We can ask them to sacrifice everything, but we can't let our troops communicate with their friends and family?

We can outsource military funding to war profiteers like Blackwater and Halliburton while hiding the decay of military barracks and hospitals, but we can't let our troops enjoy YouTube?

This is insane! Let's demand one massive refund from the war profiteers and use it to take care of our military. Let's build them the best Internet access in the world with Web cams so they can see their babies. Let's build the best military hospitals.
Heck, let's go crazy and bring them home now and give them quality health care for life!

Megan Foster, Tampa

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/05/21/Opini ... _Ban.shtml

Posted: **May 21st, 2007, 8:09 am**

eyelidless one
we all know that a license to kill is murder
also we know that young folks want to expand their horizons
which is why the manipulation of youth into warmaking is easy
but also
not-respecting the personas of returning vets is socially unacceptable
why?
they will bring their killings home

i got to hug a guy last christmas season
vets for peace banquet
he came down to Tampa from Gainsville
ex-Marine
killed a lot in Vietnam
survived and then changed

personally I am wounded for life
I will never be free of the dismay,
the periodic shakes,
the unbelieveable anger and sadness,
which is why I am always healing.
I always look at retired mitary folks as sponges on Uncle Sam,
but there were other things that were done,
better than the Vietnam or Iraq Wars, Panama, Nicaragua,
school of assassins, etc
and better things that could be done
but hey, we'd need to respect other nations and the UN
and right now that is a place to look toward
meanwhile we now have better body armor
gator skin, man

it is not so absolute, right and wrong\

I refused duty after coming home from Nam.
would have been "better off" just following orders, I know.

what I went thru after sucked
and a part of my healing came thru other vets
mainstream vets
and part came thru antiwar folks, quakers

so i am a war vet and antiwar
what the fuck
a murderer
we off loaded land mines by hand
left them by the runway
bye bye boom boom

Posted: **May 21st, 2007, 8:39 am**

Courage to Resist launches MySpace operations

Make Courage to Resist one of your top friends!
U.S. Army bans MySpace!
www.myspace.com/
couragetoresist

Courage to Resist. May 17, 2007

In the name of limited bandwidth and national security, the Army has banned MySpace, YouTube, and nine other social networking websites. Not only does this come only days after Courage to Resist launched our own MySpace outreach effort, it comes the day after the Army itself opened a YouTube channel dedicated to sharing the “good news that goes unreported” in Iraq! No word yet that www.couragetoresist.org has been banned.

Last month the U.S. Army ordered soldiers to stop posting to blogs or sending personal e-mail messages, without first clearing the content with a superior officer. The April 19 directive was the first clear, blanket restriction on troops' online activities since the start of the Iraq war. If followed “by the book,” it would mean the end of all military blogs. However, more likely, it’ll simply be another tool for the Army to shut down voices to it doesn’t like.

Ronn Cantu, an Army infantryman stationed in Iraq, posted on the soldiervoices.net forum, “This is worse than I had first anticipated. It turns out that this affects ALL DoD computers and network, not just work computers….This affects computers at the MWR (Morale, Welfare and Recreation) centers as well. In fact, those computers are set up SPECIFICALLY so that service members can keep in touch with families. There's already websites set up to bypass these restrictions though. It will be impossible to silence the troops.”

Under the policy, troops will still be allowed to access the sites from non-military computers, although few soldiers in combat areas carry private computers. At this time, troops still have some access to the banned sites via Internet cafes that are available in many areas of Iraq. Work-arounds, including the use of proxy servers, are being widely discussed among troops.

Akinoluna, a woman Marine blogger added, “Blocking to prevent "the disclosure of combat-sensitive material" is pointless…. The ban is only on the military network, the Internet cafes and private connections aren't affected so if some idiot wants to spill classified info via MySpace, they still can.”

The Washington Post noted the story of Mitchell Millican of Trafford, Alabama. Mitchell said he had relied on MySpace to stay in touch with his son Pfc. Jonathan M. Millican until he was killed in January by an attack on his compound in Karbala, Iraq.

For its part in cracking down on bad news coming out of Iraq, the U.S. controlled Iraqi government has banned reporters from covering the site of resistance attacks until after the area can be cleaned up. Iraqi troops have already begun enforcing this ban by firing automatic weapons over the heads of journalists to keep them away for battle scenes.

Make Courage to Resist one of your top MySpace friends!

Posted: **May 21st, 2007, 2:14 pm**

btw...

Sorry again, eyelidlessness... still trying to figure out your style. You do put quite a few hard-edged POV out there, rather abruptly at times, and some of them seem somewhat counter-intuitive with little or no accompanying comment... but then I suppose it's just something I need to "take more in stride" and adjust to.

Posted: **May 21st, 2007, 2:26 pm**

mnaz wrote:And more.

What's your point? The nazis also did some good things. Are you saying they weren't murderers, or that the good would have justified keeping them around?

No. More like you cut off my thought at the knees, as it were. And no one likes that kind of treatment in a free and open discussion, nor is it particularly productive.

All I did was take a separate thought and give it a separate response. My response to the previous thought or the next would not fit that particular aside. It was a complete thought all its own deserving a complete response all its own, was it not? I had no ill will. I just said what I think about the example you used. And that's what I think about it.

Again, I do not disagree with any call for accountability and reality. Hell, the world is destitute for that ethical point of view. And who pulled the trigger in each case? It wasn't always the rapist G.I., though it was at times. More likely it was a mindset that allowed the almighty buck to determine global morality and blood sacrifice. This is what we need to work on. This is what we need to call out.

There can be multiple responsible parties (and in the case of this war, there are). I'd say it's safe to say that every soldier, every politician, every corporate executive and every tax payer bears some responsibility for ever wrongful death in Iraq since March 2003. Not that saying that is making me any friends, but it's defensible in terms of responsibility being equal to participating in or enabling the action.

* * *

hester_prynne wrote:"Jesus died for someone's sins, but not mine".
I always liked that line for some reason. It set me free from that whole guilt trip, of "him" dying for us, to save us from "evil", becoming a hero for it. Murdered by his own father, the holy spirit.
I mean this shit is ingrained in us. It's our most expected pledge of allegience. We call ourselves a democracy, but we are a theocracy through and through.

You might be right, at least on the social level. I think "our" rulers are cynical manipulators of spirituality, and probably don't actually believe what they say they do.

As we live to be older, for some of us, the story's meaning changes. It's not so literal.
It's more about ourselves.
Armies, wars, soldiers, murderer's, agendas, some sort of redemption the goal. You kill these violent resolves in yourself, you don't kill others. That's what works for me.

Well, the Bible is parable.

The road to hell was paved with good intentions.

Yes, exactly.

Eyelidlessness, I perceive your truth's as microscopic, in a world that is certainly not ready to become so "scientific" if you will.

I prefer "uncompromising". It seems most of the conflicts I have over these sorts of things usually boil down to the fact that I don't compromise what I think is right, and people can't stand that I don't make the same exceptions they do, and the exceptions our social standards expect.

I hear you.
I cringe at your words, but see them as true.
It's simply murder.

Thank you for sticking your neck out to say it, cringing or not.

The only decent thing to do, is everything we can to stop it. Mice or not.

Right on.

But the religious part of it, stymies everything. The very story of Christ on the Cross, as a hero is what fuels war. How old is that story, and it's variants?

Eh. If it's not one story it's another. War existed before Jesus, and it's going to exist after Christianity.

The terrorists are murderers, murderer's are murderers. Maybe, psychologically, we're all murdered and dead already, just going through motions, always dying in the end anyway.....
Maybe birth itself is a kind of murder.

Now you lost me!

* * *

jimboloco wrote:eyelidless one
we all know that a license to kill is murder
also we know that young folks want to expand their horizons
which is why the manipulation of youth into warmaking is easy
but also
not-respecting the personas of returning vets is socially unacceptable
why?
they will bring their killings home

By the way, what I'm saying does not mean I think soldiers should be... well, even "punished". They should be stopped. They're committing crimes. They should be prevented from doing so. That says nothing about how they should be treated upon their return.

i got to hug a guy last christmas season
vets for peace banquet
he came down to Tampa from Gainsville
ex-Marine
killed a lot in Vietnam
survived and then changed

Speaking of vets for peace, I would like to mention a friend of mine, who's active in Vets for Peace here in Washington. When I first met him, he hated me, and took great offense at my views about US soldiers. We're now friends and have worked together as activists, and he's asked me to edit (both for errors and content) a book he's writing, whose purpose is to get across exactly the message I'm talking about: the soldiers in Iraq are committing crimes, and they need to be stopped.

Not saying that proves anything, just saying that there are soldiers out there who agree with me. And I'm also saying that I'm happy to befriend and work with ex-murderers who want to stop the murderers.

personally I am wounded for life
I will never be free of the dismay,
the periodic shakes,
the unbelieveable anger and sadness,
which is why I am always healing.

Yeah. The military is also destroying its own.

I always look at retired mitary folks as sponges on Uncle Sam,
but there were other things that were done,
better than the Vietnam or Iraq Wars, Panama, Nicaragua,
school of assassins, etc
and better things that could be done

Which better things have been done? Name a year since the US' inception and I could list at least one military action that was murderous and inexcusable.

it is not so absolute, right and wrong\

Some things are, some aren't. But I am absolutely confident that what's happening in Iraq is murder, and that the US soldiers are responsible for their actions (and the actions of their units and the units they support).

I refused duty after coming home from Nam.
would have been "better off" just following orders, I know.

Good for you. I don't think you'd have been better off. And as for US soldiers in Iraq… what's worse, prison or war? I know what I'd choose.

what I went thru after sucked
and a part of my healing came thru other vets
mainstream vets
and part came thru antiwar folks, quakers

I think that's probably what happens for a lot of vets coming back, even now.

so i am a war vet and antiwar
what the fuck
a murderer
we off loaded land mines by hand
left them by the runway
bye bye boom boom

And anyone here who doesn't recognize that as murder is lying to themselves and to us. That said, I'm glad you're antiwar, and I wouldn't hesitate to fight side-by-side with you.

If what you say you did is true, and I believe you, then yes, you are a murderer. I think you know as well as I do that we owe it to Iraqis to make sure no more of them fall victim to what 3 million Vietnamese suffered due to the US invasion. But right now, the history of that war is that 56,000 people died. 3 million Vietnamese aren't people. That's the history. That's why talking about these crimes as what they are is important.

* * *

There's another thing about Vietnam, that we almost all forget, when we're talking about Iraq:

"You will kill ten of our men and women, but we will kill one of yours and in the end it is you who will tire." - Ho Chi Minh

Posted: **May 22nd, 2007, 1:23 am**

Indeed I lost myself too eyelidlessness! Spinning into butter again, one word, murder.
Not compromising is a good talent to have. I wish i'd have had more of it, I've always been extremely worried that someone might be uncomfortable around alot of that.
I think the one compromise you have to make, is that you could compromise at any time if you wanted. You never want to be too sure of yourself. I suppose I'm more noncompromising about that.
Did I lose you again?
I think i'm getting lost again.

H

Posted: **May 22nd, 2007, 9:15 am**

None of my business but you say you really pissed me off. I was just wondering where I said that? I must be in worse shape than I thought.

I wonder if my consciousness might be a delusion

I think the utah phillips bit was right on.

Utah Phillips said:

You think people on the other side of the world need to be killed on the strength of voices coming out that box.

What part of you is responding to that voices. What makes you feel that way

Who in you are those voices talking too?

Who is really answering and why?

I hear those voices, I have those feelings.

The violence is in me too

on the gulf of tonkin
the president's voice coming out of that box told me we were under attack
and I believed him
because I was born to follow.

Posted: **May 22nd, 2007, 1:06 pm**

Troops blocked from access to myspace, youtube etc.

It sounds at the distance like an abrupt-naive way of stating control over the troops. The old slogan "let´s keep the moral of the tropas high...", "we are in the good way", "thumbs up all the time!!".

And about the Army, I don´t know... I also hope that they don´t need to exist. Also the police. But I´m not an anarquista and I´m not in a good day for social-utopìes. So, a rational answer is more complicated.

Some facts: here the Army was completely inútil for the mayority of the people after kicking the Spanish from the zone. Well, and that it was not exactly an "army-army". The Ejército Argentino was thought as an institution several decades after that, I don´t remember well if it was near 1870. And that´s other story.

Studio8 - Uniting the Arts

Troops blocked from access to myspace, youtube etc...