What am I missing here?

[stilltrucking]

This has nothing to do about Hester Deb
It is between me and you.
Of course I am a liar Deb.
But that is the way it sounded to me

Sorry

Stop it ST - Jack. Stop it ALL - NOW!

Stop baiting people by saying things that aren't true.
Stop posting at others until they have not more patience left and so the only thing left to do is blow up at you.

It's hurtful, it's disrespectful, it's distracting, it makes people angry; it's ugly, foul and abusive,. It's driving me crazy, it's driving others crazy ... so

STOP IT - ALL! NOW!

Jimboloco don't know why I feel uncomfortable with you.

I suppose it is being called a "stalker"

You drove me plenty crazy deb.

I am done with this thread.



I am done reading this thread
everyone has said it all for me.
better than I can articulate it.

[whimsicaldeb]

Hi Deb...

OK. I see.

I thought hester thought you were saying something about HER with the "knowing grins" comment. That's what I thought, too.

Now I see you are saying that you are saying that because Ceil and Soozen live in Texas, this is why they are more tolerant of Imus' crude and bigoted remarks, since they are used to it since they live in a racially bigoted state.

That's what the "knowing grins" refers to?

Yes.

Are you saying that everybody who lives in Texas are bigots? heh.. no, you can't be saying that.

Correct, that's not what I'm saying.

In my opinion, Imus has always been a jerk. That's his schtick. The fact that people (including sponsors and the radio stations he is played on) have tolerated his prejudiced and attacking comments for so many years, tells me that he has an audience and it makes them money and that's all that's been important to them. Now, when this last incident occurred, he probably got fired only because one or more of the sponsors threatened to pull their financial support.

"...have tolerated his prejudiced and attacking comments for so many years"

Exactly. It's been tolerating, and now that is all changing; it's n longer being tolerated as it once was.

I'm like you doreen (and most on this board), I don't listen to the man. But I have listened to him, and because I have - I turn him off. Most people are like us Doreen - most people do turn him off.

What shocked me, was coming in here and finding out that Cecil, the S8 resident guru, not only "tolerates Imus prejudiced and attacking comments for so many years" but support his right to be that way towards others as well. I found that shocking; couple that with insensitivity about a subject matter everyone was admitting they personally knew anything about (but continued to talk about anyway) appalling.

So, no - I do not view all Texans as bigots; I know they aren't because I know Texans who arent' bigots, or racist (but the sexist part is still a work in progress).

However, after reading his and soosen's replies in this thread, I do indeed view Cecil as a bigot, racist, and sexist and consider him a hypocrite.

I've never thought racially bigoted jokes were funny but I try to remember that it's just schtick. I don't HAVE to listen to it and nobody else does either.

Exactly. But the flip side is right as well. He doesn't HAVE to be on the public airways to have free speech either.

Free speech is not being taking away here. What's changing is that 'bar room' style talking is no longer being considered acceptable on public radio/TV .

He's can still able to say whatever it is he wants, in which ever way he wants. What's different is he's A) not longer getting paid to be so obnoxius and B) he's going to have to go the route of Stern and get a "pay-to-hear" job to continue with his act. No more 'free ride' on the public airways because the majority of the public and have 'had enough' of this guy.

None of that is stopping him expressing himself, only where & when. And now those people who really want to listen to him, can - but will have to pay for it ... and those of us who don't; don't have to keep turning off our TV's and radios.

...

One last thing, in explanation: finding out that cecil and soozen not only didn't turn this guy off but willingly choose to listen to him was shocking to me. I truly did not expect it of them. I thought they were like me, and you. The type of people who found this type of thing not funny and turning it off and tuning it out each day - instead of turning it on and tuning in.

Now that I know, I've accepted them for who and what they are (warts and all as they say: ditto for hester); but what a shock. What a way/place to find out. (for me).

In my opinion to say something about "knowing grins" when referring to people who live in a particular state, focusing on the fact that there is a history of racial prejudice in that particular state, implies that those who live there are probably inclined to be racially prejudice and I don't think that's fair. That's sorta similar to stereotyping ANY group of people, no?

It is a stereo type ... and it's particularly sad and pathetic sadly when you find people actually living up to these stereo types.

I've known Cecil and SooZen for many years (though we've never met in person). But I know them well enough to know that they are not at all bigoted people.

I don't know them very well at all, all I can use to determine what type of people they are is by observing what they choose to support or not support and why.

The thing with Imus is (and people like him, Ann Coulter) ... their there base (as you've written) are the people who support their style of 'schtick' and think it's funny.

Well, with Imus, they are supporting someone who likes (and used to earn his money from) calling others names, make fun of others, being deliberately insensitive, rude and often time just plain cruel towards others.

The main difference with Imus for other "commedians" is that he's not 'schticking it' to various/all groups of people; instead, he's getting his jollies from targeting specific people.

He didn't comment about all women basketball players ... he singled out the Rutger's black women basketball players.

He didn't single out all poets; he singled out black, woman poet: Maya Angelou.

He didn't make fun of all doctors; he didn't singled out the doctor who was taking care of his own adopted children (who ended up suing him for slander btw).

Maya Angelou
Serena & Venus Williams
Sen. Barack Obama
Hillary Clinton
The "scummy little money-grubbing Jewish bastards" at CBS

All specific people, not a random group; each one not a white "Christian" male - just like him.

The pattern of bigotry, racism, sexism and continuous slander is plain and that's why most people turned him off and find him offensive and why now people are calling for the cleaning up of our airways/music/entertainment.

That he's finally losing his job over this is fair and just.

And I'm not the only one who understands, thinks, and feels this way.

That others here can be so unaware of all this ... so unaware of mine and how others ways of feeling/thinking, ways of being. Again: shocking/appalling (sad and pathetic). Why not? Why don't you (you=group meaning - not simply person specific) know this? Why weren't you (you=group meaning - not simply person specific) aware?

It certainly hasn't been a hidden subject. It certainly isn't because people like myself have kept to myself. That's what I don't understand or get.

Just because some people accept someone's schtick as schtick and don't take it as seriously as you do, doesn't mean there are "knowing grins" from everyone who finds the schtick offensive and it doesn't mean that the people who accept the schtick as humor which doesn't offend them doesn't mean they're bigoted.

All it means is that they don't take language as seriously as you do, maybe.

No Doreen. It's not that individual words - the "language" on it's own that's being taken "too serious."

It's what's being said, the meaning behind it; who's saying it where ; to whom - and most of why - that's offensive. Not just to me... but to many MANY others.

This isn't just a "Deb" thing ... this is an important issue to many MANY people. If you walk away with anything from this thread - walk away with that understanding.

This is an important issue, for many reasons, for many people, and making light of it and belittling it/us over it is insulting and demeaning to those of us who have and hold deeper different feelings, ideas, and thoughts about then subject than you (group you) do.

So please respect our differences - and show your respect us by not making light/fun of either the situation or those within it, and by taking the time to learn more about it before you speak out.

Make the time and effort to "enlighten" yourselves about the different view/sides of things first, before you start commenting. And stop expecting others to bring/do it for you.

That would really help.

Oh and also what does someone's age have to do with it?

Well ...

"The rules of the game are set up to the advantage of the dominant majority bloc, which is not just Democrat or Republican but is wealthy white males," said Andrew Reynolds, a professor at the University of North Carolina.
Source:
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/ ... geNumber=1
U.S. system trips up women seeking presidency
Reuters: Sat May 5, 2007 9:10AM EDT

Wealthy white males whose age range also happens to be predominantly 60+ years of age who are the people running and are making all the major decision in corporations right now; including our president and his staff and who are apparent indifferent and/or blind to how their words, deeds and actions are hurtful, demeaning and insensitive to others.

Luckily (for everyone) ... most of our younger man and women do not have/share this same blinds and disregard towards and of others not like themselves.

Thank God!

[jimboloco]

Not my intention to come off as arrogant
I stated my impression that Deb was trying to be objective as was I but now it seems that I am arrogant

I am glad that you, Hester, are a strong gutsy woman, and if your take on me is, well arrogant,
so be it. I will try to be sensitive to you
but as with ST doing the blame game
will not be dragged into a spiraling downward.
iT TAKES YEARS TO BUILD UP A RELATIONSHIP AND THAT CAN BE DESTROYED IN A MOMENT BY ANGER

whatever your opinion of me, keep it real.

I can relate to Deb as far as my long slow healing process goes; It did not come easy and I still have to work at it.

I did get a bit torrid with the shit in the cesspool yeah biz
If you think I should be fired from studio eight
I would be dissappointed.
but would continue my practice.

Give me a negative rock
I'll lighten your load.

a prayer for peace
if you please
water off a duck's back
will deflect the attack
flotsam and jetsam
friends at last
when all that bullshit is past

so now we can all agree that words can be hurtful
thats's why the big deal to some folks about what Don Imus said
about the ladies on the Rutgers basketball team

so let us all share in that hurt
and if we didn't feel it before,
maybe we do now.

This has nothing to do about Hester Deb
It is between me and you.
Of course I am a liar Deb.
But that is the way it sounded to me

Sorry

i am sorry too
but not sorry for tying
back in the jewel mines
don't let it bring you down
it's only castles burning
find someone who'se turning
and you will come around

[stilltrucking]

jimboloco it is hard to have a conversation when you edit your posts after I reply. I have to remember not to do that to anyone again.

I ain't dragging you into nothing.

Leave me out of it and I will leave you out of it.
I got no complaints

but as with ST doing the blame game
will not be dragged into a spiraling downward.
iT TAKES YEARS TO BUILD UP A RELATIONSHIP AND THAT CAN BE DESTROYED IN A MOMENT BY ANGER

done I hope

[jimboloco]

hello Jack
hope you are having a lovely afternoon in Texas.

[stilltrucking]

oh god jimboloco you don't want to know
I will spare you the clinical details.
Still have not made it out the door today. Maybe I could wear a diaper
Seems like I been going steady with Sal Mineo, or maybe it is Sal Monella
Weird barbecue yesterday.

Please
I am out of this one
going to back out of this one
too many gender issues for me

I got to get a grip
and not read on this thread
cause I got nothing more to say
except it has been enlightening.

Love, peace and taco grease amigo
Texas been good to me
so far...

[mousey1]

Well I hope mnaz that you don't quash that passion and conviction.

For goodness sakes don't anyone tone yourself down.

Shall we all become as drones?

Each of us has our space in which we move. We interact in our own indubitable style. The fur may always fly. But if we can just give each other the benefit of the doubt before blowing up in each other's faces we might just learn we aren't as far apart as we first imagined.

I suspect that both Deb and Hester have hearts of gold and yet here we have some hints of venom. Well, I can be a snake in the grass myself, so I'm not pointing a righteous finger. I merely wish that once angry words are lashed out that they can be kindly taken back once cooler heads have prevailed. Otherwise there shall likely always be undertones of ill will.

Of one thing I am certain. Had all this taken place face to face, tempers would not have flared to this degree. Well, either that or blood would've flowed copiously.

As far as mt and sooz. I am appalled at you Deb. You tar and feather people too easily it seems. Yes, I suppose by our words shall we be judged, by our actions too though, can the one rule out the other? You nullify people with your words and also put intents in their mouths. Well, let the judgers be judged, it is only as it should be.

[jimboloco]

Oh my GAWD! I'm appalled by this thread. Then again 99% of the time I am totally opposite of the lead mine-sets on this board anyway, so why the hell should I be surprised to be finding something like this, here.

None the less, I am.

Oh my GAWD!

On the off chance that there was a glimmer of genuine sincerity in your musings about how or why others like myself found it offensive when Imus called a group of young women whores because of a basketball game, I suggest reading these commentaries and trying their perspectives on for size ...

it's all good

[Doreen Peri]

I think we're like one big happy family.

We put the FUN in dysfunctional.

lol

hey lighten up , OK?

(that's what my father used to say)

[whimsicaldeb]

Well I hope mnaz that you don't quash that passion and conviction.

For goodness sakes don't anyone tone yourself down.
Shall we all become as drones?

Each of us has our space in which we move. We interact in our own indubitable style. The fur may always fly. But if we can just give each other the benefit of the doubt before blowing up in each other's faces we might just learn we aren't as far apart as we first imagined.

I suspect that both Deb and Hester have hearts of gold and yet here we have some hints of venom. Well, I can be a snake in the grass myself, so I'm not pointing a righteous finger. I merely wish that once angry words are lashed out that they can be kindly taken back once cooler heads have prevailed. Otherwise there shall likely always be undertones of ill will.

Of one thing I am certain. Had all this taken place face to face, tempers would not have flared to this degree. Well, either that or blood would've flowed copiously.

As far as mt and sooz. I am appalled at you Deb. You tar and feather people too easily it seems. Yes, I suppose by our words shall we be judged, by our actions too though, can the one rule out the other? You nullify people with your words and also put intents in their mouths. Well, let the judgers be judged, it is only as it should be.

I fully agree. Judge me in return...

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/judging
8. to form a judgment or opinion of; decide upon critically: You can't judge a book by its cover.
9. to decide or settle authoritatively; adjudge: The censor judged the book obscene and forbade its sale.
10. to infer, think, or hold as an opinion; conclude about or assess: He judged her to be correct.
11. to make a careful guess about; estimate: We judged the distance to be about four miles.
12. (of the ancient Hebrew judges) to govern.
–verb (used without object)
13. to act as a judge; pass judgment: No one would judge between us.
14. to form an opinion or estimate: I have heard the evidence and will judge accordingly.
15. to make a mental judgment.

Critical thinking is important; necessary.

Have I based my decisions up sound and genuine facts and evidence; or have I based them foundless assertions and assumptions?

Am I able to support my opinions with hard and clear facts; or am I simply stating conjectures and opinions without evidence?

Have I taken the time, made the effort to read and familiarize myself on as many aspects of the situation as possible so as to gain an appropriately critically and sound base before I began my judging, or have I only used a few, selected sources as my base of reference?

....

I came, passed a judgment about people you care for, and further more my judgment was/is that they've came up short, and could/should do better.

Clearly, you do not like the outcome, or that I've done this (which requires a shared agreement of whether I should or shouldn't be judging others): but - now that I've done this; the question(s) then are: Was I accurate? Was/is my judgment sound?

I think I am being accurate and sound ... but if I'm not, and I'm wrong, I want to know. So yeah, judge me in return. It's okay, it's not a sin (in my book), or a bad thing to do ... Show me and explain to me exactly where and why you're appalled, like I did, so that I can learn as well.

Thank you.

...

... editing to add this part:

Coming in like a "Bat outta Hell" is the way I think mnaz put it full of sound an fury. That's bother people, when I do that. Why did I come and do that? Hester/Cecil rest are only being themselves and talking. It/they really doesn't/don't mean anything by it ...

....

Don't overlook: this is an open to the public message board. So they were not just sitting around some place together, having a private have a chit-chat ... though I think because you don't a get a lot of traffic it tends to feel that way. And when you do things out it public that is offensive to others - some times, some of those others are going to confront you; and it's not very likely that's it going to be a pleasant experience for anyone when that happens.

But that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.

I came in, heard and saw, and spoke out and up. I have a different view and opinion of all this; I have a different style of expression and add to that; I was shocked and appalled and it showed.

And in the process I did indeed disrupt and knock a few of you out of your comfort zones. And I'm glad I did ... look how much is being learned, that wouldn't have even been being talked about at all if I hadn't.

Now - if you're looking for me to apologize for doing this; or for what I've said and when and why. I'm sorry to disappoint, but no. Not going to. I'm not being stubborn, I'm being resolute, and I have my reasonings for taking this firm of a stand here and now which I don't choose to share with any of you at this time.

Just know that I did what I felt was necessary, I stand by what I've said and done (the whole thing) and I'm not taking any of it back. So again, if your looking for a certain type of outcome from me concerning this (whatever your reasons); sorry to disappoint, but no ... most likely, whatever you're looking for from me isn't going to be happening and you'll just need to make do with what you get.

However ... please don't allow what I do (or don't do) to stop any of you from talking, speaking, out and yes - even judging - me, the situation, EVERYTHING - please continue to speak out about all that you've determined things are, and why.

It's great!

It really is "all good!"

[jimboloco]

I gotta agree with the passion angle
ecpecially where it comes to social injustice
ain't no fun in hatred
or degrading attitudes

when i want to pray
what should i say?

the lady show her countenance upon you
and give you peace?

the baptism of a child without ritual
a journey into faith
and so on
jesus' humor
first do no harm
when hanging with dharma bums

[Doreen Peri]

Deb said

came, passed a judgment about people you care for, and further more my judgment was/is that they've came up short, and could/should do better.

Clearly, you do not like the outcome, or that I've done this (which requires a shared agreement of whether I should or shouldn't be judging others): but - now that I've done this; the question(s) then are: Was I accurate? Was/is my judgment sound?

I think I am being accurate and sound ... but if I'm not, and I'm wrong, I want to know.

In my opinion, I don't like it when people judge each other. That's my opinion so you wanted to know. People do it all the time, though, so what can I do about it?

My father also always said, "If you can't say anything nice about someone, don't say anything at all." I thought Dad was a wise man.

But hey, they world is filled with people who judge other people and if you want to do that, Deb, that's your prerogative. Just don't be surprised when you speak judgements that are negative about people and they react as if they've been offended.

If people say negative things about me, I hope they'll do it behind my back. I really don't want to know about it, frankly.

I hate it.. and I mean absolutely HATE it when someone tells me I "should" do anything or be anything and I particularly hate it when someone tells me I've "fallen short" and that I can be a better person than I am.

I'm just me, yanno? People who tell me stuff like that... well, I tell them "screw you. Who are you to judge me!?"

I had a friend once... he would always say to people in our little group of friends that he thought someone in the group (it didn't matter which one, which day, whoever was his choice to single out that day)... had "potential". "You have potential," he'd say and then continue describing all the areas where he thought they'd "fallen short" as a person. None of us liked this about him.

Once I went out with him alone to go see/hear some jazz music. I told him, "Gary, yanno when you say that potential crap, people get offended. In my opinion, you've fallen short of your potential by putting people down like that."

He didn't like that statement much. I guess he was on the other side of what he was doing to other people and it didn't sit with him well. He got up from the bar and left me there. He had driven so I had to take a cab back home.

I didn't communicate with him for many years after that. Apparently my statement offended him. It was sad because I really liked him a lot.

Years later, I got in touch with him. He had had a major car accident. He was lucky to be alive. I wonder now if he still says things to people like that. I hope not.

As I said, Deb, I consider you a friend. I'm not trying to say anything negative to you. I'm only trying to say that THIS fits EXACTLY into what the theme of this thread is... into what YOU are defending.

WORDS are powerful. People should be careful when they speak because offending people is not what the goal of a discussion should be.

Do you think Imus gives a shit if he offends people with his words? Probably not because he's just joking! It's schtick!

But when people are NOT joking... when they are serious with their words, judgementalness can be taken seriously by those who are judged and that's not funny at all.

My 2¢.

And as my Dad also used to say, "Can we move on?" ... lol

hey, do whatever you want.. I'm just talking as a PERSON here, not as the owner of this site or anything. Just to let you know. I have a HARD time participating on my own site because I think people here think I'm the COP or something like that.

Carry on and say whatever you want. I just expressed my opinion, that's all. Since you said you'd like to know, I told you what I thought.

Peace n Love....

Can everybody kiss and make up?

[mnaz]

Smoooch!!!

Exactly. It's been tolerating, and now that is all changing; it's n longer being tolerated as it once was.

Defend this statement. What exactly is "no longer being tolerated"? Using the word "ho"? Only certain people of certain races of certain ages using the word? What spasmodic wellspring of enlightenment are we witnessing, O enlightened one? Will rappers no more misogynize and comics never again utter the cosmically offensive word? Or are they simply next on the list and we simply had to start somewhere?... perhaps with this un-hip crusty old radio cowboy, tone-deaf in the latest slang for example?...

What shocked me, was coming in here and finding out that Cecil, the S8 resident guru, not only "tolerates Imus prejudiced and attacking comments for so many years" but support his right to be that way towards others as well. I found that shocking; couple that with insensitivity about a subject matter everyone was admitting they personally knew anything about (but continued to talk about anyway) appalling.

What shocks me here is that (A) you manipulate words from different sources so as to put words in Cecil's mouth that he did not speak, and (B) you outrageously extrapolate from that manipulation the assertion that Cecil must therefore support prejudiced and attacking comments, and by extension, a "bigoted" world POV. Then again, you oughtta know. You are indeed skilled in the art of attacking comments.

However, after reading his and soosen's replies in this thread, I do indeed view Cecil as a bigot, racist, and sexist and consider him a hypocrite.

Just more of the same. I have to ask... Did you read these posts in their entirety? Did you take that extra pause before loading your guns?

Free speech is not being taking away here. What's changing is that 'bar room' style talking is no longer being considered acceptable on public radio/TV

.

I agree. And it is an ongoing process, like anything else.

He didn't single out all poets; he singled out black, woman poet: Maya Angelou. He didn't make fun of all doctors; he singled out the doctor who was taking care of his own adopted children (who ended up suing him for slander btw).

Maya Angelou
Serena & Venus Williams
Sen. Barack Obama
Hillary Clinton
The "scummy little money-grubbing Jewish bastards" at CBS

All specific people, not a random group; each one not a white "Christian" male - just like him.

Are you telling me that he's never singled out any "white" guys? I think he has, but I'll go back and check it again, to make sure.

That others here can be so unaware of all this ... so unaware of mine and how others ways of feeling/thinking, ways of being. Again: shocking/appalling (sad and pathetic). Why not? Why don't you (you=group meaning - not simply person specific) know this? Why weren't you (you=group meaning - not simply person specific) aware?

You're really enjoying a chance to punish us, aren't you?

It's what's being said, the meaning behind it; who's saying it where ; to whom - and most of why - that's offensive. Not just to me... but to many MANY others.

How many? Who decides?

This isn't just a "Deb" thing ... this is an important issue to many MANY people. If you walk away with anything from this thread - walk away with that understanding.

This is an important issue, for many reasons, for many people, and making light of it and belittling it/us over it is insulting and demeaning to those of us who have and hold deeper different feelings, ideas, and thoughts about then subject than you (group you) do.

So please respect our differences - and show your respect us by not making light/fun of either the situation or those within it, and by taking the time to learn more about it before you speak out.

I couldn't have said it better myself Deb.

[mnaz]

Critical thinking is important; necessary.

Agreed.

Have I based my decisions up sound and genuine facts and evidence; or have I based them foundless assertions and assumptions. Am I able to support my opinions with hard and clear facts; or am I simply stating conjectures and opinions without evidence? Have I taken the time, made the effort to read and familiarize myself on as many aspects of the situation as possible so as to gain an appropriately critically and sound base before I began my judging, or have I only used a few, selected sources as my base of reference?

You tell me.

I came, passed a judgment about people you care for, and further more my judgment was/is that they've came up short, and could/should do better.

And by extension, "we" also came up short, in your summary judgment.

Clearly, you do not like the outcome, or that I've done this (which requires a shared agreement of whether I should or shouldn't be judging others): but - now that I've done this; the question(s) then are: Was I accurate? Was/is my judgment sound?

You tell me.

Don't overlook: this is an open to the public message board. So they were not just sitting around some place together, having a private have a chit-chat ... though I think because you don't a get a lot of traffic it tends to feel that way. And when you do things out it public that is offensive to others - some times, some of those others are going to confront you; and it's not very likely that's it going to be a pleasant experience for anyone when that happens.

I couldn't have said it better myself, Deb.

It really is "all good!"

Why yes it is... isn't it? Will you stop shooting now?

Here's relevant article I ran across...

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... 90,00.html

[mousey1]

Well, the ends don't justify the means, not now nor have they ever.

You lambaste Imus and his ilk. Paint Hester, mt and sooz with an unkind brush in the name of all that's righteous and holy. And then apparently can't see the similarities between your bad behavior and Imus. Sauce for the goose Deb. No, you didn't say nappy-headed ho, but you've done plenty of your own name-calling and labeling here.

Cruel remarks, insults, put-downs are just as bad in defense of a just cause and perhaps are even worse than saying something stupid and in bad taste out of ignorance. You do it willfully and self righteously and without a drop of remorse. And worse still your cause loses ground because of it. I'm having a difficult time discerning any difference between your behavior and Imus'.

And no, I don't want to judge you, but you seem to be poisoning your own well. Your tenacity is laudable but not at the expense of others good names and your own for that matter.

You hurt feelings and continue to hurt feelings and why? To prove some noble point? Points won like that aren't worth spit.